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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #1  
Old 02-25-2009, 12:34 PM
dch8008 dch8008 is offline
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Do you really save $$ on gas with diesel?

Here in CA diesel costs 20 cents more per gallon then premium unleaded. If you compare the annual fuel costs of the standard 3.0 vs. 35d are they about even since the diesel has better mpg? Or does the price difference give the 3.0 the edge?
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  #2  
Old 02-25-2009, 02:12 PM
ncsucarjock88 ncsucarjock88 is offline
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Simple math.

15,000 miles a year.

20mpg for the 3.0 avg; 750 gallons x 2.00 = $1500

24mpg for the 3.0D - avg; 625 gallons x 2.20 = $1375

But...the Diesel also gets to 60 in 7.2 seconds, versus the gassers 8 seconds...

and has more torque, and I suspect though i've not driven one, better performance around town...

Now...let's assume you drive like me:

30k miles a year, with a lead foot. I average 14mpg out of the 4.4i I have, in town, and 19 on the highway. So, overall a 17.5 mpg. Past experience has proven that even with a smaller engine, I"ll get very similar fuel economy, because i'm giving it the boot all the time...whereas, the V8 has enough power that I'm not *always* dogging it, just most of the time.

I'd expect real world mileage of the diesel for me to be about 22mpg or so. Highway would be more, in town a little less, but 22mpg is probably a good figure.

17.5mpg (V8) at 30,000 miles/year = 1714 gallons x 2.00 = 3428 At $5/gallon its 8570 for the gasser

22mpg (diesel) at 30,000 miles/year = 1364 gallons x 2.20 = 3000. at $5.20/gallon is 7093 for the diesel

But...the new diesels qualify for a tax rebate of $1800.

So...yes...the diesel will probably save you money, especially over the long haul and if you do a lot of driving. For me, the extra mid-range torque would negate the need for a thirstier V8, with little loss of overall performance. The tax credit is nice. And when fuel goes back up, the difference will increase dramatically.

Why don't I have one? Can you see putting 30k on a new car in the first year? The depreciation would kill me. I'm looking forward to a couple years from now, when the diesels are available as CPO vehicle, and I'm ready to upgrade from my '04 4.4i.
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  #3  
Old 12-05-2009, 06:53 AM
CDahl CDahl is offline
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My calculation is a bit different. I (and probably most who buy an X5) pay the Alternate Minimum Tax (AMT) so I don't qualify for tax rebate (bye bye $1800). I negotiated both X5 3.0 and 35d and the bottom line cost difference after taxes between a X5 3.0 and 35d was over $2200 (considering current rebates of $2500 back on 3.0 and $4500 on 35d). I drive about 15,000 miles per year and figured $600/year fuel savings based on my driving so basically a four (4) year payback . That assumes diesel and premium gas stay at parity (though within the past year or so I have seen diesel going for as much as $1/gallon above premium which would obviously eliminate any mpg benefit )

I plan on keeping this vehicle but after 4 years BMW maintenance is up so I have to pay for Adblue . I did a quick search and it seems like the stuff goes for about $15/half gallon. BMW 35d requires 6 gallons of Adblue ,so theres another $180 every 11,000 miles. Thats assuming I can do myself and don't need special BMW Adblue stuff ,otherwise you can probably double that cost. (oh if you don't refill at 11,000 the X5 35d will not start. Thats right-NO GO!! ) . The Adblue system is a whole other fluid system unique to the 35d. Thats more things to go wrong. I understand 6 gallon Adblue tank takes some room from luggage space in the 35d . Also the Adblue fluid freezes below 15 degrees so need to run a heater when it gets cold. There is also increase maintenance on injectors and other parts with diesel. Considering above seems to offset most of any fuel savings. So while x35d mpg numbers look great on paper its just because your paying for it elsewhere (higher up front cost, higher long term maintenance costs, potentially higher diesel fuel prices , etc.)

Then there's some additional factors I considered: You can't always find a low sulfur diesel station in some areas (e.g. we recently looked in three stations in remote Pennsylvania with no luck). The x5 35d has been reported to be noisier than x5 3.0 and i've also heard of occasional hesitations with the diesel.

I know X5 35d beats in torque and performance (something like 7.2 vs 8 seconds ) . However in my opinion ,given the the above considerations, makes the economics and ultimately the decision between 35d and 3.0 closer than suggested by some in this forum. If I'm incorrect or mis-stating anything please let me know. thanks


Quote:
Originally Posted by ncsucarjock88 View Post
Simple math.

15,000 miles a year.

20mpg for the 3.0 avg; 750 gallons x 2.00 = $1500

24mpg for the 3.0D - avg; 625 gallons x 2.20 = $1375

But...the Diesel also gets to 60 in 7.2 seconds, versus the gassers 8 seconds...

and has more torque, and I suspect though i've not driven one, better performance around town...

Now...let's assume you drive like me:

30k miles a year, with a lead foot. I average 14mpg out of the 4.4i I have, in town, and 19 on the highway. So, overall a 17.5 mpg. Past experience has proven that even with a smaller engine, I"ll get very similar fuel economy, because i'm giving it the boot all the time...whereas, the V8 has enough power that I'm not *always* dogging it, just most of the time.

I'd expect real world mileage of the diesel for me to be about 22mpg or so. Highway would be more, in town a little less, but 22mpg is probably a good figure.

17.5mpg (V8) at 30,000 miles/year = 1714 gallons x 2.00 = 3428 At $5/gallon its 8570 for the gasser

22mpg (diesel) at 30,000 miles/year = 1364 gallons x 2.20 = 3000. at $5.20/gallon is 7093 for the diesel

But...the new diesels qualify for a tax rebate of $1800.

So...yes...the diesel will probably save you money, especially over the long haul and if you do a lot of driving. For me, the extra mid-range torque would negate the need for a thirstier V8, with little loss of overall performance. The tax credit is nice. And when fuel goes back up, the difference will increase dramatically.

Why don't I have one? Can you see putting 30k on a new car in the first year? The depreciation would kill me. I'm looking forward to a couple years from now, when the diesels are available as CPO vehicle, and I'm ready to upgrade from my '04 4.4i.
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  #4  
Old 12-05-2009, 07:42 AM
Penguin Penguin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDahl View Post
I (and probably most who buy an X5) pay the Alternate Minimum Tax (AMT) so I don't qualify for tax rebate (bye bye $1800).

The AMT limitation has been suspended for the tax credit for the 2009 tax year, and I believe the 2010 tax year (not 100% sure about 2010), e.g., even if you pay AMT, you can take the alternative fuel tax credit.


But I bought the Diesel for performance vs. the 3.0... the fact that the Diesel is now less expensive than the 3.0 and gets better MPG are just a bonus to me.

As for AdBlue cost, it is expected to cost $3-4 a gallon in a year or two after the over-the-road diesels start using it.

Last edited by Penguin; 12-05-2009 at 07:45 AM.
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  #5  
Old 12-05-2009, 08:10 AM
Funf Dreisig Funf Dreisig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDahl View Post
My calculation is a bit different. ..... That assumes diesel and premium gas stay at parity (though within the past year or so I have seen diesel going for as much as $1/gallon above premium which would obviously eliminate any mpg benefit ) ....
There is no fundamental economic (refining/transporting/marketing) reason for diesel to cost more than premium over the long haul. From what I've read, the higher prices for diesel last year were due to the oil companies passing on the costs of converting over to ULSD. Of course, rational pricing is always a hope and not always a reality

ULSD diesel is as available as premium gasoline in our rural area. It is a little more scarce in the nearby metro area. But we have always been in the habit of using only a few stations (out of hundreds) anyway. So finding a couple of well maintained diesel stations in the nearby metro area, that we can use to fill up when we are there, was not a big deal to us.

Quote:
I plan on keeping this vehicle but after 4 years BMW maintenance is up so I have to pay for Adblue . I did a quick search and it seems like the stuff goes for about $15/half gallon. BMW 35d requires 6 gallons of Adblue ,so theres another $180 every 11,000 miles. Thats assuming I can do myself and don't need special BMW Adblue stuff ,otherwise you can probably double that cost. (oh if you don't refill at 11,000 the X5 35d will not start. Thats right-NO GO!! ) . The Adblue system is a whole other fluid system unique to the 35d. Thats more things to go wrong. I understand 6 gallon Adblue tank takes some room from luggage space in the 35d . Also the Adblue fluid freezes below 15 degrees so need to run a heater when it gets cold. There is also increase maintenance on injectors and other parts with diesel. Considering above seems to offset most of any fuel savings. .....
These figures are probably high. First AdBlue is just a fancy German brand name for generic Diesel Emissions Fluid that will be used in lots of trucks here in the US. The price you got was probably for the small, very complicated (bowling pin shaped) bottle that BMW sells and approves for owners to top up the smaller DEF tank. BMW (and others) sell larger, simple containers at much lower/gal pricing. The process of renewing the DEF will probably become standard procedure at independent shops by the time anyone's 35d initial warranty runs out.

The 35d uses 2 DEF tanks. Neither of these tanks take away any luggage/storage space. The larger one is not heated and the DEF can freeze in that tank. But the smaller one is heated and should last about 1,000mi. So even in very cold weather, you only need to get your X5 to "warmer climes" every 1,000 mi. or have a spare bottle of warm DEF to top up the heated tank until it gets warmer in your area

In the end, everyone has to make up their own mind based on their own ideas/circumstances. As I posted earlier, if BMW had not offered a diesel X5, we would be driving a Mercedes ML BlueTec today.

Funf Dreisig

Last edited by Funf Dreisig; 12-05-2009 at 08:21 AM.
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  #6  
Old 02-25-2009, 05:16 PM
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AzNMpower32 AzNMpower32 is offline
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You can look at the mathematics of it as demonstrated above.

There are simple advantages of diesel. You get substantially longer range between fillups. The midrange torque is unparalleled by any petrol from BMW, including the M5. It has 580Nm of torque versus the V10's 520Nm. This makes the vehicle extremely flexible in any situation. You are being "green" for the environment because it emits less CO² than any other X5 model (okay, the xDrive30d in the EU emits 3 g/km less, big deal). In Virginia, diesel is usually a modest $0,08/litre more expensive, but I have seen places where it is almost on par with premium petrol.

Honestly, I don't understand why anyone gets the 3.0si model, maybe someone can explain this to me. Just my €0,02.

Last edited by AzNMpower32; 02-25-2009 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Statistic
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  #7  
Old 02-25-2009, 05:53 PM
Craig B Craig B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzNMpower32 View Post
You can look at the mathematics of it as demonstrated above.

There are simple advantages of diesel. You get substantially longer range between fillups. The midrange torque is unparalleled by any petrol from BMW, including the M5. It has 580Nm of torque versus the V10's 520Nm. This makes the vehicle extremely flexible in any situation. You are being "green" for the environment because it emits less CO² than any other X5 model (okay, the xDrive30d in the EU emits 3 g/km less, big deal).

Honestly, I don't understand why anyone gets the 3.0si model, maybe someone can explain this to me. Just my €0,02.

I waited two years for the diesel. The gas 3.0 didn't have enough power and the 4.8 uses too much fuel.

Craig
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  #8  
Old 02-27-2009, 05:07 AM
mynsx mynsx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzNMpower32 View Post
You can look at the mathematics of it as demonstrated above.

There are simple advantages of diesel. You get substantially longer range between fillups. The midrange torque is unparalleled by any petrol from BMW, including the M5. It has 580Nm of torque versus the V10's 520Nm. This makes the vehicle extremely flexible in any situation. You are being "green" for the environment because it emits less CO² than any other X5 model (okay, the xDrive30d in the EU emits 3 g/km less, big deal). In Virginia, diesel is usually a modest $0,08/litre more expensive, but I have seen places where it is almost on par with premium petrol.

Honestly, I don't understand why anyone gets the 3.0si model, maybe someone can explain this to me. Just my €0,02.
question....why are you using EUR and litre/KM to explain cost in the US? Are you really from Virginia?

Diesel prices in the US going forward will only get higher against regular gasoline as demonstrated this past summer. If and when the economy picks up, the spread is going to get bigger. Not sure if anyone should be looking at MPG's to decide whether or not you should be getting a diesel engine. If anyone is worried about the operating cost...get a hyundai.
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  #9  
Old 02-27-2009, 09:09 AM
AndreyATC AndreyATC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mynsx View Post
If and when the economy picks up, the spread is going to get bigger.
What is your conclusion based of?
Are you saying when prices at the pump go up the difference between premium and diesel will increase?
1st, i doubt it'll be tha case
2nd, when prices are higher for both gas and diesel, it will still be around the same ratio or less (percent wise)
So if the difference stays, lets say $0.40, then your savings for driving diesel are much more

P.S. My guess is that we will be paying for diesel same or less than premium in the future, not more
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  #10  
Old 02-27-2009, 10:13 AM
mynsx mynsx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
What is your conclusion based of?
Are you saying when prices at the pump go up the difference between premium and diesel will increase?
1st, i doubt it'll be tha case
2nd, when prices are higher for both gas and diesel, it will still be around the same ratio or less (percent wise)
So if the difference stays, lets say $0.40, then your savings for driving diesel are much more

P.S. My guess is that we will be paying for diesel same or less than premium in the future, not more
My conclusion is based on what happened last year. Prices between the two will increase as demonstrated this past summer. The reason why all prices are down is due to this ****ty global economy. China was one of the biggest consumers of diesel fuel. They've cut back dramatically. If and when the global economy picks up, the spread between the two will increase again.

and the spread as price increases will not be $0.40 per gallon. If the percentage stays the same, the actual $ amount increases negating any savings.

But again, one shouldn't be considering diesel or non diesel engine based on how much savings they can get from their X5's. If so, they should be getting a Hyundai.
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  #11  
Old 12-10-2009, 02:44 AM
Norm37 Norm37 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzNMpower32 View Post
Honestly, I don't understand why anyone gets the 3.0si model, maybe someone can explain this to me. Just my €0,02.
Agree I would get an X3 if I wanted the 3.0-liter engine.
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  #12  
Old 02-25-2009, 06:04 PM
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dcharnet dcharnet is offline
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When gas was $4 plus last summer, diesel was about $0.75 per gallon more expensive in the midwest. That relationship is wildly unpredictable. Also, there is the extra up-front cost of the diesel motor after the tax credit--what, $3,000 net? If you ignore the discounted value carry-forward (when resold, the diesel will return some if not all of the extra cost, but you are deprived of that value in the interim), it could take years/ many thousands of miles to break even. The BMW 6 is a great motor generally and moves the X5 well, at least in manual. I think there is still a market for the 6. When my 08 3.0 is ready to be traded or sold, I will look at the diesel, but it is not clear that I would get one. I would never get an 8. Further, I am not a soccer mom.
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  #13  
Old 02-25-2009, 10:51 PM
spyderdoc spyderdoc is offline
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Today at my local San Jose Gas station, I was elated to see that diesel was $0.05 cheaper than premium...Made my day, so I topped off my tank.
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  #14  
Old 02-26-2009, 01:45 PM
hazbeen hazbeen is offline
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SoCal diesel prices waaaay down

I saw today in LaQuinta at a Chevron on Hwy111 that diesel was $2.13 a gallon (may have been $2.18...I was driving by) which was lower than regular unleaded, unleaded plus AND premium. I think Premium was $2.39, plus was $2.29 and regular $2.19.

At least this week, everyone who runs the approximate breakeven point for making a diesel pay off will have a different outcome.

Peace
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  #15  
Old 02-27-2009, 12:12 PM
AndreyATC AndreyATC is offline
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Here is the little curve ball on the diesel speculation
We might start getting more demand for diesel in US and the refineries will be producing more of it, hense, the price likely to be lower than 93
Regarding China:
Well, they needed a lot of diesel to power their electric generators for Olympic games
They did cut back a lot and i'm sure they wont need it as much in the near future

For your "Hyundai" comment:
It will not just save you money, it'll give you better performing car that takes less trips to gas stations while throwing less carbon into the air
Isnt it a nice feeling?

P.S. Oh, try towing with 3.0, definetely not as good as with 35D
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Last edited by AndreyATC; 02-27-2009 at 12:15 PM.
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  #16  
Old 02-27-2009, 12:21 PM
philippek philippek is offline
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The fuel and cost savings from owning a diesel will be small. When you look at it as a percentage of acquisition cost, almost trivial. I've heard some stories that this will change as our involvement in 3 wars diminishes--not sure how much I believe that.

Diesel vehicles are about much more than cost savings. Perhaps the biggest reason we have them in North America at all is because consumers wanted a choice. Diesels will not be a profitable segment in the near term, or possibly even in the medium term.

Diesels do provide a good interim step as the world weans itself away from fossil fuels. And in a world where governments are beginning to legislate how efficient passenger vehicles have to be, diesels serve a compelling purpose for manufacturers looking to increase their corporate fuel economy averages.
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Old 02-28-2009, 10:07 PM
jetstream23 jetstream23 is offline
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Originally Posted by philippek View Post
The fuel and cost savings from owning a diesel will be small. When you look at it as a percentage of acquisition cost, almost trivial. I've heard some stories that this will change as our involvement in 3 wars diminishes--not sure how much I believe that.
I still think that an $1,800 tax credit and $500-1000 per year (basically a car payment) in gas savings can be significant. When you combine that with getting a vehicle almost as powerful as the 4.8 for about $5K cheaper, I think the cost-benefit equation is a no-brainer. Am I missing something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by philippek View Post
Diesel vehicles are about much more than cost savings. Perhaps the biggest reason we have them in North America at all is because consumers wanted a choice. Diesels will not be a profitable segment in the near term, or possibly even in the medium term.
What does this mean? Not profitable for dealers? No offense, but why would consumers really care about that? And why do you think they'll be less profitable than other vehicles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by philippek View Post
Diesels do provide a good interim step as the world weans itself away from fossil fuels. And in a world where governments are beginning to legislate how efficient passenger vehicles have to be, diesels serve a compelling purpose for manufacturers looking to increase their corporate fuel economy averages.
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  #18  
Old 03-02-2009, 06:48 AM
Craig B Craig B is offline
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Originally Posted by jetstream23 View Post
I still think that an $1,800 tax credit and $500-1000 per year (basically a car payment) in gas savings can be significant. When you combine that with getting a vehicle almost as powerful as the 4.8 for about $5K cheaper, I think the cost-benefit equation is a no-brainer. Am I missing something?



What does this mean? Not profitable for dealers? No offense, but why would consumers really care about that? And why do you think they'll be less profitable than other vehicles?

The 4.8 comes with a lot of options standard that are add on's for the diesel and 3.0i.

The dealers have to send techs for training and purchase tools to work on the diesels. They also have to stock oil and other parts for the diesels as well...

Craig
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Old 03-02-2009, 05:27 AM
mynsx mynsx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
Here is the little curve ball on the diesel speculation
We might start getting more demand for diesel in US and the refineries will be producing more of it, hense, the price likely to be lower than 93
Regarding China:
Well, they needed a lot of diesel to power their electric generators for Olympic games
They did cut back a lot and i'm sure they wont need it as much in the near future

For your "Hyundai" comment:
It will not just save you money, it'll give you better performing car that takes less trips to gas stations while throwing less carbon into the air
Isnt it a nice feeling?

P.S. Oh, try towing with 3.0, definetely not as good as with 35D

LOL. towing capacity and other reasons was what I was alluding to about getting a diesel engine and not mgp's and if somone was worried about the cost of gas...don't get a SUV.
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  #20  
Old 02-27-2009, 09:24 PM
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dcharnet dcharnet is offline
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The 3.0 in sport mode tows pretty well. I tow a race car in a covered trailer to races around the Midwest, two motorcycles in the same trailer out west, and also a sailboat on a dual axle trailer. The X5 does a better job at that than my old Jeep Grand Cherokee with the small 8. The sport mode moves the engine into a higher torque range across the gear spectrum. The standard automatic shift points are set for good CAFE numbers. But, yes, of course, the diesel will do that "better." The point is that the 3.0 is pretty good.
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Old 03-14-2009, 09:23 AM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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Diesel is cheaper than regular gas! For the first time in a great while I noticed on a Union Station price board they were selling diesel for less than gas. The cost was $2.31 for diesel and $2.39 for regular. If this trend continues it will make even more sense to get a diesel. Since I currently do not have a diesel but am looking at a Jetta Sportwagon (45 mpg) as a possible replacement for my X3, I have been watching the prices. Usually they have been around the cost of premium, but lately have been less and now are the lowest I have seen. This is in the Sunnyvale California area at the station on Fremont and Highway 9 (DeAnza Blvd.).
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Old 03-14-2009, 01:14 PM
Craig B Craig B is offline
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Diesel is cheaper than regular gas! For the first time in a great while I noticed on a Union Station price board they were selling diesel for less than gas. The cost was $2.31 for diesel and $2.39 for regular. If this trend continues it will make even more sense to get a diesel. Since I currently do not have a diesel but am looking at a Jetta Sportwagon (45 mpg) as a possible replacement for my X3, I have been watching the prices. Usually they have been around the cost of premium, but lately have been less and now are the lowest I have seen. This is in the Sunnyvale California area at the station on Fremont and Highway 9 (DeAnza Blvd.).

Diesel here is the same price as regular unleaded 1.899

Craig
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Old 03-15-2009, 05:02 PM
nekountze nekountze is offline
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Smile Lowest diesel price here in Omaha is now $1.85

Getting 20.5 mpg in town, 26 mpg highway driving my X5d. I previously owned a 2001 X5 3.0i and the power was much less - terrible acceleration compared to the diesel. There is no comparison of the 6 gas vs 6 diesel IMHO. I drove the X5 V8 at the BMW Performance center in SC and I must say the diesel is every bit if not more powerful.

I would assume towing would be a hassle and with constant downshifts on hills with the 3.0i, but effortless with the 3.0d.
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Old 08-01-2009, 08:45 PM
lp2009 lp2009 is offline
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Mein Auto: 2008 535xi
Do you get the 1800 tax break if you lease the diesel? (does the dealer)
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Old 08-01-2009, 09:28 PM
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cablue cablue is offline
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Location: Sierra foothills, California
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 206
Mein Auto: '10 X5 diesel
Diesel in my area, Sierra foothills, near Sacramento is .20/gal. less than premium. Diesel is the only way I'd get an X5. I'm looking at maybe ordering one within a week or so. Heard conflicting info on whether I can get the $4500 discount if getting car after 8/31 by ordering. Any input? Thanks!
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