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All of these "doesn't handle well enough" comments need some perspective

19K views 228 replies 42 participants last post by  PK2348 
#1 ·
The F30 may not handle with the same level of feel as previous 3's... And I'm not arguing that, as I'm certainly no BMW expert. This is my first 3 (sportline), and I haven't spent enough time with previous 3's to really have an opinion one way or another.

However, let's remember what it's still far better than:

My previous car, a 2004 Mazda 6s, which by all accounts handles far better than any Honda Accord or Toyota Camry, the cars with which it competes... and the F30 kills the Mazda 6S in handling, of course... So the F30 is supposed to be a big step up from this class of car, and it sure as hell is.

It's also way better than my 99 A4 2.8 was, with the Sport Package. And my dad's 2011 Jetta Diesel. And my friend's 2010 G37 sedan, and my other friend's 2008 E300. And my ex's 2004 Volvo S50. Spanks all of them. I could go on and on.

So anyone who is looking to step up from lesser handling cars of a similar size, fear not. This ain't no Accord with a nicer badge.

If you're looking for it to handle as well as your old 3, perhaps not... but that doesn't mean it's "vague" or "disconnected"... it's still one hell of a nice handling car.

Just 2 cents from someone who isn't as expert is these car as you are, and apparently happier with the F30 as a result :p:):):)
 
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#2 ·
...If you're looking for it to handle as well as your old 3, perhaps not... but that doesn't mean it's "vague" or "disconnected"... it's still one hell of a nice handling car...
To add to that:
The latest Car&Driver is just out, with an update to their "Lightning Lap". One of the cars they tested was an F30 335i (sport package). The noted that "even with only the N55 300 hp engine, it was only 0.6s slower around VIR than the previous E90 335is with 320 hp. They absolutely loved the car - the easiest to handle car in this batch, and never a mention of EPS.

Oh, yes. The F30 had the 8 speed auto. Take that you manual cavemen.:bigpimp:
 
#5 ·
The latest Car&Driver is just out, with an update to their "Lightning Lap". One of the cars they tested was an F30 335i (sport package).
Keep in mind the F30 335's 3.13.2 time was bested by the lowly V-6, solid rear axle Ford Mustang at 3:12.5 and even the Chevy Cobalt SS at 3:13.0.

The F30 is a performance car if you have never driven anything with better handling or performance, a merely competent four-door if you have more experience.
 
#6 ·
The v6 Mustang had the shoes and suspension of the GT. The v6 is no longer a dog and is a 13 second car.

The Cobalt SS had the FWD record for the Ring for awhile and made its crank hp at the wheels.

Both cars not to be underestimated.
 
#4 ·
If you're looking for it to handle as well as your old 3, perhaps not... but that doesn't mean it's "vague" or "disconnected"... it's still one hell of a nice handling car.

Just 2 cents from someone who isn't as expert is these car as you are, and apparently happier with the F30 as a result
Bravo.

Keep in mind, 99% of those even mentioning disappointment in handling own E90's, haven't test-driven an F30, and are just parroting what they've read in enthusiast magazines.

The F30 is a fantastic handling car, responds to steering command with precision, sticks to the road like glue, shifts like smooth lightning, torque's like a rocket, and pushes no road bumps or pothole feedback to the driver. It's an amazing car.

BJ
 
#12 · (Edited)
Bravo.

Keep in mind, 99% of those even mentioning disappointment in handling own E90's, haven't test-driven an F30, and are just parroting what they've read in enthusiast magazines.

BJ
Nonsense, almost every one of the E90 drivers who are thinking of replacing, likely have driven an F30 by now:) Even you have continued to complain about your L328i's body roll.
 
#8 ·
: popcorn:
 
#9 ·
No argument here if you are coming from another brand. It's not even a close comparison. There's a reason why all the other car manufacturers chase the 3 series and use it as a benchmark.

Unfortunately, most of the people complaining are the previous owners of 3 series generations looking to upgrade into the latest and greatest. Most find that the current model is not worth upgrading into because they have been spoiled by the even better and greater whole package feel that the previous generations have made legendary. The previous generation 3 series was never the fastest from 0-60, on the track, 1/4 mile, skidpad, slalom, etc... I could go on and on and on about specs and comparisons. It was always considered a drivers car because it's precision of control and balance was unparalleled across all trims- base, sport, M models. It basically was so well designed starting from the chassis, suspension, brakes, engine, interior and exterior that the whole package is a benchmark for others to chase. The amount of driver input was never dulled, delayed or compromised as most are complaining with the new F30. It just seems the target market for this latest generation is more towards the main stream of drivers which drives the most volume of revenue and sales. Can't blame BMW, it's what makes Toyota and Honda lots of money. However, thank god they still provide options to get back to the previous 3 series whole package, higher percision, control with refinement benchmark; add BMW M performance parts. So they have achieved to get into the mainstream market while appeasing their enthusiast followers; even if it requires more customization than previously needed from their older generation 3 series. Just my 2 cents.

Now go customize or enjoy to your own content. :)
 
#21 ·
You are talking about different things.

The F30 not being balanced because it loses some steering feel/feedback? No.

The F30 328 with SPORTS suspension is incredibly balanced. It feels light on it's feet(or nose), changes direction very well and has a controlled tossable feel that is just as good as the E90 ever was. Throw in the torque of the N20 to power out of turns and you have a great thing going. In terms of balance as in all the qualities that makes a sporty sedan, it took a little from column A but gained a lot in other columns.

So the F30 isn't unbalanced, or lost balance or however you were trying to paint it. It just has something different, and a bit less of a quality-steering feel than the E90.

There is such exaggeration round here sometimes, REDUCTION or DECREASE is not the same as NONE or NOTHING.
 
#17 ·
The F30 is a great handling car. When I first received, I was a little disappointed by the slight "numbness" in the steering. However, after a month of driving I absolutely love how it drives. Going through a fast turn or a tight turn - the car is always where you want it to be. The lack of feel is an illusion, and makes the car more comfortable and luxurious to drive.
 
#19 ·
Go drive an a4 sport. Then go straight to BMW and drive an F30 sport. No comparison. I was actually set on an A4 based on paper/reviews. I left there disappointed and wanting to keep what I had, which I knew keeping wasn't an option. I then drove the F30 and couldn't wait to sell my ZHP. BMW tried to sell me the "drive it like it's stolen" experience. Audi tried to sell me gadgets that I'll never use.

Though I'll miss my e46 ZHP, the bone stock F30 annihilates the A4 and matched if not exceeded my e46, which has an aftermarket tire, brake, and suspension setup. My sales guy was also a DE instructor I had had in the past, so trust me we had a spirited test drive. Not just around the corner type of stuff. All I can say is go drive one. They may match other manufacturers on paper, but there's nothing llke a BMW on the market. Though, I admit I didn't drive a ATS.

If you're in the market for a new car. Go drive them and let your butt make the decision. Not some Car & Driver review, etc. Buy whichever you like the best and join their forums and enjoy your ride. That's what being an enthusiast is about....not brand loyalty or hearsay.

Edit: s/new/knew/
 
#23 ·
I still want a B5 s4 Avant 6mt in RS4 spec with bigger turbos. I love the idea of a low 12/high 11 second AWD wagon.
 
#24 ·
Tires. I dove a sportline on the track with high performance tires. The f30 was a beast but the thing you must remember is that these numbers were with a professional or highly skilled drivers. The average driver would show different numbers. Mustangs are hard to push to the limit with there solid axle. You can't just read numbers you must go out and find out for yourself.
 
#25 ·
Handling is one of those words that has many meanings.

Criticism by professionals that I've read is that the F30 doesn't have any steering feel. That's very different from saying the handling isn't good, or from saying the steering isn't accurate or fine. It can be very good and accurate despite no feel.

The 3 series with each generation outhandles the previous one, my E46 would I'm sure be faster around a tight road coarse than my E36, just due to more modern suspension design and tighter body stiffness. I've no doubt the F30 is the same, especially with the lighter 4 cylinder up front.

Top Gear just wrote that the M135i is a better sports car than the new Boxster, despite having zero steering feel. That says a lot, I think.
 
#26 ·
Handling is one of those words that has many meanings.

Criticism by professionals that I've read is that the F30 doesn't have any steering feel. That's very different from saying the handling isn't good, or from saying the steering isn't accurate or fine. It can be very good and accurate despite no feel.
Exactly. Handling and steering feel are different things, though good steering feel contributes to handling, or at least one's perception of it. I think the F30 has outstanding handling and balance, but the steering, while accurate and precise, is incredibly numb. To me, that's the only blemish on an otherwise outstanding car.
 
#29 ·
real world handling

New Year's eve. On our way home at 1:30 or so on a Virginia back country called "Old Gun Road" (a classic name or what?). We come around a sharp curve and there's deer not standing on the road but down on its honches. Threw the wheel sharp right and just missed it. In any other car it would have been a real ugly way to start the New Year. Whatever you call it, I'm sure glad I had it! My wife is still scceaming.....
 
#30 ·
New Year's eve. On our way home at 1:30 or so on a Virginia back country called "Old Gun Road" (a classic name or what?). We come around a sharp curve and there's deer not standing on the road but down on its honches. Threw the wheel sharp right and just missed it. In any other car it would have been a real ugly way to start the New Year. Whatever you call it, I'm sure glad I had it! My wife is still scceaming.....
I think perhaps "in any other car" may be somewhat of an exaggeration but responsive steering can certainly be viewed as a safety feature.

CA
 
#33 ·
Even the new MKS handles very well with some super tires it had when tested by the reviewers. That's so true about the tires. I can live with the 3:13 time especially given it bested the S5 and is not too far off the S4, both of which have awd. I take it my m sport x drive with the staggered 19" tires would do better
 
#39 ·
So far I am picking up Michelin Pilot Super Sports which are pretty much top of the class for $280-300 a tire(235r/275r 19's). Word is the Star Spec Z2 might be hitting the streets soon. I have Z1's, the former class King on the Roadster.
 
#41 ·
I can think of no better place to spend money than tires on a car.

I remember a test years ago where they put $$$$ tires on a Kia and the braking, handling numbers were so huge they compared it to an off the shelf Porsche and it was shockingly close. Tires make or break any car.
 
#51 ·
Car and Driver comparison

Don't know if any of you subscribe to Car & Driver, but last month's issue (December) had an instrumented test of EPS vs. Traditional in a BMW-series. The 535xi still has hydraulic, while the 528xi (N20) has EPS, so they did some testing (about the only difference is that the 535xi has 143 lbs more weight on the front).

"After griping about EPS for years, the shocking revelation is that C/D's editorial staff preferred BMW's electric system over its hydraulic assistance. Total votes in 7 of 10 (subjective) categories favored EPS by 2 to 8 points each. Hydraulic shined in only the 3 feedback categories where it won the on-center by 4 points and tied with EPS in our middle-of-maneuver and at-cornering-extremes performance ratings."

Later, they note that Hydraulic effort rises quicker when going off-center. Also, the article notes that almost 60% cars come with EPS now, up from 25% in 2005.

Unfortunately, C/D seems to have changed their website:thumbdwn: and you can no longer search old issues, or link to articles.:mad: (Perhaps it's just a bit soon; the January issue just came out.)
 
#53 ·
Don't know if any of you subscribe to Car & Driver, but last month's issue (December) had an instrumented test of EPS vs. Traditional in a BMW-series. The 535xi still has hydraulic, while the 528xi (N20) has EPS, so they did some testing (about the only difference is that the 535xi has 143 lbs more weight on the front).

"After griping about EPS for years, the shocking revelation is that C/D's editorial staff preferred BMW's electric system over its hydraulic assistance. Total votes in 7 of 10 (subjective) categories favored EPS by 2 to 8 points each. Hydraulic shined in only the 3 feedback categories where it won the on-center by 4 points and tied with EPS in our middle-of-maneuver and at-cornering-extremes performance ratings."

Later, they note that Hydraulic effort rises quicker when going off-center. Also, the article notes that almost 60% cars come with EPS now, up from 25% in 2005.

Unfortunately, C/D seems to have changed their website:thumbdwn: and you can no longer search old issues, or link to articles.:mad: (Perhaps it's just a bit soon; the January issue just came out.)
I read that, great article. Especially the last part where they mention the Lotus Elise/Exige as the last manufacturer to offer a car with no power steering (hydraulic or electronic) but still has the best steering response and road feel; nothing beats the OG setup. Btw, the only reason they still have a 5 series with the HPS is due to the fact the EPS unit was so big, it couldn't fit in the car so they opted for the HPS.
 
#54 ·
I am looking forward to the swap.

My 19's are 4lbs per corner lighter, the tires should be another 2-3lbs easy. Should be 15-20% lighter per corner overall.
 
#80 ·
It was not a BMW vs Audi comparison... The point was that my 99 A4 2.8 Sport was an excellent handling car... and my F30 Sportline spanks it.... just a bit of perspective, which was the point of this thread...

In other words, those who lament how poorly the F30 handles must therefore think my old A4 handled like a wounded cow... which is absurd. It handled wonderfully. I loved that car.
 
#70 ·
I agree.

Anyone else with experience may agree, when I did my first driving school in the Roadster I found the car was far more capable with much higher limits than ME.
 
#85 ·
I'm just perplexed why BMW doesn't just put Michelin PS2 RFTs and just call it a day in all the 3 series. It's what they used to do in the non-RFT days. None of this silly AS or summer tire combinations. PS2s or PSS are just as good in dry or wet weather with reasonable tread life; excluding snow of course. Hopefully an RFT for the PSS comes out soon as the treadware is much better than the PS2s.
 
#86 ·
Have you thought this out? PS2's on all 3 series? This is a high performance summer tire. It only makes sense to put such a tire on a Sport line or MSport model. On my car they would only be viable from mid-May to the end of September and the tread life is no where long enough for the vast majority of 3 series owners.
 
#89 ·
BJ is mostly right on this (yes, I know, don't feed the bears). BMW's 3 series has grown...like all of the competitors have grown...because the MAJORITY of their CUSTOMERS want it. Combine that with everybody's desire for more tech (heck, there are more "bluetooth / phone" posts on "enthusiast" forums than there are power adder posts these days), smoother rides, government CAFE and EPA requirements and well...you get the current 3 series. I do wish a ready replacement was in the line-up as a 4 door (i.e. I like the idea of a 1 series, but need more doors than it currently has and MAYBE we get 4 door in the U.S. - although I prefer the 5 door hatch in that style).

Now as a point of reference I drove my son's 97 M3 a bit when he came home for Christmas break. Does it feel great and communicative? Yep! Does it also feel old, a bit too rattly, and have an interior that is loaded with hard plastic - um YEP! Heck, we spent 3 hours laying underneath it before Christmas swapping his aftermarket exhaust (track pipe included) BACK to the factory exhaust because (and I quote my 20 year old son) "it is fun, but it just gets old listening to it" - at least he still has the headers on it. I actually consider the current F30 to be the next logical step from an E39 (you know, the LEGENDARY E39 5 series widely proclaimed to be the best BMW ever) - it is sized similarly, etc - and that really isn't a bad thing.
 
#104 ·
BJ is mostly right on this (yes, I know, don't feed the bears). BMW's 3 series has grown...like all of the competitors have grown...because the MAJORITY of their CUSTOMERS want it. Combine that with everybody's desire for more tech (heck, there are more "bluetooth / phone" posts on "enthusiast" forums than there are power adder posts these days), smoother rides, government CAFE and EPA requirements and well...you get the current 3 series.
What is interesting to me is that this has more or less always been the case, yet those tiny, sub-compact, and harsh riding cars have sold very well. That's because the badge is almighty.

I have to note though that the old BMWs (E36 and E39) I have driven or sat in as a passenger always felt firm but very supple and smooth. I have never been inside an E90 while moving, so I don't know what people are describing as harsh. Is the the sport suspension, the older RFTs, or a combination? I assume the latter.
 
#96 · (Edited)
Regarding the Lightning Lap article I noticed they said one would be hard pressed to find a car at any price that delivered more driving enjoyment in that test than the 335i. That pretty much reiterates the OP's original point with this thread.
 
#99 ·
Just to put things in perspective:

Some people here seem to be carrying on as if the 3 Series has suddenly transformed from being a race car for the street into some oversize luxo-barge. The 2002 may have been a quirky cult car that helped popularize (no it was not the original) the concept of a sport sedan in the US but for quite some time the 3 Series has been the quintessential Yuppie Mobile and although they appealed to enthusiasts the image conscious were always an important part of the market. Building a car that is uncomfortable as basic transportation would not be a good move for BMW and neither would building a car that lost the "Ultimate Driving Machine" characteristics that built the brand. BMW needs to build cars that offer the best of both worlds and if they do not they will just become another generic brand in a sea of generic brands.

The F30 can be optioned for more luxury or more performance (or neither or some of each) but that concept is hardly new and is more an American than a German innovation. American cars traditionally have had very long option lists and cars like 1967 Camaros could be configured as a "Secretary Special" with an anemic 6 cylinder engine and a 2 speed powerglide AT or as a Z28 which in its early iterations was very close to being a street legal race car.

It was inevitable that the 3 Series would evolve with more creature comforts and technology. Today even main stream "family sedans" come equipped with climate control, blue tooth, navigation systems, etc.

Diving dynamics has always been a feature that separated BMW from the competition. IMO there is no reason why driving dynamics, road feel, handling, etc. need to deteriorate in order to make the car more mainstream. With today's suspension technologies it is possible to have comfort and handling on the same car and there is really no reason not to have both.

As I posted earlier harshness and road feel are two different things. A high performance car (and a high performance driver) will be smooth. Driving dynamics are very important to me but I am not interested in a car that shakes the fillings out of my teeth and that breaks when it hits an imperfection in the road surface.

We can have the best of both worlds and should not settle for less.


CA
 
#120 · (Edited)
In college I took a senior level history course called The Automobile in American History. Loved that course. Reviving the LaSalle name wouldn't have worked for Cadillac/GM. It may have had a positive effect on post-war Cadillac products, but the name became equated with a brand failure. That would be bad for those who made the connection and on the flipside would be those for whom the name had no meaning due to no brand recognition. Reminds me of Ford's attempt to revive the name 500. It had meaning for them, but no more public brand recognition. They, of course, quickly renamed it the Taurus.

The problem with this latest attempt from Lexus is that they've created more of a "boy racer", "Japanese ricer" look to those cars.

I mentioned this in another post - BMW is suffering some now from their own innovation and success. Driving performance, handling, and dynamics technology is reaching its limit and now economies of scale are allowing everyone and their grandmother to have what used to be high-end technology. And then electronic/computer technology is so prolific everyone can have it and it's hard to keep up with all the advancements.

Then there's all the changing propulsion system possibilities.

It's a brave, new automotive world automakers are facing.
 
#121 · (Edited)
In college I took a senior level history course called The Automobile in American History. Loved that course. Reviving the LaSalle name wouldn't have worked for Cadillac/GM. It may have had a positive effect on post-war Cadillac products, but the name became equated with a brand failure. That would be bad for those who made the connection and on the flipside would be those for whom the name had no meaning due to no brand recognition. Reminds me of Ford's attempt to revive the name 500. It had meaning for them, but no more public brand recognition. They, of course, quickly renamed it the Taurus.

The problem with this latest attempt from Lexus is that they've created more of a "boy racer", "Japanese ricer" look to those cars.

I mentioned this in another post - BMW is suffering some now from their own innovation and success. Driving performance, handling, and dynamics technology is reaching its limit and now economies of scale are allowing everyone and their grandmother to have what used to ne high-end technology. And then electronic/computer technology is so prolific everyone can have it and it's hard to keep up with all the advancements.

The there's all the changing propulsion system possibilities.

It's a brave, new automotive world automakers are facing.
It probably would not have been a good idea for Cadillac to revive the LaSalle name and you are correct it has virtually zero brand recognition in today's market since the brand was discontinued in 1940. One of the reasons that GM dropped it was because the cars had grown in size and were competing with the Cadillac brand.

CA
 
#124 · (Edited)
" It just seems the target market for this latest generation is more towards the main stream of drivers which drives the most volume of revenue and sales. Can't blame BMW, it's what makes Toyota and Honda lots of money. So they have achieved to get into the mainstream market while appeasing their enthusiast followers; even if it requires more customization than previously needed from their older generation 3 series."[/QUOTE]

Excellent point! Beloved Roundel is about sales volume and profit. Read more here: http://www.bmwgroup.com/bmwgroup_prod/e/0_0_www_bmwgroup_com/investor_relations/corporate_news/news/news_aktuell_2012.html

But I don't like being exploited for being an enthusiast and having to pony up more money for what used to be standard. However, I will pay to play because BMWs are awesome!!
 
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