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So now that the F30 has been out a while..

49K views 399 replies 46 participants last post by  Rover 
#1 ·
Thoughts on f30 vs E90? I presume that many of you have been on test drives, had loaners, etc by now.

I just spent a week in an F30, do I have somerliminary opinions.
 
#91 ·
I didn't know that. I have a DCT in the 335is. My son's 2011 M3 sedan with MT does not have it either.
 
#99 ·
Having just purchased an E92, I was looking at a variety of diesel models. The recent 320d with manual transmission has auto start stop. The automatic does not. I could only find 325Ds and 330Ds in automatic versions and none of them had auto start stop.
It actually disables itself quite a lot in my car. For example, it doesn't start working until the engine has warmed up. It also disables itself if the temperature is 3 degrees C or less. Finally, if you're stuck in queues of traffic for long periods of time, it disables itself to prevent draining the battery.
Obviously a quick press of the button under the radio also switches it off if it annoys you to the point where you can't live with it.
 
#105 ·
yeah i was thinking the same thing, theres a reason why lightbulbs only die when you turn them on. its because of thermal stress. i know hard drives last a lot longer if you leave them constantly running instead of turning them on/off all the time. although im sure the BMW engineers have taken this into account. kind of seems like a huge gimmick to me, i cant imagine that you are saving that much energy or gas just by having the engine turned off for a few seconds when you stop.
 
#106 ·
One assumes the engineers at BMW did their homework on all the drive components which would be affected by stop/start. Things like starter solenoid drives, brushes, and the starter drive gear and bearings, and the ring gear on the flex plate are going to see a major increase in wear. Maybe they had some extra engineers sitting around with nothing to do. The guys who worked on the original 335i HPFP design were probably available.
 
#108 ·
Does BMW's Start/Stop use the starter motor et al? I know there was at least one start/stop system out there that stopped the engine with one cylinder just past TDC with an appropriate fuel charge and did the restart by firing the spark plug instead of spinning the starter system.

I will confess to having paid absolutely no attention past that to the start/stop systems, and have been running along fat, drunk, and stupid assuming they all worked that way.
 
#109 ·
Does BMW's Start/Stop use the starter motor et al? I know there was at least one start/stop system out there that stopped the engine with one cylinder just past TDC with an appropriate fuel charge and did the restart by firing the spark plug instead of spinning the starter system.

I will confess to having paid absolutely no attention past that to the start/stop systems, and have been running along fat, drunk, and stupid assuming they all worked that way.
Hi Zooks. My response is "sorta". At shut off the computer makes sure the pistons are optimally aligned in their rotation so that one is ready to fire off almost instantly.
When the starter is engaged it does not take even a single full revolution of the crank to start the engine. A lot less energy is needed to start a fully warmed up engine than it takes for the first cold start of the day. There is some fraction of reduction in wear as a result.
Your idea about starting takes into account two of the three things you need for 'bang'. One is spark, check. The second is fuel, check. The last is compression, long gone due to leak down.
 
#113 · (Edited)
WTF?

Headliners? Start/stop buttons? Buttresses, asses and droopy interiors? What about the drive? BMW know their customers alright..."The Ultimate Driving Machine" is just a tagline for flacid commercials and country club bars now!

I test drove the 335i and found it a good, solid and completely sterile experience. The suspension is better than the E9X, but the handling gives you the feeling you get after chatting with DSX for 20 minutes - distant and slightly numb. I got pissed off looking for the best gear out of the eight ("Eight gears, you say, wow! Jolly good, old chap!, When do we tee orrff?") available to get the engine to pull, and the vibrating wheel for a warning drove me crazy - I thought I had broken the brakes/breaks! I like the way the M brakes are the standard brakes, just painted blue. I have a bad habit of studying brakes these days and wondering how quickly one can change the pads!

It is a good solid sedan, with enough of a nod towards "sport" to make Auntie Mildred spill her coffee on the way to her bridge match while you explain how well work is going these days, but not much more. The 3 series isn't dead yet, but the grave digger has certainly gone to the shed to get his shovel...

I hope the new M-cars are much, much tighter...
 
#114 ·
WTF?

Headliners? Start/stop buttons? Buttresses, asses and droopy interiors? What about the drive? BMW know their customers alright..."The Ultimate Driving Machine" is just a tagline for flacid commercials and country club bars now!

I test drove the 335i and found it a good, solid and completely sterile experience. The suspension is better than the E9X, but the handling gives you the feeling you get after chatting with DSX for 20 minutes - distant and slightly numb. I got pissed off looking for the best gear out of the eight ("Eight gears, you say, wow! Jolly good, old chap!, When do we tee orrff?") available to get the engine to pull, and the vibrating wheel for a warning drove me crazy - I thought I had broken the brakes/breaks! I like the way the M brakes are the standard brakes, just painted blue. I have a bad habit of studying brakes these days and wondering how quickly one can change the pads!

It is a good solid sedan, with enough of a nod towards "sport" to make Auntie Mildred spill her coffee on the way to her bridge match while you explain how well work is going these days, but not much more. The 3 series isn't dead yet, but the grave digger has certainly gone to the shed to get his shovel...


The F30 is what you call "refined", especially the model badged as the "Luxury" line. You wouldn't understand.

The new M3 is rumored to only be made available with an automatic transmission. BMW has finally figured out who their customers are. It's about time.

BJ
 
#124 ·
I drive F30's all day. The steering is horrible. It drives like a boat. Putting the car into sport just males the car feel kinda weird. Steering weight becomes heavy for no reason.The car will fit you perfectly of you are 80 years old And want to pretend you're 40.
 
#133 ·
Ridiculous.

The F30 is far more nimble than the E90, it feels lighter, faster, and more maneuverable. BMW built it to succeed, to satisfy its core audience and it's loyal buyers. If you're not one of them, that's fine, but for the vast majority of ex-E90 owners it is a complete breath of fresh air. From its design to its comforts to its technology to its ride to its acceleration, it's the perfect car for what we want it to be.

The 3 Series has always been about the combination of luxury and sport, and for too long the definition of "sport" has meant an uncomfortable ride with a sparse interior and an uncompetitive feature set. That's all been addressed now, truly is the Ultimate Driving Machine. The key word being "driving", as in "I have to drive my kids to soccer practice, my wife to the mall, and myself to the golf course". The 3 Series is no longer pretending to be someone's weekend track car. Thank God for that.

BJ
 
#129 ·
Good points CA, but I disagree in regard to the EPS (electric power steering). I can only think of one good reason for its existance and that is it might result in a few tenths more mpg. So doing adds to the cost, greatly increases the complexity, and completely separates the driver from the road. I am unable to imagine how some feedback gimmickry can recreate that connection.
For those who don't know, EPS used to use an electric powered power steering pump. The mechanical and hydraulic systems were otherwise the same as they've been for 50 years. In fact, total failure of the EPS system would still result in a steerable car.
Not any more. Now there is no steel connecting the driver with the wheels. The steering wheel is now a big...sensor. It senses which way you've turned it, how far and how fast. It sends this information to another of many computers (yes, there's one just for steering now!) where the computer looks at vehicle speed, direction, and stability data from the DSC computer and the computer decides how far to turn your steering rack via the stepper motor now replacing the input shaft on the steering box! Failure of this system will result in an unsteerable car. Of course, many redundant systems will ensure that there is never a failure...
 
#130 ·
Good points CA, but I disagree in regard to the EPS (electric power steering). I can only think of one good reason for its existance and that is it might result in a few tenths more mpg. So doing adds to the cost, greatly increases the complexity, and completely separates the driver from the road. I am unable to imagine how some feedback gimmickry can recreate that connection.
For those who don't know, EPS used to use an electric powered power steering pump. The mechanical and hydraulic systems were otherwise the same as they've been for 50 years. In fact, total failure of the EPS system would still result in a steerable car.
Not any more. Now there is no steel connecting the driver with the wheels. The steering wheel is now a big...sensor. It senses which way you've turned it, how far and how fast. It sends this information to another of many computers (yes, there's one just for steering now!) where the computer looks at vehicle speed, direction, and stability data from the DSC computer and the computer decides how far to turn your steering rack via the stepper motor now replacing the input shaft on the steering box! Failure of this system will result in an unsteerable car. Of course, many redundant systems will ensure that there is never a failure...
Interesting info.

As I stated I have no experience with the steeing on the F30 so my post was pure specultation.

I don't necessarily agree that computer connected steering has to lack communication or road feel. I have driven both Jaguars and Cadillacs (and the 750iL) that have compurer controlled suspensions. The 750 system is very good but the systems in the Jaguar XKR-S and the Cadillac CTS-V are amazing and are as good (and probably better) than what can be accomplished with conventional suspension tuning. I imagine that similar advances can be made in electric steering but of course as I am prone to say "nothing is impossible when you don't know what you're talking about".

I have spent a fair amount of time speaking to people from BMW and attending market research events. BMW is very aware that a significanly large portion of their market buys the cars because of the driving dynamics and they are definetely interested in keeping that market segment happy. They are also aware that most people use the cars for basic transportation and are not going to tolerate a car that breaks or shakes the fillings out of their teeth when it encounters a poor road surface. BMW definitely wants to retain its image as "The Ultimate Driving Machine" even as they add more comfort and luxury features.

I have also spoken to people at Lexus and they are aware that they have lost their way and are regarded by many as a manufacturer of bland cars that are not fun to drive. They are trying very hard to loose that image.

The reality is that Lexus, at this point in time, is more interested in emulating BMW than BMW is in emulating Lexus.
What both manufactures would like to accomplish is to produce a car with the refinement of a Lexus and the driving dynamics of a BMW.

I am going to guess that if the new 5 Series and 3 Series are being thought of as two soft and detached that is something that BMW will not be happy with and will not be a trend that will continue.
 
#137 ·
I have to admit that I don't "get" the 1 Series or understand where its market is. I had a friend who had a 128 convertible for a while and it was not a bad car but I don't think that it appeals to the traditional 3 Series buyer.

It does not appear to be selling very well. In Manhattan there are BMWs everywhere. If I stand in front of my building there is almost sure to be a BMW at every light change. I see lots of 3 Series, 7 Series, 5 Series, X5s, etc. but I probably have seen a total of less than ten 1 Series in the past year.

CA
 
#143 · (Edited)
I have to admit that I don't "get" the 1 Series or understand where its market is. I had a friend who had a 128 convertible for a while and it was not a bad car but I don't think that it appeals to the traditional 3 Series buyer.

It does not appear to be selling very well. In Manhattan there are BMWs everywhere. If I stand in front of my building there is almost sure to be a BMW at every light change. I see lots of 3 Series, 7 Series, 5 Series, X5s, etc. but I probably have seen a total of less than ten 1 Series in the past year.

CA
The problem in the US is that there is no sedan. Not sure what the coupe vs. sedan stats are for the 3 Series, but perhaps 70% of all 3's have four-doors. If BMW launches a 1 Series RWD Sedan for $29,000 with E46 proportions that should do the trick.

The F30 is the larger/softer/pricier E90 for 40-50 year olds and the 1 Sedan is the smaller/tighter/cheaper E90 for the 25-40 crowd. Split the E90 in two, hit a lower pricepoint, satisfy the existing userbase, attract a younger userbase, win-win.

BJ
 
#142 ·
My work here is done...:D

The 1-series is a pure European car. Perfect for the narrow streets and B-class roads. One couldn't drive through any the roads of Germany or Austria without tripping over a couple of the new 1 series hatchbacks. It looks good - I hope it comes here. Unfortunately, I didn't take note of the colour of the headliner.

The best looking BMW over there while I was visiting...the new 6 series coupe! Oarsome!
 
#145 ·
For most city driving I could be very happy with EPS. At the track with DSC off, accelerating out of a bumpy corner, or when the steering gets twitchy, when traction approaches 100% and the car is skittering sideways, I need to know now exactly what's happening with the tires and the only device which tells me that is the steering wheel.

I have 36K miles on my car. I put about 500 of them on at the track. Am I going to let 1.4% of my driving dictate what I have to have for the other 98.6%? You betcha. I've been a Bimmer fan for a long time, and a Beamer fan before that. I've been willing to accept a lot of compromises over the years, but I'm not buying any car with EPS until fahren isn't freude anymore
I have a feeling Turner Motorsports is not going to be adding EPS to their race cars any time soon.
 
#149 · (Edited)
h
For most city driving I could be very happy with EPS. At the track with DSC off, accelerating out of a bumpy corner, or when the steering gets twitchy, when traction approaches 100% and the car is skittering sideways, I need to know now exactly what's happening with the tires and the only device which tells me that is the steering wheel.

I have 36K miles on my car. I put about 500 of them on at the track. Am I going to let 1.4% of my driving dictate what I have to have for the other 98.6%? You betcha. I've been a Bimmer fan for a long time, and a Beamer fan before that. I've been willing to accept a lot of compromises over the years, but I'm not buying any car with EPS until fahren isn't freude anymore
I have a feeling Turner Motorsports is not going to be adding EPS to their race cars any time soon.
I am not about to let 1.4% of my driving dictate the other 98.6% (which I guess would qualify as "normal" driving :rofl:)

The last thing I want is a race car to drive on the street. I do however want a car that is responsive to drive on the street and as much as I hated the stock suspension on my 335i I loved the steering feel and if the new F30 is a significant step backwards in that direction that would be a deal breaker for me.

At this point the 335i with its Koni FSD shocks and Conti DWS tires is exactly the car that I though I was buying in 2007. I have no illusions about a 335i being a track car or a race car and that is why mine is a convertible with an AT. Of course the fact that I have access to a track and to track cars and the fact that I have to drive my street cars on New York City's ravaged roads are major factors. If I lived where you live I would be much more willing to let the 1.4% play a larger role in the decision making process.

CA
 
#151 ·
I am not a fellow who will take his car to the track, and I'm not even particularly aggressive in around-town driving. But, for me, EPS was a major turnoff from moment one. The wheel feels absolutely dead from about the 11 0'clock to 2 0'clock positions. The overall sense is that it is fairly numb, slow to react, and kind of vague.

And, as I've said, it is still one of the best EPS systems I've driven.

EPS just doesn't belong on anything that has "fun" in it's mission statement.
 
#156 ·
I don't really care too much about the technical differences between the E90 and F30 platforms, all I really need to know is that the F30 is hideous.

Aesthetics plays a huge roll for me in determining what cars I will consider purchasing, and the front end of the F30 removes it from ever being considered as an option. It's just ugly.
 
#171 ·
I don't understand why some people think the F30 is ugly.

Frankly I never considered any current or recent BMW (including the two I own) to be particularly beautiful but I would not describe any of the current sedans as ugly.
Generic and somewhat ordinary perhaps but definitely not ugly,

CA
 
#174 ·
I don't understand why some people think the F30 is ugly.

Frankly I never considered any current or recent BMW (including the two I own) to be particularly beautiful but I would not describe any of the current sedans as ugly.
Generic and somewhat ordinary perhaps but definitely not ugly,

CA
Me either. While I'm not a big fan of the headlight assembly growing into the kidney grills, it's not THAT big of a deal. I've seen quite a few F30s now. To be honest, even with the one that almost ran over me as I was walking across a professional building driveway, I had to look twice to determine it was an F30 not an E90. Pulling along side one in traffic, the most telling demarcation is to look at the dash for the Nav screen.
 
#194 ·
Bolt, I'm surprised no one has indignantly mentioned your "///L" yet.


I know, and I worked so hard on it too. Those faux-chrome shadows are a b-tch.

Now that we live in a world where BMW isn't pretending anymore, where the 3 Series is an honest car, a luxurious status-symbol for the yuppie crowd without pretending to be a sportscar, with chrome "Luxury" fender badges gleaming in most parts of the world, having an ///L328i isn't that controversial anymore.

BJ
 
#198 ·
Give me a break......The only place "street cred" is important to anyone is in my grandsons high school parking lot. That being said I like the new series & will wait to see what the new M3/4 coupe looks like before I buy one. On the interior the one thing I don't like is the nav screen sticking up out of the dash. Have that in my X3 & think its a poor design compared to the built in one in my 335is.
 
#199 ·
I agree. If BMW thought it was such a great or useful design, then when did they not place the GPS screen on top of the dash like an afterthought in the new 5, 6, ot 7 Series models? Aside from looking cheap, I would think the glare would be a problem with this location?
 
#210 · (Edited)
These cars are totally stock "Family Sedans"



 
#230 ·
Bring out your dead (material)

Judge Randolph: *Consider yourself in Contempt!*
BJ: *Colonel Jessep, did you order the F30?*
Judge Randolph: You *don't* have to answer that question!
BJ: I'll answer the question!
[to Kaffee]
BJ: You want answers?
Kaffee: I think I'm entitled to.
BJ: *You want answers?*
Kaffee: *I want the truth!*
BJ: *You can't handle the truth!*
[pauses]
BJ: Son, we live in a world that has new BMWs, and those BMWs have to be purchased by men with Rolexes. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Machina? I have a greater financial means than you could possibly fathom. You weep for pop-up displays, and you curse the interior trim. You have that ///Luxury. You have the ///Luxury of not knowing what I know. That my F30, while tragic, occasionally turns heads. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, brightens up McDonalds drive-thru. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me in that F30, you need me on that F30. We use words like pop-up display, contrast leather piping, droopy interior lines. We use these words as the backbone of a thread spent defending something we purchased. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who reads and writes under the blanket of the very derision that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up an F30, and impress your neighbors with an entry level premium sedan. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
Kaffee: Did you order the F30?
BJ: With the small engine...
Kaffee: *Did you order the red piping??*
BJ: *You're Goddamn right I did!*
 
#234 ·
Judge Randolph: *Consider yourself in Contempt!*
BJ: *Colonel Jessep, did you order the F30?*
Judge Randolph: You *don't* have to answer that question!
BJ: I'll answer the question!
[to Kaffee]
BJ: You want answers?
Kaffee: I think I'm entitled to.
BJ: *You want answers?*
Kaffee: *I want the truth!*
BJ: *You can't handle the truth!*
[pauses]
BJ: Son, we live in a world that has new BMWs, and those BMWs have to be purchased by men with Rolexes. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Machina? I have a greater financial means than you could possibly fathom. You weep for pop-up displays, and you curse the interior trim. You have that ///Luxury. You have the ///Luxury of not knowing what I know. That my F30, while tragic, occasionally turns heads. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, brightens up McDonalds drive-thru. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me in that F30, you need me on that F30. We use words like pop-up display, contrast leather piping, droopy interior lines. We use these words as the backbone of a thread spent defending something we purchased. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who reads and writes under the blanket of the very derision that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up an F30, and impress your neighbors with an entry level premium sedan. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
Kaffee: Did you order the F30?
BJ: With the small engine...
Kaffee: *Did you order the red piping??*
BJ: *You're Goddamn right I did!*
Brilliant. Good larf.
///M, you've got to re-do the twin turbo/HPFP video with bolt as you-know-who. I laugh out loud just thinking of the fun you could have with the dialogue.
 
#231 ·
You missed your calling ! :rofl:
 
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