No Manual?? What happened?!

I traded my 2002 E46 coupe for a TSX back in 2010... Lease is ending and I'd like to come back to BMW. But I'm finding that in the intervening time BMW is beginning to jettison the manual transmission completely for the US market.

But what's more shocking is that there's no talk of it here. I've been pouring through the threads and either I'm missing it, or no one cares.

Really? No 328xi with a stick? Really?? Not even for European delivery? Jesus H Christ.

People, we need to start a letter writing campaign, show up with pitchforks, start building voodoo dolls. Whatever. This is awful. Is Audi or Mini all that's left? Is there no way to speak up?

Steve

There is a manual available. It's called 335xi. BMW isn't dumb- they know that most of their manual buyers that choose manual for fun/performance also prefer the larger engine. Those folks also prefer RWD. That's why they dropped the manual option from 328xi, 528xi.

And the "not even for ED?" comment is a little silly. Not to single you out as many others make that point too. ED cars are the same exact thing you would get in the US. They can't slip in engine/transmission choices that were not federalized for the US market just because you happen to be picking up at the Welt. lol

Originally Posted by fabiani

I traded my 2002 E46 coupe for a TSX back in 2010... Lease is ending and I'd like to come back to BMW. But I'm finding that in the intervening time BMW is beginning to jettison the manual transmission completely for the US market.

But what's more shocking is that there's no talk of it here. I've been pouring through the threads and either I'm missing it, or no one cares.

Really? No 328xi with a stick? Really?? Not even for European delivery? Jesus H Christ.

People, we need to start a letter writing campaign, show up with pitchforks, start building voodoo dolls. Whatever. This is awful. Is Audi or Mini all that's left? Is there no way to speak up?

Steve

Steve,

I agree with you and I'll also add that I feel BMW stopped advancing the manual transmission circa 2007 for their line-up. I've seen no press releases on advanced new syncro design, nothing new on clutch or flywheel design and lightening, no rev-matching on downshift feature that's coming out on Nissan and Porsche. Heck, Porsche is doing a7-speed manual nowadays - at least they are trying something.

To be fair, I don't know how much it costs to federalize a model with a different engine/transmission combo. I can look at other manufacturers and see, even at far lower volumes, they do it - so I imagine the never-before-been-as-profitable BMW could do it. Heck, do it on just ONE model every THREE years and tell enthusiasts it's coming and going, so they can buy/lease.

I agree with the sentiments that the modern automatic is a joy to behold and drive in terms of speed, efficiency, and even weight is coming down. I still want a 3rd pedal in cars I'm driving for fun.

If you start a campaign, let me know. I'll lend some money and some effort. I want each 1 and 3 series available with a manual. I want a manual 5-series wagon, if one ever comes back. I want an x3 with a manual. And so help me God if they take away our manual-trans M3's!!!

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Steve,

I agree with you and I'll also add that I feel BMW stopped advancing the manual transmission circa 2007 for their line-up. I've seen no press releases on advanced new syncro design, nothing new on clutch or flywheel design and lightening, no rev-matching on downshift feature that's coming out on Nissan and Porsche. Heck, Porsche is doing a7-speed manual nowadays - at least they are trying something.

To be fair, I don't know how much it costs to federalize a model with a different engine/transmission combo. I can look at other manufacturers and see, even at far lower volumes, they do it - so I imagine the never-before-been-as-profitable BMW could do it. Heck, do it on just ONE model every THREE years and tell enthusiasts it's coming and going, so they can buy/lease.

I agree with the sentiments that the modern automatic is a joy to behold and drive in terms of speed, efficiency, and even weight is coming down. I still want a 3rd pedal in cars I'm driving for fun.

If you start a campaign, let me know. I'll lend some money and some effort. I want each 1 and 3 series available with a manual. I want a manual 5-series wagon, if one ever comes back. I want an x3 with a manual. And so help me God if they take away our manual-trans M3's!!!

We need to understand that BMW does not make sports cars. Porsche and the Nissan Z are sports cars and this makes it feasible to invest in r and d for sporty transmissions. BMW makes family sedans that at least in the 3 series are sporty. The market for a 3 series with some new advanced MT is tiny and not worth the investment.

OP, there are numerous threads here about manual vs automatic transmissions. But the truth is that at least 95% of 3 series buyers opt for automatic transmissions. If you want a car with a MT, you may need to order one.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

We need to understand that BMW does not make sports cars. Porsche and the Nissan Z are sports cars and this makes it feasible to invest in r and d for sporty transmissions. BMW makes family sedans that at least in the 3 series are sporty. The market for a 3 series with some new advanced MT is tiny and not worth the investment.

OP, there are numerous threads here about manual vs automatic transmissions. But the truth is that at least 95% of 3 series buyers opt for automatic transmissions. If you want a car with a MT, you may need to order one.

What? BMW, 3-series specifically, has invented sports sedan subclass and has established the yard stick it is fighting now with MB C-class, Caddy ATS, Infiniti G-series, etc.

Originally Posted by lqaddict

What? BMW, 3-series specifically, has invented sports sedan subclass and has established the yard stick it is fighting now with MB C-class, Caddy ATS, Infiniti G-series, etc.

The point is that none of these are sports cars and comparing them to cars like the Nissan Z, and the Porsche Cayman and 911 is apples to oranges. The market for the cars are not the same. Sport sedan is not sports car. You can invent all kinds of cool tranny tricks but if no one wants them then it's a waste of time and money.

Originally Posted by lqaddict

What? BMW, 3-series specifically, has invented sports sedan subclass and has established the yard stick it is fighting now with MB C-class, Caddy ATS, Infiniti G-series, etc.

Contrary to common belief BMW did not invent the sport sedan. The 1600/2002 popularized the concept in the US although they were 2 doors and could be considered coupes. But in that era there were cars that were referred to as "Two Door Sedans". The 3 Series has been the benchmark in the sports sedan segment for many years but it was not the original.

Jaguar, Alfa Romeo, Saab, Lancia and other (mainly European) manufacturers were making sport sedans years before BMW introduced the 1600/2002.






CA

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Contrary to common belief BMW did not invent the sport sedan. The 1600/2002 popularized the concept in the US although they were 2 doors and could be considered coupes. But in that era there were cars that were referred to as "Two Door Sedans". The 3 Series has been the benchmark in the sports sedan segment for many years but it was not the original.

Jaguar, Alfa Romeo, Saab, Lancia and other (mainly European) manufacturers were making sport sedans years before BMW introduced the 1600/2002.






CA

Thanks CA for a lesson in automotive history!

Originally Posted by fabiani

People, we need to start a letter writing campaign, show up with pitchforks, start building voodoo dolls. Whatever. This is awful. Is Audi or Mini all that's left? Is there no way to speak up?

There is but one way to sway BMW: Show them the money!

If you can't demonstrate a financial advantage, you're still constitutionally guaranteed your right t'yak away. Good luck on that.

Guessing M will offer a manual.

BMW could always try a low-production model offering an upcharge for a manual trans on it - i.e. a 328xi manual adds +$1k to the bill.

If federalizing is, say, $100k to add such a model then the breakeven point would be fairly low.

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

BMW could always try a low-production model offering an upcharge for a manual trans on it - i.e. a 328xi manual adds +$1k to the bill.

In UK nowadays the AT is still a £1500 option(same for many Euro countries). The same was also true for US-sold AT 10+ years back($1500 extra for AT). BMW still sells tons of MT in Europe and Asia. With all the advanced robotics and just-in-time production capabilities in the Munich plant it would seem the low-production argument is just an excuse used by BMWNA(in addition to the dealerships complaining low sales on MT).

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

... no rev-matching on downshift feature that's coming out on Nissan and Porsche. ... To be fair, I don't know how much it costs to federalize a model with a different engine/transmission combo.
...
If federalizing is, say, $100k to add such a model then the breakeven point would be fairly low.

The new M5 has downshift rev-matching (probably the M6, too).
Cost to federalize and obtain EPA approval for a drivetrain is well into seven figures, i.e., millions of dollars, per engine & transmission combination.

Originally Posted by namelessman

With all the advanced robotics and just-in-time production capabilities in the Munich plant it would seem the low-production argument is just an excuse used by BMWNA....

It is a matter of sales, not production. Vehicles equipped with a manual transmission now account for 3% or less of 3 Series models sold in the US. The percentage of total sales across all models is far lower.

The problem with MT cars, as with other low-demand (in the US) models like the 5 Series Touring (wagon), is simply this: We say we want them, we wring our hands, we beat our chests and the tables, we storm and bluster on the Internet...and then we buy something else. BMW NA/AG have listened to letter-writing campaigns and such, but each time the demands are not backed up by large sales numbers, they are less inclined to accommodate the next one.

The previous-generation 5er wagon, despite a large and vocal following, sold fewer than 900 units nationwide in the last full calendar year it was available in the US. That's fewer than 75 cars per month. Wagon fans were failing to convince their friends to actually buy the darn things, while SAV sales kept climbing. So BMW said nein to bringing the next one.

Manual transmissions are headed the same way: A lot of people who want a manual option end up actually taking the auto instead, for a variety of reasons (spousal disagreement, aging joints, city commuting, etc.). Every such sale is another nail in the coffin. And this was happening when a manual cost $1000-$2000 less than an automatic. Now, it's merely a no-cost option and the slide continues. Add a $1000 premium to order a manual in a 3er and it will be gone overnight (i.e., in one generation).

An MT in a BMW is a tough sell in the US because most people here think of BMW as luxury first, sport second. We fans of the stick are a tiny, tiny minority of the US driving public. When I sold my E46, fully 50% of otherwise-interested parties hung up the phone when I told them it was a manual (never mind that I plainly said so in all advertising... ). I can't even imagine how many never even called, for an otherwise pristine car. I don't expect selling this one someday to be an easy task (in fact, I doubt I will even bother advertising it outside the BMW community).

Originally Posted by Zeichen311

And this was happening when a manual cost $1000-$2000 less than an automatic. Now, it's merely a no-cost option and the slide continues. Add a $1000 premium to order a manual in a 3er and it will be gone overnight (i.e., in one generation).

It would make sense to offer MT with a $1500 discount over AT in the US, but of course BMWNA can then say AT is a no-cost option.

Originally Posted by fabiani

I traded my 2002 E46 coupe for a TSX back in 2010... Lease is ending and I'd like to come back to BMW. But I'm finding that in the intervening time BMW is beginning to jettison the manual transmission completely for the US market.

But what's more shocking is that there's no talk of it here. I've been pouring through the threads and either I'm missing it, or no one cares.

Really? No 328xi with a stick? Really?? Not even for European delivery? Jesus H Christ.

People, we need to start a letter writing campaign, show up with pitchforks, start building voodoo dolls. Whatever. This is awful. Is Audi or Mini all that's left? Is there no way to speak up?

Steve

Meh... if it means that much, you need to go to another brand, or buy a non XI model.

The mindset across the pond is one of wonder and amusement when viewing our American love of manual transmissions. Remember the M5? They came out with a manual transmission model just for US.

The direction of the auto industry seems to be leaning to car doing everything vs the driver; just look at the automatic headlights and now automatic high beams. If people can't even push the stalk forward/backward to turn the highbeams on/off, how can they drive a stick shift?

New manual cars are disappearing very quickly .... not many manufacturers make manual gearboxes anymore

driveres on this planet are getting lazy

I'm not a mechanic, so forgive me if this sounds unrealistic. With all the technology in vehicles these days, am I naive in thinking a true manual with an automatic mode should have been developed and in production by now? I'm not talking about a DCT, It would be your typical 6MT, but you would have a gate (maybe where a 7th gear could go, opposite side of shifter, how R works on the Getrag transmission), that you could shift into there, and then the car would behave like an automatic, with no need to manually shift. The gate could only be engaged while in Neutral for safety reasons. It could electronically disable the clutch pedal when this mode is activated, engage a torque converter, and even have it enable paddle shifters for those who enjoy using those with ATs. This way, manual drivers get what they want, automatic drivers get what they want, and everyone's happy. If they can program cars to drive themselves, is this really that much more difficult? Wouldn't there be a market for this type of transmission?

Originally Posted by jfox335i

I'm not a mechanic, so forgive me if this sounds unrealistic. With all the technology in vehicles these days, am I naive in thinking a true manual with an automatic mode should have been developed and in production by now? I'm not talking about a DCT, It would be your typical 6MT, but you would have a gate (maybe where a 7th gear could go, opposite side of shifter, how R works on the Getrag transmission), that you could shift into there, and then the car would behave like an automatic, with no need to manually shift. The gate could only be engaged while in Neutral for safety reasons. It could electronically disable the clutch pedal when this mode is activated, engage a torque converter, and even have it enable paddle shifters for those who enjoy using those with ATs. This way, manual drivers get what they want, automatic drivers get what they want, and everyone's happy. If they can program cars to drive themselves, is this really that much more difficult? Wouldn't there be a market for this type of transmission?

Nice idea but you are basically talking about a car with a clutch and a torque converter, 2 transmissions. This would be expensive and heavy. Also, since there is little demand for a MT in most cars, it makes little sense to develop such a technology especially when DCT's which already provide the same options already exist.

Originally Posted by jfox335i

I'm not a mechanic, so forgive me if this sounds unrealistic. With all the technology in vehicles these days, am I naive in thinking a true manual with an automatic mode should have been developed and in production by now? I'm not talking about a DCT, It would be your typical 6MT, but ...[snip] This way, manual drivers get what they want, automatic drivers get what they want, and everyone's happy. If they can program cars to drive themselves, is this really that much more difficult? Wouldn't there be a market for this type of transmission?

It is an interesting idea, perhaps even more so when you realize you came at it from the wrong end.

First, a DCT is a "true manual" insofar as it has much of the internal construction of a manual gearbox: constant-mesh gears on multiple shafts, synchronizers, dog clutches and most importantly, a friction-plate clutch (actually, two concentric ones, hence Dual-Clutch Transmission) instead of a torque converter. The sole intrusion of automation is computer control of the hydraulically-actuated clutches.

Bearing that in mind, the driving experience you describe could be achieved almost trivially with a DCT. Provide a clutch pedal connected to nothing but a microswitch and a suitably damped spring. Provide a gear lever with an appropriate gate pattern, a means to simulate shift effort and again, nothing but a set of microswitches at the other end of the lever. Use the clutch pedal switch to signal the computer to (de-)clutch and the gearing switches to signal gear selection. Provide a control button to switch between use of these input devices and full-auto mode and there you have it: A fully automatic or fully "manual" transmission.

None of that requires any innovative technology. The hardest design problem to solve would be how the transmission should react to a botched shift. If you let the "clutch" out too soon should it grind the gears? Protect itself and dump you in neutral? React like a video game by sounding a buzzer, vibrating the wheel and/or seat and then complete the shift anyway? Should it let you stall the engine by shifting into 6th at 5mph? Best of all: How should it respond to a simulated money shift?

Most of that is a matter of programming but with all that said--such a transmission is pointless. It would add expense, complexity and risk, yet still only be an emulation of behavior that is, in all honesty, done better, faster and more accurately by up- and downshift paddles (and the simple +/- selector lever on a DCT or Steptronic). One element of the joy of driving, and mastering, a manual transmission is the challenge to strive for a perfect shift, every time. You miss it, you own it; you break it, you bought it. It's why aids like a clutch-delay valve and auto rev-matching really p!ss off a lot of die-hard fans.

The fun of a manual is in the direct, mechanical control of a piece of complex machinery and the challenge to do it well. It is no longer faster or more fuel-efficient than a top-end automatic or DCT, and while you do have more control, you do not necessarily have better control. (The number of drivers who can drive a stick well dwindles by the day, and many of the remainder don't even know they're not very good.) Take away that connection and you might as well just use whichever tech makes your car better/faster/smoother than the other guy's--because if you don't, he sure will. Anything else is affectation.

Originally Posted by Zeichen311

Best of all: How should it respond to a simulated money shift?

Automatically and immediately transfer funds from your checking account to the nearest BMW service center.

Originally Posted by 408Racer

Automatically and immediately transfer funds from your checking account to the nearest BMW service center.

Perfect! And best of all, with all the telematics already present in the car, trivial to implement.

Originally Posted by Zeichen311

The fun of a manual is in the direct, mechanical control of a piece of complex machinery and the challenge to do it well. It is no longer faster or more fuel-efficient than a top-end automatic or DCT, and while you do have more control, you do not necessarily have better control. (The number of drivers who can drive a stick well dwindles by the day, and many of the remainder don't even know they're not very good.) Take away that connection and you might as well just use whichever tech makes your car better/faster/smoother than the other guy's--because if you don't, he sure will. Anything else is affectation.

That's sort of the point. I could care less that a DCT or an AT can shift faster/better/smoother then I can. If the car is 0-60 in 4.6 with a DCT and 5.4 with a 6MT, I'll take the 6MT, I don't need the fastest 60, or quarter mile. I don't race my car, I drive it with spirit, and it's not for anyone else, it's for me. and its more fun to row the gears, to find that perfect shift, and to have that control and feel connected. While the control may not make the car drive better, it makes it more enjoyable, hence why many prefer the 6MTs, when ATs/DCTs these days are better for driving quicker/faster.

I do see your point, that maybe given the technology of a DCT, maybe I did look at it backwards. If the DCT had the ability to use a clutch, and row the gears, i'd definitely have a look at it.

and on your point of the number of drivers and their MT skills, that's part of the reason why driving an MT is awesome. I don't claim to be the best MT drive, I'm efficient, I get a passing grade, but I know I can be better, and that's awesome that I know I can be a better manual driver and I can strive for that. With an AT, can you hit the gas? great, you can drive an AT transmission, off you go. No challenge to it, and no room to improve and have something to look forward to.

Originally Posted by jfox335i

That's sort of the point. I could care less that a DCT or an AT can shift faster/better/smoother then I can. If the car is 0-60 in 4.6 with a DCT and 5.4 with a 6MT, I'll take the 6MT, I don't need the fastest 60, or quarter mile. I don't race my car, I drive it with spirit, and it's not for anyone else, it's for me. and its more fun to row the gears, to find that perfect shift, and to have that control and feel connected. While the control may not make the car drive better, it makes it more enjoyable, hence why many prefer the 6MTs, when ATs/DCTs these days are better for driving quicker/faster.

+1,000,000 It is like playing a musical instrument instead of clicking through songs in an iPod....or watching your girlfriend in the hands of a professional masseur.

Even Ferrari is phasing out the manual transmission. It's a sad state of affairs. When I went to look at the 3 series I told the CA that I wanted a manual. He told me that it's the first time that he heard that in a long time. Then he had to hunt to find the one manual transmission vehicle they had on the lot. It was actually on their overflow lot about 2 miles away.

I just ordered my car tonight: 328i with 6MT. I'd have gone with the X-Drive if it had a stick, but it doesn't. (I'm a bit concerned about RWD when it's snowy, but that's not that often here.) With market trends, I suspect that this may be my last chance to get a manual in the U.S. Maybe I'll switch to a 9AT in 2016...