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101K views 1K replies 56 participants last post by  bayoucity 
#1 ·
So, has Cadillac really cracked the 3 Series' code?

http://www.totalcarscore.com/car-reviews/comparison-tests/entry-luxury-sport-sedan-comparison-test

"Shadowing the BMW 335i in terms of both intuitive feedback as well as overall ride quality and handling confidence is the 2013 Cadillac ATS. If you think you might have misread that previous sentence, go back and read it again - slowly. Just to be 100 percent clear, Cadillac has created a sport sedan that is, dynamically, right on top of the BMW 3 Series. How close is it? The ATS is closer than the previous challenger to the 3 Series' supremacy when it comes to sublime handling finesse - the Infiniti G37. Again, we're talking shades of gray here, shades we could only uncover because we drove all three in such close proximity to each other. The G37's extra weight is the likely culprit in placing it third, as it still feels like a first class sport sedan...unless you drive it aggressively right after driving an ATS or 3 Series, aggressively."
 
#968 ·
That's about how I thought that would go. The GM would fall right on it's ratings which would nearly mirror the N20 which is underrated.
 
#970 ·
Not surprising to us, but GM has advertised its 2.0T engine being more powerful than the BMW 2.0T. I don't know if it will continue to do so, since on paper it is still true.

BMW can easily revise their power ratings for the 328i, but it will eat into the 335i territory, unless of course they also revise the 335i power ratings.
 
#978 ·
If Caddy really wanted to one-up BMW, they would go with a hydraulic steering rack, or get the EPS from the Camaro ZL1, which is supposedly good.

Instead they are using the exact same EPS system BMW is using.
 
#1,003 · (Edited)
It's only the 2.0L non-turbo that recommends regular fuel, so that's no help to most buyers. I think any car that recommends premium can take regular, so that's no different than any car.

nothing wrong with 21/31, and BMW has always impressed with fuel economy. I'm amazed I can get 30 mpg highway on my car.
 
#996 · (Edited)
^Of course the traction control can fully be disabled. You hold it down for 10 seconds, i have done it, but what do i know, i only own the car:rolleyes:. Stop giving out false info on the F30:slap: and stick to the e90 section
 
#997 ·
From the F30 Manual

DSC Dynamic Stability
Control​
The concept​
DSC prevents traction loss in the driving wheels
when driving away and accelerating.
DSC also recognizes unstable vehicle conditions,
such as fishtailing or nose-diving. Subject
to physical limits, DSC helps to keep the vehicle
on a steady course by reducing engine speed
and by applying brakes at individual wheels.
Adjust your driving style to the situation
An appropriate driving style is always the
responsibility of the driver.
The laws of physics cannot be repealed, even
with DSC.
Therefore, do not reduce the additional safety
margin by driving in a risky manner.***9664;​
Indicator/warning lamps​
The indicator lamp flashes: DSC controls
the drive forces and brake forces.
The indicator lamp lights up: DSC has
failed.​
Deactivating DSC: DSC OFF​
When DSC is deactivated, driving stability is reduced
during acceleration and when driving in
bends.
To increase vehicle stability, activate DSC again
as soon as possible.​
Deactivating DSC​
Press and hold the button, but not longer
than approx. 10 seconds, until the
indicator lamp for DSC OFF lights up in the instrument
cluster and DSC OFF is displayed.
The DSC system is switched off.​
Activating DSC​
Press the button.
DSC OFF and the DSC OFF indicator
lamp go out.​
Controls​
Driving stability control systems

104
Online Edition for Part no. 01 40 2 608 633 - 11 09 490​
Indicator/warning lamps​
When DSC is deactivated, DSC OFF is displayed
in the instrument cluster.
The indicator lamp lights up: DSC is deactivated.​
DTC Dynamic Traction
Control​
The concept​
The DTC system is a version of the DSC in which
forward momentum is optimized.
The system ensures maximum forward momentum
on special road conditions, e.g., unplowed
snowy roads, but driving stability is limited.
It is therefore necessary to drive with appropriate
caution.
You may find it useful to briefly activate DTC under
the following special circumstances:
***9655; When driving in slush or on uncleared,
snow-covered roads.
***9655; When rocking the vehicle or driving off in
deep snow or on loose surfaces.
***9655; When driving with snow chains.​
Deactivating/activating DTC Dynamic
Traction Control​
Activating the Dynamic Traction Control DTC
provides maximum traction on loose ground.
Driving stability is limited during acceleration
and when driving in bends.​
Activating DTC​
Press the button.
TRACTION is displayed in the instrument
cluster and the indicator lamp for DSC
OFF lights up.​
Deactivating DTC​
Press the button again.
TRACTION and the DSC OFF indicator
lamp go out.​
 
#1,005 ·
I had an E90 335, never driven a F30 335, but from what i have read the exhaust is louder than the E90.

Anyone that has owned both want to weigh in?
 
#1,020 · (Edited)
But . . . but . . . the BMW hearse has an MT and sport suspension. Truly the (last) ride of choice of a true enthusiast.

Plus in the posh cemetary I plan to be buried in all the other dead people will laugh at me if I show up in a Cadillac.



CA
 
#1,023 ·
But . . . but . . . the BMW hearse has an MT and sport suspension. Truly the (last) ride of choice of a true enthusiast.

Plus in the posh cemetary I plan to be buried in all the other dead people will laugh at me if I show up in a Cadillac.

CA
Not really crazy about the 5-series Captain...:D
 
#1,024 · (Edited)
Here it is, MT head to head, ATS 2.0T vs. F30 328i, manual Only.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq__8kTTbBA&feature=youtu.be

ATS lets itself down with bad MT tranny, which is not a surprise. Several reviews mentioned it, Top Gear even advised not to buy an ATS MT.

But all of them loved the ATS AT, particularly its sport mode. Hope they do AT vs. AT soon.

How did GM screw up the MT though, not as if they don't know how to?
 
#1,033 · (Edited)
At least in our M3, I have found the MT to be a bit notchy at times and the shifter linkage could use a shorter throw. The clutch pedal action is good. I much preferred the MT in my ZO6 (sometimes notchy until I would row though the gears a bit with the clutch pedal depressed), and I now much prefer the MT in my Porsche (very smooth and has a great touch - very easy to manipulate) more than the ZO6.
 
#1,037 ·
The Chevy Cruze Eco's 6MT was the most fluid MT I had driven, during the 6 months I was driving it for work. Although it was geared for fuel economy, not performance.

I am thinking GM had given up on MT for ATS, they did not even bother to offer MT for the 3.6 and 2.5. The 2.5 probably can use the MT the most. On the flip side, since they clearly did not make much effort on the MT tranny, they had to pour more resources into the AT, so the AT buyers might have lucked out.

I mean they have to, else how are they going to sell it?
 
#1,056 ·
:freakdanc Yeah...I'm still not considered old! I tell my kids that I'm still too young to be a grandparent. Maybe in 10-15 years I'll be ready.
 
#1,079 ·
To you, I'm young for only about another 2.5 weeks. :(

.
 
#1,093 ·
If the ATS turns out a lame competitor, I might be forced to get an M3, or ATS-V, watch out who would look like a fool:) I have up to a year to decide.

Please don't fool yourself thinking if you have a 335i, your are driving a performance car. A 3 series without LSD is nothing. On a 60-second course my lowly 328i usually only trail a well tuned 335i or 335d (yes with tunes) by 3 to 4 seconds, but they easily trail a well equipped 325i, or Miata, or even a Civic, by another 6 to 8 seconds. Which is why my next car must have LSD.

At least BJ knows our proper place.
Wait are you talking about AutoX? If you are a couple seconds is a lot and you cant really compare cars on AutoX since a lot of it relies on the driver, unless you are talking about the same driver.

Also I know its not much but its better than nothing in Sport+ it activates the eDif which simulates a real LSD.

I could probably bet that a 335i would beat a CTS-V on a race course not Drag or Nascar but a real race course or AutoX.
 
#1,108 ·
I could probably bet that a 335i would beat a CTS-V on a race course not Drag or Nascar but a real race course or AutoX.
No. The thing is with GM, when they build a specialty car, like the CTS-V or the Camaro ZL1, they aren't hampered by the usual GM bureaucracy, and they build a really good car.

The Camaro ZL1 is vastly better than the regular Camaro V8, which is kinda crappy on a race track. Same with the CTS-V.

I'm expecting the same of the ATS-V, it will likely rival the M3, if not beat it.
 
#1,054 ·
It could be those age 47 (like those who drive BMWs) are more likely to drive an AT. Most of them have to battle traffic during commute, and spouses who they must please, both factors are against having an MT.

Those who are older don't have to deal with traffic, or listen to their wives anymore:)
 
#1,055 · (Edited)
No, we still have to listen to our wives. It's just that we make sure they also have the car of their dreams.
 
#1,058 ·
Ms. Audio is perfectly comfortable driving an MT. We shared MT cars for years.

CA
 
#1,059 ·
That MT reviewer sucks, he said BMW manuals were always bad. And he said the ATS needs to shift into 4th at 55mph, and that it has more power in 2nd gear. Duh, cause 2nd gear (not 4th) is shorter than the BMW.

MT is a waste of paper.
 
#1,062 ·
FWIW If I pushed the redline I could reach 60 mph in 3rd gear in my 1992 honda civic.

If anyone saw it, Motorweek also gave the ATS a glowing review. Whether the ATS edges out the 3-series or comes up just short doesn't really matter. It is clear that with the ATS Cadillac has "announced its presence with authority." The ATS is a serious car that presents BMW with some very real competition. BMW had better keep its eye on the ball.

Nothing wrong with a little healthy competition.
 
#1,066 ·
It is clear that with the ATS Cadillac has "announced its presence with authority." The ATS is a serious car that presents BMW with some very real competition. BMW had better keep its eye on the ball.


Ha ha ha. Very funny, good one.

Cadillac has just gone down the Honda Element rabbit hole, designing a car to find out there's no audience. The Element was going to be a 22 year old's surfboard carrier at the beach and instead turned out to be his grandfathers wheelchair transport at the old age home. Suicide doors, carpetless vinyl flooring, low-riding running boards, what was supposed to be a college boys shag-wagon was a total misread and a colossal bust.

Cadillac's core customer is a 65 year old who likes a large, spongy ride. Yeah, so let's make a small, firm car. The Cadillac owner just discovered the internet, is afraid of cellphones. Cool, so let's fill the car with gadgetry. The Cadillac brand represents passivity and relaxation. Great, so let's make an edgy sportscar.

Going after the BMW 3 Series is a daunting enough challenge without making all these mistakes, going to be epic with them.

BJ
 
#1,065 ·
We akways had Manual Transmission cars in NYC and AT cars (generally Jaguars) in Florida. The lastest Jaguar, an XKR with the ZF AT and paddle shifters) really made us think twice about whether we should get an AT or an MT when we purchased the 335i.

We did a bit of research and test drove both. As much as I liked the XKR I was convinced that a "real driver" drove an MT. At the time we were orderng the 335i we were at a party at a friends home and the AT vs. MT subject came up in conversation. As it turned out the best and most experienced drivers allmost exclusively had ATs in their street cars. We ordered the 335i with a Steptronic and I have never regretted that decision.

I totally understand why some people prefer MTs and would never try to talk somebody out of one but at this stage I really don't see any advantage to an MT other than personal preference. I do think, however, that learning how to drive an MT is valuable skill to master if you are serious about driving and want to learn car conrol and vehicle dynamics.

I also think that some cars are meant to have ATs (i.e. the 750iL) some are meant to have MTs (i.e. Miatas) and some match up well with either (i.e. a 3 Series).

CA
 
#1,073 · (Edited)
We akways had Manual Transmission cars in NYC and AT cars (generally Jaguars) in Florida. The lastest Jaguar, an XKR with the ZF AT and paddle shifters) really made us think twice about whether we should get an AT or an MT when we purchased the 335i.

We did a bit of research and test drove both. As much as I liked the XKR I was convinced that a "real driver" drove an MT. At the time we were orderng the 335i we were at a party at a friends home and the AT vs. MT subject came up in conversation. As it turned out the best and most experienced drivers allmost exclusively had ATs in their street cars. We ordered the 335i with a Steptronic and I have never regretted that decision.

I totally understand why some people prefer MTs and would never try to talk somebody out of one but at this stage I really don't see any advantage to an MT other than personal preference. I do think, however, that learning how to drive an MT is valuable skill to master if you are serious about driving and want to learn car conrol and vehicle dynamics.

I also think that some cars are meant to have ATs (i.e. the 750iL) some are meant to have MTs (i.e. Miatas) and some match up well with either (i.e. a 3 Series).
CA
Right! My wife's everyday car has an AT, as does our Tahoe and Suburban. But, I always have a fun car with a manual transmission like my ZO6 did and now my 911 does. For me, MT are just more engaging and fun to drive, when I'm looking to have fun driving my car.
 
#1,077 ·
GM has published its lease support (24 mo lease) for ATS, same high residual as the new 3, not surprising since ALG rated them the same, both have higher residuals than A4 and C class.

But the ATS 24 mo lease is no match to the Infiniti G's two year leases. Need to wait and see how fast GM improves the deal, once inventory piles up.
 
#1,116 · (Edited)
The game is far from over. The game has just begun and it appears that Cadillac has come up with a much better car than most people suspected they would.

Reviews like Motor Trend, Car and Driver, etc. can only be used as a guide. When two cars are as close as the ATS and the F30 in the opinion of the reviewers you will have to drive them both yourself and come to your own conclusions.

Of course this is a BMW forum and the reaction to a comparo will usually result in it being treated as gospel when good things are said about BMW and the reviewer being called an incompetant idiot when he says something bad about BMW.

I am not taking anybody's word on which car is better until I have a chance to drive both which is unlikely to happen in the forseeable future.

CA
 
#1,125 ·
Maybe a even better idea is you stay out of this kind discussions, so the voice of many long time BMW 3 drivers can be heard by BMW, without them constantly being reminded how a bunch of BMW drivers are such snobs?
"...so the voice of many long-time 3 Series drivers can be heard by BMW..."

And that, my friends, is the agenda. The Cult Of E90 think that BMW is watching Bimmerfest, scouring threads for feedback. And they think that this forum filled with F30 owners is the place to sh-t all over our cars because....shh....big brother is watching and he's going to use the shrink-ray and restore the 3 Series back to E36 proportions.

dtc: Your agenda is pointless. All it is doing is aggravating otherwise-happy F30 owners. Stop. Stop now. You think you're quest is noble. It isn't. It's just annoying.

BJ
 
#1,127 ·
He doesn't know what his agenda is. He flops back and forth between whatever the FOTM is when compared with the 3 series. Buying a 2011 328i just before the superior model comes out will make you bitter. I am pretty sure he is just unhappy with his own car and comes here to make himself feel better.
 
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