How many want AutoTrans in M6?

In the interest of being as accurate as possible... this will be an anonymous poll.

Given the choices... which would you choose?

1.) Manual
2.) SMG
3.) Automatic
4.) CVT (A hybrid automatic... Like in the Audi... which is coming soon to BMW)

Any if they were giving one away.

SMG

manual or smg. i haven't tried smg but it sounds like i might like it. it's a moot question though as an m6 is not my kind of car.

Originally Posted by Matthew330Ci

manual or smg. i haven't tried smg but it sounds like i might like it. it's a moot question though as an m6 is not my kind of car.

Drove 6-SMG M3's over the course of 50 miles or so in test drives before I finally gave up on SMG. I*REALLY* REALLY wanted to love SMG and though I would, but the reality wasn't as good as the fantasy.

Can't speak to other flavors of SMG, but on the M3, my opinion is that SMG is the worst of both worlds. The Hassel of a Manual with the Fun of an automatic. Not for me, but I'm sure some like it just fine.

Personally I'd take an Automatic over an SMG, and a proper stick and pedal over both. Maybe this future execution of the SMG (SMGIII?) will be better.

Originally Posted by Shinkaze

Drove 6-SMG M3's over the course of 50 miles or so in test drives before I finally gave up on SMG. I*REALLY* REALLY wanted to love SMG and though I would, but the reality wasn't as good as the fantasy.

50 miles? It took me about 5000 to get the real hang of SMG. Then I loved it dearly. 50 miles really is not enough. Imagine never having driven a stick before, only auto. Then after 50 miles in a stick you´d be far from happy. Allright SMG is slightly less to learn than full stick, but you still need quite some time to find out how to get the most of it. But then, it really is the best...

Oh and what I REALLY don´t get is people saying SMG is too jerky. It´s only jerky if you drive it like a slush. BMW at least should have left out the auto/cruise-mode, Then there wouldn´t be so much misunderstanding about that box. Once you understand how it works, it´s acutally LESS jerky than either auto or stick. If I were a chauffeur, I´d actually want a car with SMG because you can bring it to a complete standstill without any backlash (difficult with an auto) AND up- and downshift perfectly smooth. I´m pretty darn good at shifting when I have to (and I currently have to since my SMG-car was stolen and the rental is stick, as will be the E90 I have on order since SMG is not available), but in everyday driving, the pleasure of SMG was mostly the effortless smoothness in my driving I could get from it. AND the ultra fast shifts when I was pushing it.

You´ve really gotta give SMG some credit. And mostly some time and effort. You gotta learn how to drive it, then it´s the second best tranny out there (the best is a double-clutch automated box a la DSG)

I believe at the heart of this discussion lies a specialty of the M6:
It really doesn´t fit into any current definition.
It´s too big and (despite all the CF) too heavy to qualify as a sports car or a track car. And yet, it certainly is not luxury cruiser either, it´s way to nervous for that. Fire it up just once and hear the engine at idle and you´ll know, having that car cruise at a steady pace is like using a sherman tank for mowing the lawn.
It´s an M6 and is therefore either the perfect all-round two door or unsatisfactory for all tasks, depending how you look at it.

And beeing bought by the wrong people for the wrong reasons is something the M6 will share with may very expensive sports cars. How many Ferrari V12 are being driven in anger? How many Bugatti Veyron will be driven at all? Unfortunately the money for the big engines usually only arrives after the ability to use them has withered.

Btw. I really don´t get the beef with Alex´s comments. I find nothing offending or annoying in them. Just a stated opinion. And this is not just one Kraut siding with another. Take a look at other posts from Alex in other threads and you´ll find him always kind, polite, helpfull and knowledgable. As good a moderator as they come and certainly entitled to an opinion as everyone else.

Originally Posted by tierfreund

Btw. I really don´t get the beef with Alex´s comments.

^^^^^

I really don't care about this discussion or any of the arguments... No true slushboxes in M cars and SMG is not a slushbox. Those two statements are axiomatic Done.

But barking at AlexB for reasons that I fail to see... Listen to the man and learn from him, you wee little man.

Originally Posted by tierfreund

50 miles? It took me about 5000 to get the real hang of SMG. Then I loved it dearly. 50 miles really is not enough. Imagine never having driven a stick before, only auto. Then after 50 miles in a stick you´d be far from happy. Allright SMG is slightly less to learn than full stick, but you still need quite some time to find out how to get the most of it. But then, it really is the best...

Maybe I'm just old and cranky, but if it takes me 5000 miles to learn to enjoy a car I'll go look at another brand.

You´ve really gotta give SMG some credit. And mostly some time and effort. You gotta learn how to drive it, then it´s the second best tranny out there (the best is a double-clutch automated box a la DSG)

HAve to admit the DSG looks promising, haven't driven one yet though.

I believe at the heart of this discussion lies a specialty of the M6:

It really doesn´t fit into any current definition.
It´s too big and (despite all the CF) too heavy to qualify as a sports car or a track car. And yet, it certainly is not luxury cruiser either, it´s way to nervous for that. Fire it up just once and hear the engine at idle and you´ll know, having that car cruise at a steady pace is like using a sherman tank for mowing the lawn.
It´s an M6 and is therefore either the perfect all-round two door or unsatisfactory for all tasks, depending how you look at it.

And beeing bought by the wrong people for the wrong reasons is something the M6 will share with may very expensive sports cars. How many Ferrari V12 are being driven in anger? How many Bugatti Veyron will be driven at all? Unfortunately the money for the big engines usually only arrives after the ability to use them has withered.

Btw. I really don´t get the beef with Alex´s comments. I find nothing offending or annoying in them. Just a stated opinion. And this is not just one Kraut siding with another. Take a look at other posts from Alex in other threads and you´ll find him always kind, polite, helpfull and knowledgable. As good a moderator as they come and certainly entitled to an opinion as everyone else.

BMW has been very effective in protecting their brand identity, so the M6 is the answer to the question, what would a BMW Grand Touring coupe be like? So think GT cars like the Mercedes CL55, Jaguar XKR, etc etc. Rather than Performance Cars liek the 911, F430, Z06, etc etc. However the performance is so good on the M6, it probably will perform like the later category, rather than the former.

The E39 M5 was the same way, it was a Luxury Sedan that performed like a Sports Car, and in doing so created a nice little niche for itself. I'm sure BMW hopes for the same with the M6.

Originally Posted by SpeedFreak!

In the interest of being as accurate as possible... this will be an anonymous poll.

Given the choices... which would you choose?

1.) Manual
2.) SMG
3.) Automatic
4.) CVT (A hybrid automatic... Like in the Audi... which is coming soon to BMW)

First off, if anyone is interested in how this poll came to be, and the history and discussion behind this poll, check out the Bimmerfest M6 site for all of the fun and excitement!?

I am sort of surprised that Speed would even bother with this. Clearly this poll will not achieve anything except that we're all having a little fun doing it. Remember how this started. I was intrigued by several posts wanting a manual in the M6 here in the U.S. and my stance was that I would rather have an automatic offered in the new M6 over a manual offering or at least in addition to it. My thinking was that a steptronic actually befits this luxury GT cruiser better than a manual. I also went on to say that I felt that there is a silent majority (not represented on this site, by definition) that might want it as well. This poll, while fun, does not, and can not reach the pool of potential buyers that I am referring to. I think most of us can understand that.

When this poll is completed it will be very much in favor of a manual or SMG. Let's face it, this is a group of BMW lovers, old timers, traditionists, etc. who are steeped in the BMW lore and traditions (a good thing, I learned a lot on this site), and they clearly see no need for a Step in the New M6.

So, Speed, thanks for trying. If you feel the (predictable) results of this poll support the position that a Steptronic is absolutely not wanted, by ALL potential M6 buyers, as an optional transmission offering on the new M6, more power to ya my friend.

Max

In case anyone is wondering, the single vote for the Steptronic (at this time) was me.... for ****z and giggles, I voted

Originally Posted by MaxTimeOff

First off, if anyone is interested in how this poll came to be, and the history and discussion behind this poll, check out the Bimmerfest M6 site for all of the fun and excitement!?

I am sort of surprised that Speed would even bother with this. Clearly this poll will not achieve anything except that we're all having a little fun doing it. Remember how this started. I was intrigued by several posts wanting a manual in the M6 here in the U.S. and my stance was that I would rather have an automatic offered in the new M6 over a manual offering or at least in addition to it. My thinking was that a steptronic actually befits this luxury GT cruiser better than a manual. I also went on to say that I felt that there is a silent majority (not represented on this site, by definition) that might want it as well. This poll, while fun, does not, and can not reach the pool of potential buyers that I am referring to. I think most of us can understand that.

When this poll is completed it will be very much in favor of a manual or SMG. Let's face it, this is a group of BMW lovers, old timers, traditionists, etc. who are steeped in the BMW lore and traditions (a good thing, I learned a lot on this site), and they clearly see no need for a Step in the New M6.

So, Speed, thanks for trying. If you feel the (predictable) results of this poll support the position that a Steptronic is absolutely not wanted, by ALL potential M6 buyers, as an optional transmission offering on the new M6, more power to ya my friend.

Max

In case anyone is wondering, the single vote for the Steptronic (at this time) was me.... for ****z and giggles, I voted

Nah, Max... I did the poll 'cause I like ya and was curious to see what would happen.... even though I think your crazy . Of course I say that with all the love, man... I thought the issue was a good one.
I do believe, however, that you are wrong regarding the unusual bias of people on this sight. Of all the BMW sights... bimmerfest is the truest representation of most BMW people I know across the board. I deal with all types of BMW buyers in day to day life selling them... and have read for years the post and positions on this board. They seem like a really great match to me. Of course... people would need to vote and with only a fraction of the members voting... your right about one thing... the poll is just for fun, and who knows how accurate it really is. I said this on the other thread... In the 2 years I have been dealing with people who want the M6... you are the first to ask for an auto. But dude, that's cool. I still like ya and I still think your crazy... at the same time... I respect both you and your opinion.

Speed,

That's cool, I sincerely appreciate your comments.

Max

P.S I really think the Cab wagon M6 with a dash-button-shift tranny would be a huge hit! I really think blah blah blah......Just kidding!!

Originally Posted by MaxTimeOff

First off, if anyone is interested in how this poll came to be, and the history and discussion behind this poll, check out the Bimmerfest M6 site for all of the fun and excitement!?

I am sort of surprised that Speed would even bother with this. Clearly this poll will not achieve anything except that we're all having a little fun doing it. Remember how this started. I was intrigued by several posts wanting a manual in the M6 here in the U.S. and my stance was that I would rather have an automatic offered in the new M6 over a manual offering or at least in addition to it. My thinking was that a steptronic actually befits this luxury GT cruiser better than a manual. I also went on to say that I felt that there is a silent majority (not represented on this site, by definition) that might want it as well. This poll, while fun, does not, and can not reach the pool of potential buyers that I am referring to. I think most of us can understand that.

When this poll is completed it will be very much in favor of a manual or SMG. Let's face it, this is a group of BMW lovers, old timers, traditionists, etc. who are steeped in the BMW lore and traditions (a good thing, I learned a lot on this site), and they clearly see no need for a Step in the New M6.

So, Speed, thanks for trying. If you feel the (predictable) results of this poll support the position that a Steptronic is absolutely not wanted, by ALL potential M6 buyers, as an optional transmission offering on the new M6, more power to ya my friend.

Max

In case anyone is wondering, the single vote for the Steptronic (at this time) was me.... for ****z and giggles, I voted

"luxury GT cruiser" ? An M6?

645 is a luxury cruiser and available with step

An M6 is a 8200rpm carbonfiber roof, get out of my way, high-strung sports machine. Don´t be fooled by the relatively harmless apperance.

That baby is one serious machine.

It even has bumper mounts made out of carbon fibre (not even visible, so certainly not for show) just to bring weight down and move the center of mass inwards.

Drive one and you´ll see: Manual might be argued for (if not by me) but step would be absurd.

M = Motorsport
Automatics have no place in motorsport.

If you want an automatic buy a Corvette. This is a performance Car!

Originally Posted by Bill Dance

M = Motorsport
Automatics have no place in motorsport.

Yeah, and get rid of the power steering too!

Originally Posted by jetstream23

Yeah, and get rid of the power steering too!

If you think that's bad, try to imagine a "motorsports" car with I-Drive.

Originally Posted by tierfreund

"luxury GT cruiser" ? An M6?

645 is a luxury cruiser and available with step

An M6 is a 8200rpm carbonfiber roof, get out of my way, high-strung sports machine. Don´t be fooled by the relatively harmless apperance.

That baby is one serious machine.

It even has bumper mounts made out of carbon fibre (not even visible, so certainly not for show) just to bring weight down and move the center of mass inwards.

Drive one and you´ll see: Manual might be argued for (if not by me) but step would be absurd.

Here in the States, good or bad, the M6 will mostly be used as a "luxury cruiser" it will see very little track time.

Please stop talking like this !!!... serious machine, 8200 RPM, use of carbon fiber, high strung machine!!! Here in the States we have to wait quite a bit little longer and all of superlatives tossed out by you makes the wait that much more difficult

Max

"Merc makes the very capable SL[500|600|55AMG|65AMG] (with slushbox _only_) for the lazy types with $90 large burning holes in their pockets. BMW makes the 645ci for those same folks."

This sort of response always fascinates me, and is sadly typically when it comes to auto forums. Heck, I even got the same flavor of response from a board moderator who's primary job should be to see that rules are followed and to foster and promote open discussion.

Why is that when someone prefers something different they are "lazy" or are referred to in some other derogatory tone, like maybe I should buy a Vette (now that's hitting below the belt )?

The fact is, maybe someone wants the power/handling/prestige of the M6 but works 12 hours a day and on occasion wants to take the M6 to work and maybe just doesn't feel like shifting in commute traffic! Yea yea I know, SMG in auto mode may fit the bill, but that's not the point here. It's not like you're required to have in your posession a flame retardant suite, Sparco gloves and shoes, and a helmut before you are allowed to buy an M6!

Just buy the vette. Maybe chevy will make the z06 in auto so you can be sure to have the most "prestigous" model without the hassle.

Originally Posted by MaxTimeOff

Heck, I even got the same flavor of response from a board moderator who's primary job should be to see that rules are followed and to foster and promote open discussion.

Job? What job? I'm a member in the first place, then forum moderator. There's no guideline that moderators can't participate in discussions.

So keep me out of your auto tranmission fetish.

Carry on.

Originally Posted by MaxTimeOff

Here in the States, good or bad, the M6 will mostly be used as a "luxury cruiser" it will see very little track time.


Max

MISused you mean...

Originally Posted by tierfreund

"luxury GT cruiser" ? An M6?

645 is a luxury cruiser and available with step

An M6 is a 8200rpm carbonfiber roof, get out of my way, high-strung sports machine. Don´t be fooled by the relatively harmless apperance.

That baby is one serious machine.

It even has bumper mounts made out of carbon fibre (not even visible, so certainly not for show) just to bring weight down and move the center of mass inwards.

Drive one and you´ll see: Manual might be argued for (if not by me) but step would be absurd.

To be a sport machine, a car will have to have brakes that actually work.

M6 has ****e for brakes. GImme a break, for the $$ that they are charging, why can't they put a monobloque 6 pot Brembo's up front, and 4 pot Brembo's in the back?

Originally Posted by Stuka

To be a sport machine, a car will have to have brakes that actually work.

M6 has ****e for brakes. GImme a break, for the $$ that they are charging, why can't they put a monobloque 6 pot Brembo's up front, and 4 pot Brembo's in the back?

Not saying that 6 pot Brembo's wouldn't be nice, but can we wait till the car is beaten around the track first? I haven't seen anything bad being said about the brakes yet, maybe they made some improvements

Originally Posted by Stuka

To be a sport machine, a car will have to have brakes that actually work.

M6 has ****e for brakes. GImme a break, for the $$ that they are charging, why can't they put a monobloque 6 pot Brembo's up front, and 4 pot Brembo's in the back?

Here is what a few of the car rags had to say about the M6's braking ability:

Autocar: “Effective, just not quite up to the rest of the package”

Auto Express: “The brakes make up the final element in the M6's impressive armoury. The uprated discs and calipers provide brutal stopping power, and make the BMW a complete driver's car.”

Motoring Telegraph: “The pedal might get a bit softer after a few hard circuit laps, but stopping power doesn't change significantly and the cross-drilled compound discs are pretty much beyond criticism on the road.”

The Car Connection: "High-performance (huge) brakes with double-piston calipers are carried over from the motorsport arena and provide excellent stopping power."

Originally Posted by Stuka

To be a sport machine, a car will have to have brakes that actually work.

M6 has ****e for brakes. GImme a break, for the $$ that they are charging, why can't they put a monobloque 6 pot Brembo's up front, and 4 pot Brembo's in the back?

Man I hope you posted this BEFORE I 'splained to you about the differences between the sliding caliper design and the multipot fixed caliper designs of Porsche and Brembo.

It doesn't matter how many f**king pistons you have, or how your caliper is designed. It is all about effective cooling and heat distribution of the brake system. The fixed caliper, 4-6 pot systems in Porsches designed by Brembo, are effective in spreading out the heat evenly through multiple caliper pistons and using a giant fixed caliper as a heat sink. If you look at the caliper, you can see only about 40% of that massive block is dedicated to the calipers, while the remaining 60% is DEAD WEIGHT to distribute heat.

There's another way to distribute heat. Build a massive rotor. Bigger rotor has several advantages. It's a rotating mass, therefore with proper venting it will dissipate heat quickly. Bigger rotors can also accomodate larger brake pads with large, single pistons, thus allowing larger sweep area and more brake torque. You can effectively build a system with large rotors that will brake and dissipate heat just as effectively as a mulit-piston fixed caliper system for a lot less. The disadvantage, of course, is using the rotor as a heat sink will shorten the life of the rotor and pad, where as the fixed caliper multi-pot will extend rotor and pad life because some of the heat is dissipated through the caliper AND the multipot caliper distribute the brake force evenly.

The key here, of course, is COOLING. You can run a 8 piston caliper on a 15" rotor, if you can not effectively pipe cool air to the brake system, it'll fade QUICKER than a 12" rotor on a single pot caliper with a nice cooling duct attached. You put that complicated cooling system on the 996 Turbo on say, the M5, it'll stop just as effectively time after time.

Originally Posted by The HACK

Man I hope you posted this BEFORE I 'splained to you about the differences between the sliding caliper design and the multipot fixed caliper designs of Porsche and Brembo.

It doesn't matter how many f**king pistons you have, or how your caliper is designed. It is all about effective cooling and heat distribution of the brake system. The fixed caliper, 4-6 pot systems in Porsches designed by Brembo, are effective in spreading out the heat evenly through multiple caliper pistons and using a giant fixed caliper as a heat sink. If you look at the caliper, you can see only about 40% of that massive block is dedicated to the calipers, while the remaining 60% is DEAD WEIGHT to distribute heat.

There's another way to distribute heat. Build a massive rotor. Bigger rotor has several advantages. It's a rotating mass, therefore with proper venting it will dissipate heat quickly. Bigger rotors can also accomodate larger brake pads with large, single pistons, thus allowing larger sweep area and more brake torque. You can effectively build a system with large rotors that will brake and dissipate heat just as effectively as a mulit-piston fixed caliper system for a lot less. The disadvantage, of course, is using the rotor as a heat sink will shorten the life of the rotor and pad, where as the fixed caliper multi-pot will extend rotor and pad life because some of the heat is dissipated through the caliper AND the multipot caliper distribute the brake force evenly.

The key here, of course, is COOLING. You can run a 8 piston caliper on a 15" rotor, if you can not effectively pipe cool air to the brake system, it'll fade QUICKER than a 12" rotor on a single pot caliper with a nice cooling duct attached. You put that complicated cooling system on the 996 Turbo on say, the M5, it'll stop just as effectively time after time.

To a question why M cars have small and 'crappy' brakes, the M-GmbH manager Mr Bruhnke explained it exactly like you did above.