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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #1  
Old 01-27-2013, 04:09 PM
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n55 vs n55HP - How do we get that extra power and torque?

I see that the N55HP has 13 more hp and 30 lb/ft torque vs the standard N55 in our F10. The N55hp comes in the 2012 and newer: F12 (6-series), F21 (1-series) & F01 (7-series).

Anyone know exactly how this power is achieved and if we can buy some OEM parts to obtain the extra power and torque of the N55HP?
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  #2  
Old 01-27-2013, 04:16 PM
smashhell smashhell is offline
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15hp is not really a noticeable difference, not sure why you want to do that.
If you want more power, the best bet is a tune.
I highly recommend the N55 Burger tune I have in my car. It's +50hp and +80 torque for $500 bucks. The power is night and day.
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Last edited by smashhell; 01-27-2013 at 04:17 PM.
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  #3  
Old 01-27-2013, 05:23 PM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smashhell View Post
15hp is not really a noticeable difference, not sure why you want to do that.
If you want more power, the best bet is a tune.
I highly recommend the N55 Burger tune I have in my car. It's +50hp and +80 torque for $500 bucks. The power is night and day.
+1...goes to show you the tunes are not that aggressive to being with as the cars have some bandwidth.
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  #4  
Old 01-27-2013, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smashhell View Post
15hp is not really a noticeable difference, not sure why you want to do that.
If you want more power, the best bet is a tune.
I highly recommend the N55 Burger tune I have in my car. It's +50hp and +80 torque for $500 bucks. The power is night and day.
50hp for $500 is just delicious. Gonna have to get that at some point.
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Old 01-27-2013, 08:06 PM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Originally Posted by DieselNY View Post
50hp for $500 is just delicious. Gonna have to get that at some point.
At $395 the Stage 1 tune is quite good too. You'll be surprised. It is upgradeable to the Stage 2. You just trade-in the module, and make a few wire modifications.
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:01 PM
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I guess my thread turned into a BMS tune infomercial . The point of this thread is not to get into a debate about TRUE power gains with piggyback tunes. I simply want to know how the power gains are had with the N55HP.


From my past experience, these slight power gains were often had from tweaked intake and exhaust manifolds. Of course with FI (forced induction) vehicles, all it takes is a little programming and or an increase in boost.
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:32 AM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Originally Posted by BigDeep1 View Post
I guess my thread turned into a BMS tune infomercial . The point of this thread is not to get into a debate about TRUE power gains with piggyback tunes. I simply want to know how the power gains are had with the N55HP.


From my past experience, these slight power gains were often had from tweaked intake and exhaust manifolds. Of course with FI (forced induction) vehicles, all it takes is a little programming and or an increase in boost.
I would think it's the latter since it is very economical to do from the factory. But it would be interesting to get the details. Maybe it's similar to the 335 BMW performance upgrades from the dealer.
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Old 01-27-2013, 11:23 PM
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K-A K-A is offline
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I'm curious about this as well. I posted in the F12 Forum the question of what the N55HP has that's different from the N55 that gives it that little extra boost in power.

What I'm really curious about is how much REAL power it has over the N55, as the N55 is very underrated (at 280 RWHP putting it around 330-340 actual crank HP).
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  #9  
Old 01-28-2013, 08:03 AM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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Originally Posted by K-A View Post
I'm curious about this as well. I posted in the F12 Forum the question of what the N55HP has that's different from the N55 that gives it that little extra boost in power.

What I'm really curious about is how much REAL power it has over the N55, as the N55 is very underrated (at 280 RWHP putting it around 330-340 actual crank HP).

How are you calculating that... lol 330-340??? You add 10%-12% which puts you right at 310. Not arguing with the number just your calculation.

I am hoping to dyno my car some time next week or two - time permitting. Then I will throw on the stage 1 (If I can ever get it back from my deadbeat friend bigdeep) Then I will post some numbers.

BigD - I believe the answer to your question is going to be software. I tried searching for you, but everything just says "fine tuning" This to me indicates that perhaps it was nothing mechanical.
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  #10  
Old 01-28-2013, 08:47 AM
RambleJ RambleJ is offline
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I agree with Miami. Its just a software tweak. When you're dealing with a turbo'd car a simple addition of 1-2 psi can get you that additional 15-20 HP.
And I am glad too see that smash has came to a realization of the true HP increase of the N55 BMS tune.
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  #11  
Old 01-28-2013, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
How are you calculating that... lol 330-340??? You add 10%-12% which puts you right at 310. Not arguing with the number just your calculation.

I am hoping to dyno my car some time next week or two - time permitting. Then I will throw on the stage 1 (If I can ever get it back from my deadbeat friend bigdeep) Then I will post some numbers.

BigD - I believe the answer to your question is going to be software. I tried searching for you, but everything just says "fine tuning" This to me indicates that perhaps it was nothing mechanical.
From what I've "learned" in Dyno testing, RWD Auto cars generally see 15-20% drivetrain/etc. loss by the time it gets to the rear wheels. 10-12% is very efficient (not sure if that's even possible on an Auto?).

There's a dyno sheet I recently saw that said a "general rule is to divide by .xx(number). When I did that, it came out to roughly 20% drivetrain loss.

Also, if you look at the 535i's consensus trap speed in the 1/4 mile, being around 100 MPH (give or take depending on various tests), and weighing at about 4,000 lbs, it shows that it should pin it right at around 340 HP.

A good basis I like to use is a car I used to be involved with in terms of HP/Track times, which is the SN-99 Mustang GT. It was a very pure basis of how RWHP and track times equate.

For example: The 5 Speed Manual 2004 GT made 225 RWHP on the money, which would put it at 260 HP on the money. The Auto version of the same car sucked out an additional 10-15 RWHP, putting them generally at around 210 RWHP. Those cars weighed at around 3200-3300 lbs.

The Manual GT did exactly a 14 Second 1/4 at 100 MPH, those two numbers perfectly aligning with each other as a good power/weight ratio VS track time/MPH ratio (same exact numbers the 535i generally does).

So, if you have a 3200 lb GT making 225 at the wheels with only little drivetrain loss due to being a Manual and doing a 100 MPH trap speed, and then add 700-800 lbs to it (i.e now making it a 535i) then you'd have your trap speed dropped to 92-93 MPH (1 MPH for ever 100 lbs). Therefore, in order for the 535i to recapture that 100 MPH trap speed AND taking into consideration it's an Auto tranny which means it has even more drivetrain loss, you'd need at least 80 more HP, putting it at 340 crank HP (since the GT has 260 crank HP and does the exact same numbers).

Sorry if that's confusing but hope it makes sense in terms of being a look into my crazy head.
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Last edited by K-A; 01-28-2013 at 04:43 PM.
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  #12  
Old 01-31-2013, 10:42 AM
RambleJ RambleJ is offline
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Originally Posted by K-A View Post
From what I've "learned" in Dyno testing, RWD Auto cars generally see 15-20% drivetrain/etc. loss by the time it gets to the rear wheels. 10-12% is very efficient (not sure if that's even possible on an Auto?).

There's a dyno sheet I recently saw that said a "general rule is to divide by .xx(number). When I did that, it came out to roughly 20% drivetrain loss.

Also, if you look at the 535i's consensus trap speed in the 1/4 mile, being around 100 MPH (give or take depending on various tests), and weighing at about 4,000 lbs, it shows that it should pin it right at around 340 HP.

A good basis I like to use is a car I used to be involved with in terms of HP/Track times, which is the SN-99 Mustang GT. It was a very pure basis of how RWHP and track times equate.

For example: The 5 Speed Manual 2004 GT made 225 RWHP on the money, which would put it at 260 HP on the money. The Auto version of the same car sucked out an additional 10-15 RWHP, putting them generally at around 210 RWHP. Those cars weighed at around 3200-3300 lbs.

The Manual GT did exactly a 14 Second 1/4 at 100 MPH, those two numbers perfectly aligning with each other as a good power/weight ratio VS track time/MPH ratio (same exact numbers the 535i generally does).

So, if you have a 3200 lb GT making 225 at the wheels with only little drivetrain loss due to being a Manual and doing a 100 MPH trap speed, and then add 700-800 lbs to it (i.e now making it a 535i) then you'd have your trap speed dropped to 92-93 MPH (1 MPH for ever 100 lbs). Therefore, in order for the 535i to recapture that 100 MPH trap speed AND taking into consideration it's an Auto tranny which means it has even more drivetrain loss, you'd need at least 80 more HP, putting it at 340 crank HP (since the GT has 260 crank HP and does the exact same numbers).

Sorry if that's confusing but hope it makes sense in terms of being a look into my crazy head.
Wow!! That's some hardcore rain man math.. Sorry but our cars are not pushing 340 at the crank.
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  #13  
Old 01-31-2013, 02:32 PM
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Wow!! That's some hardcore rain man math.. Sorry but our cars are not pushing 340 at the crank.
OK Mr. Guru, what then do our cars put out?

A dyno of a 535i put 277 RWHP and 283 RWTQ to the wheels, straight from the showroom floor (you'll see more RWHP add up as the motor breaks in).

You'd be a one of a kind to have less than 15% drivetrain loss in an automatic, more likely 18-20%.

Also, a 4,000 lb car won't be trapping at 100 MPH with only 300 HP at the crank. Look at statistics of other cars with an *actual* 300 HP, in order to trap that high they need to weight considerably less than 4,000 lbs.
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  #14  
Old 01-31-2013, 03:07 PM
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Wow!! That's some hardcore rain man math.. Sorry but our cars are not pushing 340 at the crank.
Rain man was right on. He was very good at math. So basically, by saying it is rain man math, you agree.

But based in your second sentence, I think you meant to say that it was Duh-bya math.

At any rate, K-A is probably right, but perhaps a bit high if you consider the 5er has an 8 speed gearbox. What matters is the total area under the HP curve from start to finish (I'm trying not to use math here). With the 8 speed gearbox, you stay at the top of the curve a bit more so you end up with more total under-the-curve area by the end of the run compared to say, the GT. So there is *some* benefit to the 8 speed gearbox (maybe it's 10-15 HP benefit or something; to know would require using math and I'm many years removed from that ).

But even if you assume a super efficient 15% drive train loss, then 277 RWHP puts it over the 300 @crank HP claimed by BMW (about 326 HP, to be more specific, which would probably be enough to get the vehicle to 100 trap with the 8 speed gearbox).

-Corey

Last edited by cordoor; 01-31-2013 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:18 PM
Emilner Emilner is offline
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Originally Posted by RambleJ View Post
Wow!! That's some hardcore rain man math.. Sorry but our cars are not pushing 340 at the crank.
It should be approx 330hp but 340 is not out of reach for a broken in motor. A fair parasitic loss number should be 16-18%.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by BigDeep1 View Post
I see that the N55HP has 13 more hp and 30 lb/ft torque vs the standard N55 in our F10. The N55hp comes in the 2012 and newer: F12 (6-series), F21 (1-series) & F01 (7-series).

Anyone know exactly how this power is achieved and if we can buy some OEM parts to obtain the extra power and torque of the N55HP?
BMW Performance has a Power kit for the 3- and the X5/X6 N55 that bumps power to the 40i/N55HP level (20hp, 32lbft). Kit is an ECU tune, auxiliary water cooler and an enhanced radiator fan. There is also a kit for the TTV8 (50i, 40HP and 80lbft).

I have no idea of why this Power kit has not been offered for the F10.
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:15 PM
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I have the power up kit in my 2011 335 - although the #s are low as far as increase it completely changed the car. Torque is very low and pulls hard to redline -also seems to build boost much faster. Looking to do Dinan on new 535 when they finally come out with it.
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Old 02-01-2013, 05:39 PM
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I have the power up kit in my 2011 335 - although the #s are low as far as increase it completely changed the car. Torque is very low and pulls hard to redline -also seems to build boost much faster. Looking to do Dinan on new 535 when they finally come out with it.

Bwahahahahaha.

Hope you are ready to wait a long time!
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:29 PM
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so is this better than Dinan Stage 2?
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:59 AM
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I want to know what drivetrain Miami is using o.O I would LOVE to have only 10-12% loss.
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  #21  
Old 02-01-2013, 03:25 PM
Emilner Emilner is offline
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Yet it is widely accepted that BMW underrates their engines. The N63 regularly dynos at 385-390rwhp even though it is rated at 400. There is a reason these cars have such impressive 0-60 and 1/4 mile stats considering how bloated they are....
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:16 AM
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Yet it is widely accepted that BMW underrates their engines. The N63 regularly dynos at 385-390rwhp even though it is rated at 400. There is a reason these cars have such impressive 0-60 and 1/4 mile stats considering how bloated they are....
OK, lets say for a moment that is true, then you see how unreliable dyno's are since the results are all over the map. Just think of the 240-290 discussed here. That tells me that a technician through his adjustments can give you whatever they want.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:31 AM
Emilner Emilner is offline
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Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
OK, lets say for a moment that is true, then you see how unreliable dyno's are since the results are all over the map. Just think of the 240-290 discussed here. That tells me that a technician through his adjustments can give you whatever they want.
I have never seen a 535 dyno at 240 rwhp. It's not a rumor- it is widespread accepted knowledge that BMW (and Audi) underrates their engines. Even the rags mention it from time to time.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:44 AM
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I have never seen a 535 dyno at 240 rwhp. It's not a rumor- it is widespread accepted knowledge that BMW (and Audi) underrates their engines. Even the rags mention it from time to time.
I am not arguing that point as nothing is confirmed either way.

My point is that you see dyno's reflected all over the place for stock engines - this makes dyno's untrustworthy except for before and after mods.
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Old 02-01-2013, 05:13 PM
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Fact of the matter is, look at power-weight. There's NO WAY a 300 HP car will trap at 100 MPH when it weighs 4000+ lbs. It's just not gonna happen, unless you're looking at 5-10% drivetrain loss, which is not gonna happen.

I kept wondering, why would BMW underrate these engines, and my conclusion came when I got an insurance quote. This car is drastically cheaper to insure than even my 268 HP E350. I think that BMW knows if they put a 340 HP rating on an engine in so many mass produced cars sold to regular Joe/Jane's, the insurance reflection of a higher HP rating might cost them more sales than people who would buy for the extra few ponies. BMW may be an enthusiasts brand to us, and in the soul of the brand is still that, IMO, but the mass majority of their dough comes from non-car enthusiasts.
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