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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 01-06-2012, 12:13 AM
bjay27 bjay27 is offline
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Brake Pressure Sensor (DSC/ABS/BRAKE Trifecta)

Ive spent about 12hours pouring throught the mounds of the ABS/DSC/Brake trifetca issues for a week and havent found any good DIY on Brake Pressure Sensor testing.

If anyone can point me to a DIY thread for Brake Pressure sensor testing, please do so, however I coultnt find any specifics from bluebee or 540iman that specify a process.

I have an 02 E39 with the ABS/DSC/Brake light issue for about 6 months however speedo and cruise work fine. I have not heard of anyone having this specific issue, but all 3 lights usually pop on for me 3/4 the time when Im braking at a stoplight, (light sometimes turns off/on while brake pedal down) which leads me to think its the brake pressure sensor (vs ABS module or speed sensors.) The other 1/4 is during normal driving.

I did the "BlueBee wheel sensor diode test" which did show failure in the RR, however my LR diode test was only working when I reversed the leads. Im still questioning this test vs the gold standard which would be to actively measure the sqaure voltage output of each, however I havent the time or equipment to do this. Despite my DMM diode function working, I cant get any Ohm readings. All sensors have been pulled and cleaned, still with trifecta issue.

BRAKE PRESSURE SENSOR TESTS

There are 3 wires in the rear of the sensor. After much testing I came to this conclusion.
-blue/black (ground)
-purple/black (+5V)
-white/blue -variable voltage per psi

SENSOR TEST
To test the sensor output with DMM, ground the (-) probe, and tap the (+) probe into the blue/white wire, turn key on and meausre voltage change with brake pressure.

Despite 0 -> full brake force, I could only get a 0.2V increase from .69V to about .89V. The other wires were a constant. I have read the voltage should approach over 4V at maximum pressure.
Does anyone have specs on the resistance through this sensor?
Is there a pin from the ABS pinout that corresponds to this wire for testing?

CONCLUSION
It appears my brake sensor is the likely culprit here, however I am still not convinced I dont have a bad wheel sensor or ABS module, although all speedo and cruise controls work fine.
I have heard of erroneous diode testing even thought the wheel sensors are normal....
And I am not sure why when I do the diode tests at the actual rear sensors, they are all faulty with OL/OL. I am also perplexed why my LR diode polarity is opposite the other 3 (verified this 5 times), as this could possibly mean a faulty ABS module?
I'll probably finally load up GTI and INPA for more data, as Ive been meaning to do this, As for now its nice to do peel-outs with the DSC failing

Any thoughts appreciated!
Sorry to post yet another 1000+ thread on the trifecta of death.

-James
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  #2  
Old 01-06-2012, 12:57 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjay27 View Post
If anyone can point me to a DIY thread for Brake Pressure sensor testing, please do so, however I coultnt find any specifics from bluebee or 540iman that specify a process.
I'm surprised since the canonical ABS BRAKE DSC trifecta thread has lots of information on testing the brake pressure sensor (but I would agree it's scattered about within the 500 posts of that thread).

The test we came up with (initially from 540iman and Max_VQ) was based, I'm sure, partly at least on this PDF:
- DSC_COMPONENTS.PDF

I'll look separately for that brake pressure sensor test and include the information for you in a later post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjay27 View Post
I have heard of erroneous diode testing even thought the wheel sensors are normal....
As I remember ... any wheel speed sensor that tested bad (when the other three were tested as good), 'was' bad (but I'd have to check the 500 posts to be doubly sure of that off-hand assumption).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjay27 View Post
I'll probably finally load up GTI and INPA for more data, as Ive been meaning to do this
Start here:
- How to diagnose the BMW amber ABS BRAKE DSC/ASC trifecta or bifecta (1) & what are all known options when your ABS control module is bad (1) & Quick99Si's explanation of why the 10-minute wheel speed sensor diode-action quick test doesn't always work, especially on brand new non-OEM wheel speed sensors (1) (2) & explanations by 540iman as to why the diagnostic tools very often (extremely often, like almost all the time) fail to properly diagnose the trifecta or bifecta (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) & where to get the BMW diagnostic tools for free once you're aware of these limitations (1)

Last edited by bluebee; 01-07-2012 at 11:18 AM.
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  #3  
Old 01-06-2012, 01:19 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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As promised, below I bring over what we long ago had ascertained about how to test the brake pressure sensor (BPS) which starts around post #62 in the canonical ABS BRAKE DSC trifecta thread and continues to about post #473 of that same thread.

Post #62:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
This errant brake pressure sensor reading might be the reason some people replace sensors and the ABS module yet still have the three warning lights lit.

It seems there is a "pressure sensor" P/N 34511165467 $111.68 screwed into the back of the hydro unit in the engine compartment of the 2002 E39.

I wonder what an "offset" error indicates?

Any advice how to test this ABS hydraulic unit "pressure sensor"?
Post #64:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Your documents are FANTASTIC to help me understand the system!
- BMW_ABS_BRAKE_DSC_TRIFECTA_COMPONENTS.PDF

One way, if we can figure it out how to do it, to test this front-brake pressure sensor would be to do a "flying lead" while the car is running to see if a 0 to 5 volt signal is generated while using the brakes.

But, it would be easier to do a static test of this front-brake pressure sensor with the car ignition off from the ABS module connector.

Do you have any ideas how to test the "offset" of the front-brake "pressure sensor" that is screwed into the rear of the ABS hydraulic module.

Post #65:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_VQ View Post
Here is my thought on testing the sensor...
Since the output has a range of 0-5volts and it measures pressures from 0-250bar we can figure out the scale of the output:

250 bar = 3,626 psi
3,626 / 5 = 725.2 psi/volt or 1.3 mV per psi.

With the ignition on, measure the voltage on the pressure sensor while someone is pressing hard on the brake pedal.
My guess is that should create about 3,000 psi of force and should show around 4.13 volts. At rest it should show very close to 0 volts.
Post #66:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
The hardest part, I think, will be to access the signal while the components are attached to the car.

Do you or 540iman know the pin numbers on the ABS connector for the three pins are (power, ground, signal output)?

BTW, your math seems perfect. Witness this Corvette Bosch 5.3 description whose math jives with your estimates quite nicely!

Post #67
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Looking at the front brake pressure sensor at the rear of the hydro unit, I see the brake pressure sensor harness has three wires that we can tap into to test live voltage.


I did notice some "stuff" on the edge of the clip, so I cleaned that off and reconnected the clip.

... Error 81 in the posted Bosch 5.7 codes appears to be:
81 Pressure Sensor
Post #68:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_VQ View Post
If you did test for voltage at the pressure sensor with the ignition disconnected, then it makes sense that the module would throw a "pressure sensor" code, as it did not see the pressure sensor.

Plug the sensor back in, and reset the ABS module. I don't think the "81" will come back.

To test the output voltage, you could make up something like this: http://www.picoauto.com/breakout-lead.html
Post #69:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
I agree that the diagnostic information from the OBDII port seems to change so I ran it a least a half dozen times, resetting each time.

For example, from the OBDII port, after reconnecting the brake pressure sensor connection, I did reset the original error code which, weirdly, initially came back as:
81 Einlassventil : vorne links (inlet valve, front left)
105 Brems Licht Schalter (brake light switch)

But then, after resetting the OBDII error, the ABS test consistently reported:
81 inlet valve, front left
(even after multiple error resets)

I'm guessing, from the pic below, is it that you shove the leads into the BACK of the brake pressure sensor while the sensor is connected to the hydro unit?

If so, this would be the suggested procedure to test a brake pressure sensor (but now my error is "inlet valve"???).

1. Turn off ignition
2. Remove the three-wire brake pressure sensor electrical connector (do not remove the sensor, just remove the connector!)
3. Check the brake pressure sensor (male prongs) for continuity with a DMM we don't know what values to expect???? but we may as well write them here
4. Turn ignition on (car not running)
5. Test brake pressure connector (female side) for 12v supply voltage
6. Turn ignition off
7. Reconnect brake pressure sensor
... here's where the test jig comes in ...
8. Stick three 1.5mm test probes into the BACK of the connected brake pressure connector in situ
9. Attach your DMM voltmeter to the power & signal wires (we need to determine which color is power, ground, and signal)
10. Turn ignition on (car idling)
11. Ask an assistant to press on the brake pedal as you measure the voltage change
12. You should see 0 volts to 5 volts corresponding to 0 to 250 bar pressure (0 to 3,626 psi) changes in the front brake lines as your assistant presses on the brake pedal from soft to firm.

How does this look for a test sequence for the brake pressure sensor?

The questions for confirmation are:

A) Is the suggestion to stick a probe into the BACK of the brake pressure sensor to measure voltage sweep in situ?

B) Does anyone have an idea what part the diagnostic message "inlet valve, left" is referring to?

Post #70:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_VQ View Post
Not quite... The cable is like a "Y" adapter:
(1) one wire (for example the top left of the Y) goes to the pressure sensor
(2) The same coloured wire as (1) goes to the connector that attaches to the sensor. (this is like the top right of the Y)
(3) the "bottom of the Y" goes to your meter. (same colour as 1&2)

This allows you to insert your meter/scope in between the sensor and plug.

YOU MUST BER VERY CAREFUL NOT TO MIX UP THE WIRES. YOU COULD SHORT SOMETHING OUT AND KILL YOUR ABS controller or DME.

You don't have to buy this, as I think it is expensive, but you could make something for much less.
Post #71:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Is it a splice. Like in the picture below?

I agree, for DIY use, the professional jig is pretty expensive (for what it is) ... so I think I will scour the local auto parts stores (hardware stores?) for a tiny SQUARE wire to fit into the female end of the brake pressure sensor connector.

Does anyone know where I can get a secure tiny square female connector I can use for the male end?
Post #72:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 540iman View Post
Bluebee, why are you making this more difficult than it is? Start the car or turn the key to position#2. You don't need an adapter or any tool!

You can strip a tiny bit of insulation away from each of the three wires if it is easier than to just back-probhe into the connector.

Attach your ground VOM wire to any good ground- use the strut tower nuts.
Take the remaining positive meter lead and test each of the three wires one at a time.
One will read 0.0, one will read approx. 5.0 VDC, and one will read somewhere less like maybe .5 VDC or somewhere close.
Then, start the car and have someone press the brake pedal while you observe the wire voltage that was less than 5.0VDC.

This will be the follower voltage. That's all there is to it..
Post 75:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
It's confusing to me that two different decoding systems are needed, but, that's what it appears to be (Bosch & BMW).

It's also confusing to me that the first error (front brake pressure sensor) doesn't seem to be related to the second error (front left inlet valve, whatever that is).

As another datapoint, since I worked on it this weekend, the three yellow warning lights have taken MUCH LONGER to light up (ten or fifteen minutes sometimes); and they seem to flicker on and off while I'm driving. Before, the three orange warning lights went on within a couple of minutes and stayed on.

I'm beginning to think it might be the ABS module after all ... which might explain the inconsistencies as it "tries" to sense information from the twenty or so inputs that it has to work with.

I'll keep an eye on it and test further, given your advice.

Meanwhile I'm looking around in hardware & electronics stores for that tiny 1/2 mm square female connector that is the most important one to find. You'd think in the Silicon Valley that would be easy to find ... but not yet.

I'm going to try the following local connector companies:
- Molex over in Milpitas (920 Hillview Ct, 408-946-4700)
- JDR in North San Jose (1723 Rogers Ave. Unit O, 408-392-0100)
- JAE in Santa Clara (5201 Great America Pkwy # 320, 408-562-6003)
- Dicar in San Jose (1285 Alma Court, (408) 295-1106)

Does anyone know the "specifications" of that particular male-female square washington-monument shaped male pin?

It looks like the pressure sensor connector male posts are little washington monuments about a half millimeter by a half millimeter in square size and about a half inch long. It seems to be the same connector that is on the ABS connector. Does anyone have a spec for this that I can fax to the companies above before I stop in?

Post 77:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
... stuff deleted ...
b) Choose how to test the pressure sensor (either strip the 3 wires or build a jig; I prefer to build a jig if I can - it's more graceful)
...
d) Test the pressure sensor ... if bad ... replace (bearing in mind a $100 test jig for a $100 part isn't feasible)
...

Post 78:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_VQ View Post
You could try Digikey.com...

Maybe something like this:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...name=A30305-ND
Post 79:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 540iman View Post
If the pressure sensor is at all an issue, it should be tested right at the connector for the three wires going into it.

If two or three folks compare what their readings are without any brake pressure and with a firm depression of the pedal, I would think we could tell if there was enough of a difference to be an issue.

The measurement should be taken with the car running and the trailing wire (of the three) identified. The reading would be from this wire to ground and done by using a "piercing" probe on the VOM set for VDC.
Post 80:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
I already determined a 20 AWG wire would fit into those tiny square holes.

I might even buy 42 of them to make my own ABS connector breakout box so we can test the entire ABS system in situ!

I think I'll order 42 (for the ABS connector) plus 3 (for the brake pressure sensor) plus a few extras (just in case).


Post 85:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
MY SAGA:
- ABS/BRAKE/DSC lights are still lit (so I have not solved anything yet)
- All four wheel sensors tested good (thanks 540iman for the definitive tests!)
- Diagnostic tools first indicated a Bosch "114 Pressure Sensor Offset"
- Now they implicate a BMW "81 Einlassventil : vorne links (inlet valve, front left)"
- I ordered the pins to test the brake pressure sensor (but I don't think it's that anymore 'cuz the diagnostic tools no longer implicate it).
- Nobody seems to know what an "inlet valve, front left" is, let alone how to test it.

MY PLANS:
- I plan on testing the brake pressure sensor and reporting the results (thanks for your comparison results!)
- I hope to locate the "inlet valve, front left" and test it (somehow)
- If both test good, I plan on sending my ABS control module out for a rebuild
Post 86:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
The more I look this up, the more I think you're right that it's the ABS module masquerading as a series of red-herring errors.

For example, this BMW Bosch 5.7 error resolution says "Inlet/Outlet valve" fault codes could actually indicate a bad ABS control module (having nothing to do with the inlet or outlet valves themselves).
Note: At this point, I realized the reading for the bad brake pressure sensor 'was' a red herring - so I had the ABS control module rebuilt by ATE for about $105 (plus $25 UPS shipping to ATE) - and the trifecta went away (never to return).

Since I never actually TESTED my brake pressure sensor, I leave it to those who actually will test it to assemble the scattered information above into a simple test DIY suitable for others to just follow, step by step.

Here's what I wrote, way back in post #463 of the canonical ABS thread in August last year:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Please note post #67 of this thread which shows I originally attempted to test my brake pressure sensor (based on 'bogus readings from Carsoft 6.5).



I read what the inputs were, what the outputs were, how it was wired, where the wires went, how to make a test jig, what readings to expect under brake pedal pressure, etc.



In the end, I didn't test the sensor (too much effort for no gain whatsoever); and, I was vindicated in my approach.

Of course, had the indicated brake pressure sensor actually been the culprit, my efforts would not have culminated with rebuilding the ABS control module - and they would probably have included those tests that we came up with to test the brake pressure sensor.

Last edited by bluebee; 01-07-2012 at 11:22 AM. Reason: Added the relevant posts on how to test the brake pressure sensor one by one ...
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  #4  
Old 01-06-2012, 02:03 PM
bluebee's Avatar
bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjay27 View Post
Is there a pin from the ABS pinout that corresponds to this wire for testing?
Here's the pinout as listed in the canonical thread, starting at post #222.

Post #222:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
...
I don't know why I do these things, but I unboxed my pristine electrical Bently, headed over to pages ELE-15 to ELE-18 (for DSC) and to pages ELE-21 to ELE-27 (for ASC), listing in text what the wiring diagrams showed me.
... stuff unrelated to the brake pressure sensor removed ...

ELE-15, ABS/Traction Control, ABS/DSC control module (A65), (3 of 4):
Pin 25 ABS/DSC control module, A65 = 0.75 WS/BL --> Pin 1 of X1654, B76 Pressure sensor

Pin 26 ABS/DSC control module, A65 = 0.75 BL/WS --> Pin 2 of X1654, B76 Pressure sensor

Pin 42 ABS/DSC control module, A65 = 0.75 SW/VI --> Pin 3 of X1654, B76 Pressure sensor
...
Reading that 500-post thread further ... and culling out brake pressure sensor test tidbits so that the OP can write a DIY ...

Post 250:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
...Fault codes are not intended to be diagnoses. Whatever scan tool you use, a fault code(s) rarely leads to a solution without more testing.
...
The software a BMW dealer uses to read fault codes (INPA, GT1/DIS) also allows measurements (e.g., brake pressure) and activation of various components (e.g., ABS solenoids, pre-charge pump). ...

Post #252:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 540iman View Post
...the diagnosis, as given by some equipment, will be wrong and may lead to replacement of parts and the problem will still be there.

You must, as you say, get more tests that will further define the problem.

Initially, I think I was of the opinion that 90% of the time, problems with the trifecta lights will ultimately be a bad module and 10% a bad sensor. I now think it is more like 70-30.

I have found more bad sensors lately, but have NEVER found one that tested bad and was really good or vice verse.

I would bet a paycheck that if Agent15 or anyone for that matter has the sensor in his hand and can get meter leads deep into the sensor such that he can test either in ohms or voltage bias forward and reverse (diode test) and the sensor tests bad, that it IS bad.

Conversely, if it tests "ok" meaning there is a definite difference when meter leads are reversed and sensor does not test open or shorted BOTH ways- it is NOT the fault.

The main point is that any diagnostic equipment that does not test by going between the sensors and the module simply can not definitively see a bad module from a bad sensor.

It is as simple as stating that a blood pressure cuff can not diagnose whether high blood pressure reading at a cuff is because of a faulty heart or a clotted artery.

You must somehow get readings I suspect (certainly not a Dr.!) between the heart valves or whatever you do to isolate. If your Indy or dealer hooks up to your OBDII port or your 20 pin and definitively tells you that you have a bad wheel speed sensor, that person is full of doo-doo.

Only thing you can diagnose correctly 100% of the time from either of these two points is a bad module due to a communication error or similar. They can not tell a bad input (sensor) from a bad module at these test points.
Post #253:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Car1951 View Post
My problem (The best of my knowledge) come from Pressure Sensor, I purchased it but before to replace it I would like to ask you if I need to bleed the rear brake (my diagram says that Pressure sensor is connected on the rear brake line of the Hydro unit).

In other words; when I will replace the pressure sensor must I bleed the rear brake?

Second, are there a tool that we can use at the moment that we need to replace the Pressure Sensor without disconnect the pipe line connected to the Hydro Unit?
Post #254:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 540iman View Post
Faulty pressure sensor indication can be another one of those input sensor errors that end up really being the module.

You need to back-probe pressure sensor to see what your output is with no pedal pressure and then with pedal pushed hard.

It might be your sensor, but just like any other input to the module, unless you physically test that sensor don't be surprised if your error remains. Bad pressure sensors are very uncommon.
Post #255 (edited to make sense because the poster below didn't make any sense):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Car1951 View Post
My conclusion is based on a test of brake pedal output volts at the pressure sensor which should be above 4.47 volts ... and linear volts depending on the driver pressure on the brake pedal.
Post #256:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 540iman View Post
you did not say how you tested or arrived at conclusion and many just go by carsoft error or some such crap (and I have Carsoft).

You back-probed and did your homework.

Not sure if it should be zero with no pedal, but you are dead nuts on...it should raise with full pressure toward 5VDC. May be 0-4.5VDC or .5V-5.0 point is that it varies proportionately like you said as pedal pressure changes.
Post #257:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Car1951 View Post
...
I will need to replace the pressure sensor but there are a little room to do this job because line pipes and location for BMW X5 2001, I don't want to un-install a line pipe I believe that I will need to bleed the system. If I do so.

Brake Pressure Sensor

A brake pressure sensor is installed in the hydraulic unit to determine the degree of pressure build-up for Dynamic Brake Control. It is installed in the front axle brake circuit. The sensor receives its power supply from the DSC control module and produces a linear voltage input signal ranging from 0.5 to 4.5 volts depending on how hard the brakes are applied.

Brake Light Switch (BLS)

The brake switch is an input to the DSC Module to inform it that the brakes are
being applied. If the signal is received during an ASC regulation then brake regulation is interrupted.
Post #258:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
Car1951, how did you arrive at the conclusion that your pressure sensor might be bad? Did you retrieve any fault codes? If so, what software did you use and what were the codes? Or did you just start doing the tests described in this thread?

If you did get a fault code suggesting a pressure sensor problem and your X5 has DSC 5.7, I suggest you perform the pressure sensor test via the precharge pump described in the WDS:



You will need INPA or GT1/DIS to perform these tests, but you can get the software free and interface and cables for less than $50. (See my post #250 above.) That's a lot cheaper than throwing money at parts based on the voltage test described in this thread, which has never been verified.

I'm struggling with a similar problem right now. I originally got Carsoft code 86 (outlet valve front right) but now I'm getting 115 (ABS/ASC control unit internal error). (I don't find Carsoft errors to be reliable - I'm only reporting them for completeness.)

INPA consistently shows:



and DIS shows:





The brake pressure (measured with DIS) with the pedal not depressed is 0 bar, so DIS says the possible problems are a lose contact or high frequency interference:


I haven't found any loose contact and I have no idea what might be a source of high frequency interference. So I'm going through the WDS "Pressure sensor test via the precharge pump" shown above, but I'm a bit confused by the two statements "Fault currently not present" - I suspect that the second should read Fault currently present. The fault is present after a precharge pump test and the pressure with the engine running and maximum force on the brake pedal is above 80 bar (about 85-100 bar). I can activate the precharge pump with INPA - I can hear it run - but I guess it's output is too low. The only thing I haven't done yet is "ventilate DSC hydraulics," i.e., bleed the brakes with DIS, but it's looking like I'll need a new precharge pump.

In answer to your question about bleeding the brakes, you will need to but it must be done with activation of the DSC module using DIS:
Post #324:
Quote:
Originally Posted by truelies View Post
Hydraulic Pressure Sensor and the brake Pressure Sensor are same thing, is that correct?
Post #327:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
That's how most of us seem to be using the terms.

Post #325:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSned View Post
I have a friend who works for BMW who hooked up the car to the diagnostic machine which said it was a brake pressure sensor fault....I tried testing the pressure sensor by back probing and noticed I was getting a constant 4.8V from both live wires even when the brake pedal was being pushed with the engine running.

from what ive read the voltage should change depending on the pressure applied to the pedal. Does this sound like the pressure sensor or could this still be a module issue?
Post #326:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
...Please post a picture of your flying-leads setup as you will be the FIRST person here to have done this so you should give back to the team and enlighten us.
Post #334:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSned View Post
Bluebee,
You asked me to post pics of my set up for back probing the pressure sensor, unfortunately I opted for a very crude method of piercing the insulation on the 2 lives and checked the voltage that way....
Im not a mechanic or tech, I opt for problem solving using research and a common sense approach which in my case told me it wasn't the pressure sensor due to fact I had various different symptoms at different times, I guessed if it was sensor then it would be same symptoms all the time.

I put this theory to my mechanic who replied saying" sometimes you have to trust the machine" Easy when its not his cash I guess!

Anyway I stuck with my theory and got my hands on a second hand module, fitted it and problem instantly sorted.
Post #328:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
What makes you think the BMW diagnostic machines are "hooked up wrong?"

They scan for fault codes and then provide a series of tests to determine what the cause of the fault is.

It's no different in principle from what you and Bill recommend, except that the BMW diagnostic equipment allows you do more extensive testing than just measure resistances and voltages.

For example, the software that the BMW diagnostic machines use (e.g., INPA, DIS) allows the tech to activate the ABS/DSC components (e.g., DSC pump and valves, precharge pump) and measure pressures, among other things.

The pressure sensor test via the precharge pump is much more reliable than the pressure sensor voltage tests that you and Bill have suggested.
Post #460:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee
BMW ABS/ASC Bosch 5.7 Table of error codes:
... very many unrelated codes deleted ...
81 Pressure Sensor
114 Pressure Sensor Offset
115 Pressure Sensor Interface
Post #462:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
...
Fault codes for the ABS system are stored in the DSC module, and represent abnormal communications with the various sensors/components of the ABS system. Thus a wheel sensor code means that the DSC module sees an absent or or implausible wheel sensor signal.

The problem is not as Bill says, "the way they're hooked up," but the fact that something in the circuit that processes the wheel sensor signal within the DSC module (such as a break in the internal wiring, or a burned out resistor, etc) will appear the same to the DSC module as an abnormal signal originating in the wheel sensor or in the wiring between the sensor and the module.

The same type of thing can happen with any of 20 or so other control modules, but unfortunately internal problems in the DSC module seem to be far more common than in the other control module....
Post #473:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Quick99Si wrote up an excellent diagnostic treatise today where he successfully employed the Autologic Diagnostic Scanner, Peake, and he began using EDIABAS, INPA, GT1 diagnostic tools:
- My experience with the trifecta lights (ABS/DSC/Brake)

Reproduced below are just some of the diagnostic tests he ran!
... unrelated stuff deleted ...
TEST 4A: Brake Pressure Sensor
This sensor is located on the upper back side of the ABS distribution block. Mine looked to be in good condition despite the semi-awkward factory angle of the connector wiring, but the troubleshooting sequence asks to ensure that it detects smooth and linear pressure. I jumped into the car, started up the engine, and very very slowly applied the brakes while my buddy logged the data. It showed a linear increase in brake pressure and a max of something around 200 bar at full depression and idle engine speed. BPS is OK.
... unrelated stuff deleted ...
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Last edited by bluebee; 01-07-2012 at 11:26 AM.
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  #5  
Old 01-06-2012, 03:52 PM
kimokk kimokk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
While that may be true, it still would be nice if the OP can assemble the information above (and below) to create a simple step-by-step DIY for testing the brake pressure sensor.



Whom, may I ask, did you send yours to?
It would be good for you to post the results here:
- Summary of all known ABS control module rebuilder options & new suppliers with prices (1)
I sent mine to ASI/ATI autoecu. I chose them because they were the closest to me even though some on another forum ranked them third behind BBA-reman and module masters. I should have followed their advice. ASI/ATI does have a lifetime warranty and money back guarantee as well but I couldn't wait to send it in for another repair since my car was up for the annual safety inspection.
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Last edited by kimokk; 01-06-2012 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 01-07-2012, 12:06 AM
bjay27 bjay27 is offline
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Ok Thanks everyone for all the info, I did not find the later threads discussing the brake pressure sensor test on my prior searches so thank you for pointing them out.
Bluebee thanks for the condescending ohms law refresher, but more importantly, you helped me prove the DIY for the brake pressure sensor is still incomplete.
Regarding my actual car issue, I havenít hooked up any software/code readers so this is purely a grassroots troubleshoot, no need to get into the "fancy shmancy" software circle jerk debates.
Also, Iím not sure what you mean by "flying leads", I just use the wire pierce method with a sharp pinpoint tester/lead to test wires "in-situ".
Plan:
I will try another DMM for Ohm/Diode testing; maybe my old fluke is going out on me.
I will post again with a good DIY on brake pressure sensor testing with pictures and labels, as still no-one has discussed which exact wires to test.
I will try and correlate the 3 brake sensor wires to any corresponding pins on the ABS/DSC module pinout

Ironically, I performed my In-Situ test, just as 540iman described:
Originally Posted by 540iman
Bluebee, why are you making this more difficult than it is? Start the car or turn the key to position#2. You don't need an adapter or any tool!
You can strip a tiny bit of insulation away from each of the three wires if it is easier than to just back-probe into the connector.

Attach your ground VOM wire to any good ground- use the strut tower nuts.
Take the remaining positive meter lead and test each of the three wires one at a time.
One will read 0.0, one will read approx. 5.0 VDC, and one will read somewhere less like maybe .5 VDC or somewhere close.
Then, start the car and have someone press the brake pedal while you observe the wire voltage that was less than 5.0VDC.
This will be the follower voltage. That's all there is to it..

I did exactly this, and Iím telling the E39 folks all you have to do is turn you car or key on, ground your DMM, then pierce the wire exiting the rear of the brake pressure sensor with white on it and measure the voltage change with brake pressure. Prior posts suggest it should fluctuate between .50-4.5 volts. Mine does not, Iím going to risk replacing it.

Iím almost certain the sensor should function regardless of the ABS/DSC unit,(as long as it has input voltage) as its function is to relay to the ABS/DSC unit an increased output voltage proportional to the hydraulic pressure exerted, and the ABS/DSC unit processes this signal.
To highlight an important point Bluebee and others keeps making, if you are reading code errors which point to the brake pressure sensor, you are only testing the ABS/DSC unit's 'interpretation' of the sensors signal (as is the case with any of the sensors) and so a fault code could mean a bad ABS unit or sensor or even both. Which is why this DIY is somewhat important, as it bypasses the ABS/DSC unit.
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:49 PM
kimokk kimokk is offline
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It's most likely your ABS DSC module. I just went through this exact same thing on my '02 530i. At first I sent my module in to get rebuilt but the repair shop didn't do a good job so I ended up buying a new one from EACeuroparts for $489. If you go the rebuilt route, use BBA-reman or module masters. If you go the new route, you wil have to get the module coded to your DME either at the dealer or from an indy shop (about an hour labor cost).

As an aside, I took it to the dealer after I got my rebuilt module back because I still had the three lights (ABS, DSC and brake). Dealer did diagnostics and said my hydro pump inlet valve was stuck and wanted to replace the whole unit (DSC module and hydro pump) at a reasonable cost of $2800! After they revived me from falling on the floor, I said no thank you.

I still thought it was the faulty module so instead of sending my rebuilt module back to be re-repaired under warranty, I just bit the bullet and ordered a new one. However, I did get a full refund for the faulty module repair. I also, sent it back to them after the fact so they can diagnose my faulty module. I haven't got any feedback yet.

All my three lights are out now! And car drives fine. HTH with your issue.
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Last edited by kimokk; 01-06-2012 at 01:52 PM. Reason: Added more info
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:34 PM
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In post #522 of the canonical ABS trifecta thread, I've added more detailed pictures of the connectors and I've improved the pinout annotation at the ABS harness connector with respect to the diagram above.


Last edited by bluebee; 01-07-2012 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 10-20-2014, 11:24 PM
Walopower Walopower is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
In post #522 of the canonical ABS trifecta thread, I've added more detailed pictures of the connectors and I've improved the pinout annotation at the ABS harness connector with respect to the diagram above.

I have e39 525iA 2001.
Got codes:
88 Vorlade Pumpe.
92 Druck Sensor (Plausibilitaet Vorlade Pumpe).
First was DSC+ABS light, then only DSC light.
INPA logs wheel sensors data correct.
Preload pump runs smootly with manually 12V, but activation from INPA I got it run once when I try about 10 times.
I measured Preload pump wires, 12+ on Black (groud), if I activate preload pump from INPA, it goes to GND.
Nothing in Red. I have find it from WDS where it should come.
I tested pressure sensor, but, when I measure Blue (center) wire without connected, it show 5V like violet wire, In connected it show varying voltage between 0.46V-3.0XV and grey wire (should be varying voltage) shows ground, not like in above example!
Before yesterday it works fine.
Where is problem, in ABS control box maybe?
Update: I ordered new DSC box, I can code it myself. In Europe ECU repair services cost more than USA. Let's see in next week that if it was the problem.
Then I will try to fix old box if it is reason of the problem.

(Already soldered).

Whole story:

I bought a new ABS/DSC box /Bosch 5.7 "1265950002" (same code than old one).
Then I tried to code it with NCS Expert following this help:
http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...e-w-NCS-Expert
I can read vehicle data (ZCS/FA f) from all ECUS. But then it not show DSC ECU, only ASC5 ECU (witch should not be there), but I have DSC!

Modules appears:
ABG,ASC5,EWS,GM3,IHKR,KMB,LCM;RAD,SM

I tried with old ABS box and it make same.
Then I tried code ASC5 module, it was wrong and got I got ASC5 codierindex=h10 error.
New ABS identified in INPA and I already calibrated steering wheel senser.
Old daten files or where is problem?
But I can't find newer than v.41.
I tried INPA version 4.4.7/5.0.2/6.5.2.
Do I have to install EasyDIS?

First one is old ECU and second new one.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unit BMWTNR HW SW-FSW CI DI BI/VI Date Odometer VIN ADFG Algorithm
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ABS -> 6.757.595 55 03 10 16 3C 06/01 - - - DSC5.7
ABS -> 6.769.537 55 03 10 16 3C 07/14 - - - DSC5.7

I used BMW decoder, decoded old FA/SA, activated DSC option, encoded, one number changed. Started NCS expert, readed ZCS, then entered ZCS manually, and changed one 0->9 to FA/SA number and after that, DSC module was in coding list! Then I coded it and warning lights and ABS error code was gone!
Only strange thing when I opened INPA ans DSC page, ABS+DSC light starts illuminating, no error codes, I need to read errors from other modules too.
Maybe I have to code all modules, but I am little scary to do that, because everything works now.

Edit:
I found ZCS label from trunk, it was in Nokia HIFI Bass unit. But in that is also number 03.01.06 (europe format 2006?), but there is also correct VIN, so SA should also be right
When I bought this car, there was same miscodings, I think somebody is coded it wrong in early days.
That SA code in the labes is same than was in ZCS. Very strange, no DSC, Xenons, Automatic climate, what are original equipments for sure.
I added DCS, Xenons, board computer (0550, assumed that this is low as should?), automatic climate to SA code with BMW decoder. Changed that SA to those three modules with FA_write job.
OLD modules in coding list:
ABG,ASC5,EWS,GM3,IHKR,KMB,LCM;RAD,SM
NOW:
ABG,DSC,EWS,GM3,IHKA,KMB,LCM,LWR,LWS,RAD,SM
Should LWS be here? it is controlled by DSC? (I checked also steering wheel sensor to SA code).
Then I code whole car.
Got LWR job-not-found error (maybe lights should on when prosessing), coded it independet, was ok.
Airbag light starts illuminate, it was passanger belt switch. I started BMWscanner, coded passanger belt switch current monitoring ON, airbag light goes off.
Then I use BMW Scanner to clear errors and code lights, Alarm etc. behavior to my preference.
Now there is no errors, everything works!

So it was brake pressure sensor and pump error codes, but it was a module...
I have read that sensor or pump failures are uncommon reason to errors.

Last edited by Walopower; 10-30-2014 at 12:26 PM.
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  #10  
Old 10-21-2014, 07:45 AM
Crutzy Crutzy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walopower View Post
in ABS control box maybe?
You asked the same question in the tirfecta thread.
Forget about the codes.
When the computer is bad, the computer spits out bad codes.
Everyone gets them. They are meaningless (probably).

Your problem is almost certainly the computer, so just open it up, remove the goop around the big wire, and reattach the big wire with conductive epoxy. Or just pay someone $100 to do that for you.

First double check your wheel speed sensors with a digital multimeter, but after that, reattach that wire and you're good to go.
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Old 10-23-2014, 09:52 PM
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Yet another brake pressure sensor was replaced, to no avail ...
> E39 (1997 - 2003) > 2002 E39 ASC BRAKE ABS lights on => Diagnostic Procedure & Parts Location
Quote:
Originally Posted by fortunateson View Post
Well the sensors were not tested. The initial code was brake line pressure sensor, done by two independent mechanics, so that sensor was replaced ($200). Read up on the issue and sent ABS unit to BBA , re-installed, trifecta gone! Cleared the SAS code and trifecta back as I stated. Can someone lead me to the promised land?
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Old 01-15-2012, 08:36 PM
bjay27 bjay27 is offline
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Brake Pressure sensor test Algorithm

I have read the existing info and have some updates on test procedure and different values than those anticipated. Sorry couldnt get pics to loadup so have links.
1.Brake Pressure Sensor
http://www.mediafire.com/i/?559fkika49tlu99
Voltage in/out to sensor is supplied by the ABS/DSC module (thus disconecting the ABS pinouts = cannot test voltage in/outof sensor)
- Reported power scheme via Bluebee:
Pin 1 (white/blue) variable 0.5-4.5V DC @ 0 to 150bar
Pin 2 (blue/black) ground 0V DC
Pin 3 (violet/black) power 5V DC
My results:
Differ from those above, I obtained a variable voltage from sensor from Pin2 (blue/black) not Pin 1 White/Blue, which was a ground for me.

1.Brake Pressure Sensor Testing Algorithm
http://www.mediafire.com/i/?cn71xxzlrrancar
Tools: DMM + Peircing probe, method to press down brake pedal
notes: would test sensor with car running, vs key on, as voltage output seemed more proportionate with car running.
1.With key on locate brake pressure sensor wire harness, and disconect
2.Ground DMM and ensure pin3 (violet/black has 5V, can also test ground pin)
3.Ensure you have access to pin 1 (white/blue), pin 2 (blue black) wires
-either via peircing probe, or by removing tiny portion of wire insulation
4.Start vehicle (can also turn key on, but more consistent results found with key on)
5.Ground DMM and use other (+) probe to test pin 1 (white/blue), pin 2 (blue black) wires
6.Repeat procedue while slowly applying brake pressure
7.you should find .5-4.5V change
http://www.mediafire.com/i/?683q898fw0gsiq4

Testing pins (male) to test Brake pressure sensor
I was unable to get any readings from the male pins 25,26,42, on ABS/DSC unit corresponding to the brake pressure sensor. I tried this with the key on/off and car running. It appears there may be a failsafe that shuts down the pins when the harness is disconnected. Maybe turning key on with harness connected, then disconnecting may fix this issue? That said, I do not feel placing flying leads from 25,26,42 for testing would work, as atleast in my situation, the ABS/DSC pins dont function unless the harness is plugged in.(Metaphoricaly similar to the heisenberg uncertainty principle). Also from the time wasted, I could have already tested the wires at the sensor.

My Findings
Pin 1 (white/blue) ground
Pin 2 (blue/black) variable 0.6 - 2.0V with brake pressure
Pin 3 (violet/black) power 5V DC

My Conclusion: Either the diagram submitted by bluebee is incorrect, or somehow my model (02 530i) swapped pin1 vs 2 on the brake pressure sensor, or my ABS/DCS unit is somehow bad. While my variable wire only increases to 2V, and not the theoretical 4.5V, I am hesitant to say it is faulty, as the increase is linear.
Given my Brake light trifecta symptoms and all the input from everyone here, it appears my ABS/DSC truly may be faulty. I am still waiting to purchase a new DMM to repeat sensor diode testing, and setting up a laptop to run INPA for more info.
Thanks again to everyone for all the help and info!
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjay27 View Post
Either the diagram submitted by bluebee is incorrect, or somehow my model (02 530i) swapped pin1 vs 2 on the brake pressure sensor, or my ABS/DCS unit is somehow bad.
Do you have any more information about which of the two above is the case?

BTW ... I'm not sure why this thread is hard to find (since it's in the bestlinks under "/brake pressure sensor") but maybe mjbennett9 (see below) can clear up the confusion about the diagrams and procedures we listed above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjbennett9 View Post
I've been searching for a multimeter test procedure for the pressure sensor. It's been an illusive search/find so far, but will keep looking.
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Old 03-05-2012, 07:45 PM
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It looks like our friend will be replacing his brake pressure sensor based on this post today ...
> E39 (1997 - 2003) > how to change e39 brake fluid

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjbennett9 View Post
Bavarian Technic says it's code 81 (Pressure Sensor Lead). I tried the DMM but since I live alone, it's too much. I am assuming the sensor is in fact bad. However, searching for a repair/replacement DIY for the pressure sensor seems to be as elusive. I've been googling and searching the forums, but have yet to find a DIY on pressure sensor replacement. Anyone replace a brake pressure sensor on a 2002 e39 525i before? Not sure if I need to just unplug 3 wire connector, unscrew, screw new one in (torque?), plug connector in, and off I go?

Sensor will be here Wednesday. I'll hopefully replace it after work, and I leave for Boston Thursday night. I'm hoping this gives me my ABS back for the wintery drive East. FYI, I've already replaced the ABS/DSC module with an ATE rebuilt module :-)
So, I asked him to post a quick DIY on the BPR R&R here to help others.
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Old 03-24-2012, 09:39 PM
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For the crosslinked record, there is an interesting discussion where users debate replacing the brake pressure sensor (perhaps errantly) ... when they try to diagnose the ABS trifecta ...

More details here:
- E39 (1997 - 2003) > ship off my abs module today
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Last edited by bluebee; 03-24-2012 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 04-27-2017, 03:21 PM
ictoaln ictoaln is offline
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Trifecta lights with another Brake Pressure Sensor connector pins swap

Hi James,

I read through Bluebee's 2002 E39 ASC BRAKE ABS lights on => Diagnostic Procedure & Parts Location thread http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=356272and followed the steps outlined in post #48 http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...1&postcount=48


I tested the 4 speed sensors using DMM and they all seem to be fine and not likely the culprit, despite they all have high resistance when compared to the value in bluebee's thread. They all tested with similar values in forward biased and OL in reverse biased.

Found your thread regarding the pin schema on the Break Pressure Sensor (BPS). I too observed the same Pin1/Pin2 swap (compared to Bluebee) you outlined (on my E39 2002 M5). I got 5V on Pin3 (violet/black), Pin 1 (white/blue) as ground, and I was able to see the variable voltage up to around 2V when pressing hard on the brake pedal. Wondering if you ever sent your ABS to be rebuilt and/or got it fixed. If so, what was the fix/culprit?

I had already sent my ABS to Module Repair Pro (MRP) in Van Nuys for repair once back in May 2016 (did not find out the wealth of info on this thread and the recommended BBA/Module Master at the time until afterward). The module came back and the trifecta light and the code (15 Return Pump/Brake Pressure) were gone for a few months and then returned. Not sure if MRP did not do a well enough job or the module has reached its end of life. I contacted MRP and they claimed that code 15 is not related to ABS module and they did not detect that after the repair (code 15 existed before the repair though).

I am contemplating sending the ABS unit to BBA for a 2nd opinion. If they determine it is indeed a bad ABS and can be repaired, I will have proof that the ABS is indeed bad after repair. If they determine that it is not repairable, I can then just purchase a rebuilt from them or buy a new one.


Thanks in advance

Henry

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjay27 View Post
I have read the existing info and have some updates on test procedure and different values than those anticipated. Sorry couldnt get pics to loadup so have links.
1.Brake Pressure Sensor
http://www.mediafire.com/i/?559fkika49tlu99
Voltage in/out to sensor is supplied by the ABS/DSC module (thus disconecting the ABS pinouts = cannot test voltage in/outof sensor)
- Reported power scheme via Bluebee:
Pin 1 (white/blue) variable 0.5-4.5V DC @ 0 to 150bar
Pin 2 (blue/black) ground 0V DC
Pin 3 (violet/black) power 5V DC
My results:
Differ from those above, I obtained a variable voltage from sensor from Pin2 (blue/black) not Pin 1 White/Blue, which was a ground for me.

1.Brake Pressure Sensor Testing Algorithm
http://www.mediafire.com/i/?cn71xxzlrrancar
Tools: DMM + Peircing probe, method to press down brake pedal
notes: would test sensor with car running, vs key on, as voltage output seemed more proportionate with car running.
1.With key on locate brake pressure sensor wire harness, and disconect
2.Ground DMM and ensure pin3 (violet/black has 5V, can also test ground pin)
3.Ensure you have access to pin 1 (white/blue), pin 2 (blue black) wires
-either via peircing probe, or by removing tiny portion of wire insulation
4.Start vehicle (can also turn key on, but more consistent results found with key on)
5.Ground DMM and use other (+) probe to test pin 1 (white/blue), pin 2 (blue black) wires
6.Repeat procedue while slowly applying brake pressure
7.you should find .5-4.5V change
http://www.mediafire.com/i/?683q898fw0gsiq4

Testing pins (male) to test Brake pressure sensor
I was unable to get any readings from the male pins 25,26,42, on ABS/DSC unit corresponding to the brake pressure sensor. I tried this with the key on/off and car running. It appears there may be a failsafe that shuts down the pins when the harness is disconnected. Maybe turning key on with harness connected, then disconnecting may fix this issue? That said, I do not feel placing flying leads from 25,26,42 for testing would work, as atleast in my situation, the ABS/DSC pins dont function unless the harness is plugged in.(Metaphoricaly similar to the heisenberg uncertainty principle). Also from the time wasted, I could have already tested the wires at the sensor.

My Findings
Pin 1 (white/blue) ground
Pin 2 (blue/black) variable 0.6 - 2.0V with brake pressure
Pin 3 (violet/black) power 5V DC

My Conclusion: Either the diagram submitted by bluebee is incorrect, or somehow my model (02 530i) swapped pin1 vs 2 on the brake pressure sensor, or my ABS/DCS unit is somehow bad. While my variable wire only increases to 2V, and not the theoretical 4.5V, I am hesitant to say it is faulty, as the increase is linear.
Given my Brake light trifecta symptoms and all the input from everyone here, it appears my ABS/DSC truly may be faulty. I am still waiting to purchase a new DMM to repeat sensor diode testing, and setting up a laptop to run INPA for more info.
Thanks again to everyone for all the help and info!
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  #17  
Old 04-28-2017, 08:59 AM
arthurwood arthurwood is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ictoaln View Post
despite they all have high resistance when compared to the value in bluebee's thread. They all tested with similar values in forward biased and OL in reverse biased.
You probly know ths but Ill say it anwyas in case you dont.

I read that thread when I had the same problem where I think it was suggested that the hall speed senser isn't really a diode so it will react differnt depending on how much juice your dmm puts out.

You could test that if you had two different dmms.
< 1 > Did anyone test two different dmms on the same vehicle?

What seemed to matter in that thread was that they were consistent in one direction for all four and consistent in the other direction for all four.

I would guess that they could be similar readings for the same dmm brand & model.
< 2 > Did two different people test 2 cars with the same dmm?

Unless those two test above are done you have to assume all dmms will give different actual readings but the actual reading isn't what the diantoicst step is anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ictoaln View Post
I am contemplating sending the ABS unit to BBA for a 2nd opinion. If they determine it is indeed a bad ABS and can be repaired, I will have proof that the ABS is indeed bad after repair. If they determine that it is not repairable, I can then just purchase a rebuilt from them or buy a new one.
I always wonder what happens if you send BBA a good abs module.
Do they still charge you?
How much?
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  #18  
Old 05-02-2017, 10:07 PM
ictoaln ictoaln is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arthurwood View Post
You probly know ths but Ill say it anwyas in case you dont.

I read that thread when I had the same problem where I think it was suggested that the hall speed senser isn't really a diode so it will react differnt depending on how much juice your dmm puts out.
ICTO - I am leaning towards that might be the case


Quote:
You could test that if you had two different dmms.
< 1 > Did anyone test two different dmms on the same vehicle?
ICTO - Unfortunately, I don't have a 2nd GOOD dmm I trust (I do have a 2nd dmm which is the cheapo Harbor Freight that I would not trust for this).

Quote:
What seemed to matter in that thread was that they were consistent in one direction for all four and consistent in the other direction for all four.
ICTO - Agreed. All 4 of mine have similar value and I can assume that the wheel sensors are not likely the culprit.


I would guess that they could be similar readings for the same dmm brand & model.
< 2 > Did two different people test 2 cars with the same dmm?

Unless those two test above are done you have to assume all dmms will give different actual readings but the actual reading isn't what the diantoicst step is anyways.


Quote:
I always wonder what happens if you send BBA a good abs module.
Do they still charge you?
How much?
ICTO - I will find out from them and report back if I end up choosing them.
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  #19  
Old 05-09-2017, 12:52 PM
ictoaln ictoaln is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ictoaln View Post
ICTO - I am leaning towards that might be the case

ICTO - Unfortunately, I don't have a 2nd GOOD dmm I trust (I do have a 2nd dmm which is the cheapo Harbor Freight that I would not trust for this).

ICTO - Agreed. All 4 of mine have similar value and I can assume that the wheel sensors are not likely the culprit.

I would guess that they could be similar readings for the same dmm brand & model.
< 2 > Did two different people test 2 cars with the same dmm?

Unless those two test above are done you have to assume all dmms will give different actual readings but the actual reading isn't what the diantoicst step is anyways.

ICTO - I will find out from them and report back if I end up choosing them.

Update - Sent by ABS module to BBA. They checked it out and found nothing wrong with it. They refunded my $95 and shipped it back to me.

With that, I eliminated the ABS module as the culprit. Since I tested the Break Pressure Sensor, 4 wheel speed sensors, with the fault code 15 pointing to the return pump. The next diagnostic step would be to test the ABS pump itself to confirm if it is the pump is actually the root cause before I go buy a replacement unit. I found a few videos on the removal and the testing of the ABS pump.

Remove BMW ABS Pump & Module Guide -
Good inside of pump and how to test with 12V -
E90 BMW 335i ABS Pump Replacement DIY and Calibration -


I see many ABS pump on eBay around $110 (For exmaple, http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-E38-E39-...3D302305856583).

Has anyone changed out the ABS pump on a E39? I understand that I might require reprogramming. Since my ABS unit is good, I might just use my ABS unit with the ABS pump (swap out the one that come with the pump with my ABS unit) to avoid re-programming if possible.

My questions are -

.1 - Is it a DIY that just disconnect all 6 hoses, electrical connector and reconnect the new one?
.2 - Can I just replace the ABS pump unit without bleeding the brakes?

I am concerned about the brake fluid will just spilling out when not handled properly. I also want to avoid the bleeding and re-calibrating the DSC if possible.
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  #20  
Old 04-28-2017, 04:56 PM
JEdell JEdell is offline
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Mein Auto: 2000 528iT
Quote:
Originally Posted by ictoaln View Post
I am contemplating sending the ABS unit to BBA for a 2nd opinion. If they determine it is indeed a bad ABS and can be repaired, I will have proof that the ABS is indeed bad after repair. If they determine that it is not repairable, I can then just purchase a rebuilt from them or buy a new one.

FWIW, I am currently using Module Masters and been happy with the service in the sense that they are being accommodating in trying to get my issue solved.

I sent them my module a long while ago and they repaired it and sent it back. It worked for a short time but then the lights came back with a consistent error: 114 Pressure sensor offset.

I spent some time testing other possibilities (assuming the module was working) and I spent some time ignoring the problem too. I have recently gotten serious about solving this and put together a laptop w/ INPA & DIS/GT1 and begun testing with the help of these threads. I suspect the module is still bad and contacted Module Masters to have it checked (free since it's still under warranty). They checked it, couldn't find any issues and suggested checking contacts, voltage, ground etc and sent it back.

I reinstalled it, and ran more tests including the ones mentioned in this thread. (My blue/white wire is also ground btw) When viewing live data in INPA I can see pressure change with pedal action and triggering pumps etc. When the lights are off and with no pedal the pressure is at 0-1 bar, but I got lucky and saw the error happen while the car was idling. The pressure jumped up to 9-11 bar which I assume to be the "offset."

What causes this, I don't know. I am assuming that the system knows the situation under which this occurs i.e. the car is not in motion, engine is at idle, brake pedal switch is off, pumps are off and thus classifies the extra voltage coming from the pressure sensor as an invalid offset and on go the lights. This could be an issue with module itself or the sensor or wiring.

I called Module Masters and their tech said basically the same thing and here is the crucial point I think. These modules are delicate, mysterious little boxes and I am not convinced that the techs at MM or BBA or anywhere else are completely literate in their functionality or that they have the bench rigs to fully test them. MM is sending me another core module to test (I paid a refundable $75 deposit) but I am glad that they are happy to do it.

If I did this all over again I would just bite the bullet and buy a new module. But since I didn't, at least MM is down with sending out a repaired core to test against and since I have NCS on the laptop I can easily code it.
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  #21  
Old 04-28-2017, 07:19 PM
arthurwood arthurwood is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEdell View Post
I am assuming that the system knows the situation under which this occurs i.e. the car is not in motion, engine is at idle, brake pedal switch is off, pumps are off and thus classifies the extra voltage coming from the pressure sensor as an invalid offset and on go the lights.
But doesn't the fault clear itself with each engine shutdown?

So if it comes back, it must really be there.

It can't be just a one-time glitch.
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  #22  
Old 04-28-2017, 07:27 PM
JEdell JEdell is offline
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Location: Los Angeles
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arthurwood View Post
But doesn't the fault clear itself with each engine shutdown?

So if it comes back, it must really be there.

It can't be just a one-time glitch.
Oh yeah, it comes back every time. I am just musing on how it occurs. There is either real extra pressure in the system or there is just extra voltage but either way it shows up as an offset to what the pressure/voltage should be.

I think.
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  #23  
Old 05-02-2017, 10:12 PM
ictoaln ictoaln is offline
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Location: US
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEdell View Post
FWIW, I am currently using Module Masters and been happy with the service in the sense that they are being accommodating in trying to get my issue solved.

I sent them my module a long while ago and they repaired it and sent it back. It worked for a short time but then the lights came back with a consistent error: 114 Pressure sensor offset.

I spent some time testing other possibilities (assuming the module was working) and I spent some time ignoring the problem too. I have recently gotten serious about solving this and put together a laptop w/ INPA & DIS/GT1 and begun testing with the help of these threads. I suspect the module is still bad and contacted Module Masters to have it checked (free since it's still under warranty). They checked it, couldn't find any issues and suggested checking contacts, voltage, ground etc and sent it back.

I reinstalled it, and ran more tests including the ones mentioned in this thread. (My blue/white wire is also ground btw) When viewing live data in INPA I can see pressure change with pedal action and triggering pumps etc. When the lights are off and with no pedal the pressure is at 0-1 bar, but I got lucky and saw the error happen while the car was idling. The pressure jumped up to 9-11 bar which I assume to be the "offset."

What causes this, I don't know. I am assuming that the system knows the situation under which this occurs i.e. the car is not in motion, engine is at idle, brake pedal switch is off, pumps are off and thus classifies the extra voltage coming from the pressure sensor as an invalid offset and on go the lights. This could be an issue with module itself or the sensor or wiring.

I called Module Masters and their tech said basically the same thing and here is the crucial point I think. These modules are delicate, mysterious little boxes and I am not convinced that the techs at MM or BBA or anywhere else are completely literate in their functionality or that they have the bench rigs to fully test them. MM is sending me another core module to test (I paid a refundable $75 deposit) but I am glad that they are happy to do it.

If I did this all over again I would just bite the bullet and buy a new module. But since I didn't, at least MM is down with sending out a repaired core to test against and since I have NCS on the laptop I can easily code it.
[ICTO] - JEdell - Thanks for the info on MM. How much MM charges for repair? I went to their website and found that the rebuild/repair price is $300 vs BBA $95 from ebay. Just want to make sure the $300 is the repair, not buying a rebuilt unit. If it is indeed $300, I'd rather get a new one around $500. I would go with MM if they are willing to ship me another core to test (I will gladly pay for refundable deposit). I just want to make sure it is the unit before I pull the trigger to get a rebuilt or new replacement. I will call MM tomorrow to find out.

Last edited by ictoaln; 05-02-2017 at 10:21 PM.
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  #24  
Old 05-02-2017, 10:19 PM
ictoaln ictoaln is offline
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Location: US
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 9
Mein Auto: M5
Quote:
Originally Posted by JEdell View Post
FWIW, I am currently using Module Masters and been happy with the service in the sense that they are being accommodating in trying to get my issue solved.

I sent them my module a long while ago and they repaired it and sent it back. It worked for a short time but then the lights came back with a consistent error: 114 Pressure sensor offset.

I spent some time testing other possibilities (assuming the module was working) and I spent some time ignoring the problem too. I have recently gotten serious about solving this and put together a laptop w/ INPA & DIS/GT1 and begun testing with the help of these threads. I suspect the module is still bad and contacted Module Masters to have it checked (free since it's still under warranty). They checked it, couldn't find any issues and suggested checking contacts, voltage, ground etc and sent it back.

I reinstalled it, and ran more tests including the ones mentioned in this thread. (My blue/white wire is also ground btw) When viewing live data in INPA I can see pressure change with pedal action and triggering pumps etc. When the lights are off and with no pedal the pressure is at 0-1 bar, but I got lucky and saw the error happen while the car was idling. The pressure jumped up to 9-11 bar which I assume to be the "offset."

What causes this, I don't know. I am assuming that the system knows the situation under which this occurs i.e. the car is not in motion, engine is at idle, brake pedal switch is off, pumps are off and thus classifies the extra voltage coming from the pressure sensor as an invalid offset and on go the lights. This could be an issue with module itself or the sensor or wiring.

I called Module Masters and their tech said basically the same thing and here is the crucial point I think. These modules are delicate, mysterious little boxes and I am not convinced that the techs at MM or BBA or anywhere else are completely literate in their functionality or that they have the bench rigs to fully test them. MM is sending me another core module to test (I paid a refundable $75 deposit) but I am glad that they are happy to do it.

If I did this all over again I would just bite the bullet and buy a new module. But since I didn't, at least MM is down with sending out a repaired core to test against and since I have NCS on the laptop I can easily code it.
[ICTO] - JEdell - how much MM charges for repair? I went to their website and found that the rebuild/repair price is $300 vs BBA $95 from ebay. Just want to make sure the $300 is the repair, not buying a rebuilt unit. If it is indeed $300, I'd rather get a new one around $500.
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  #25  
Old 05-03-2017, 03:32 PM
JEdell JEdell is offline
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Location: Los Angeles
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 20
Mein Auto: 2000 528iT
Quote:
Originally Posted by ictoaln View Post
[ICTO] - JEdell - how much MM charges for repair? I went to their website and found that the rebuild/repair price is $300 vs BBA $95 from ebay. Just want to make sure the $300 is the repair, not buying a rebuilt unit. If it is indeed $300, I'd rather get a new one around $500.
Just spoke to MM, here is the skinny...

$300 is for repair of your existing module. $375 to buy one of their already repaired modules from stock. Both come with 5 year warranty. Agreed that is kinda pricey but when I purchased from them originally the cheapest new module I could find was $600+ and I hadn't heard of BBA.

In my current situation it is cheaper to replace mine with another core from them for $75 and get another 5 years on the warranty than save a few bucks and let the old warranty run out.

No brainer for me but for you I would say really consider the warranty since these things have such a short lifespan. For instance FCP Euro sells them new for $572 and they have a lifetime guarantee on all their parts but does that mean they will really replace it in 5-10 years if it fails?
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