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Old 12-05-2017, 10:00 PM
scorleo scorleo is offline
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wth! Transmission bell bolt missing and few seem loose

While trying to flush the coolant and refill new liquid I had to remove the splash guard. I could see oil stains before when I had starting problem a month ago, finally got to see what's going on there...

Please take a look at the picture and let me know which size bolt I need to get,
linky that shows more info --> https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ission/PEUCuu9

First pictures shows the missing bolt but I don't know if the missing one is M10X30 or M10x85.

Thanks!
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  #2  
Old 12-05-2017, 10:28 PM
aleks001 aleks001 is offline
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The leak is probably from the oil pan gasket. You can see it starts way above that bolt and that is the common place it starts to leak.

I also can't remeber if that whole is meant to be empty, when I did the pan I don't remember that bolt being there that whole might meant to be empty. There is probably a bolt on the other side of that whole.

Bad news is the oil pan gasket is a massive pain in the ass.

Just checked some pictures online that is meant to empty. Like i said if there is a bolt it will be on the other side.

Last edited by aleks001; 12-05-2017 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:03 AM
scorleo scorleo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aleks001 View Post
The leak is probably from the oil pan gasket. You can see it starts way above that bolt and that is the common place it starts to leak.

I also can't remeber if that whole is meant to be empty, when I did the pan I don't remember that bolt being there that whole might meant to be empty. There is probably a bolt on the other side of that whole.

Bad news is the oil pan gasket is a massive pain in the ass.

Just checked some pictures online that is meant to empty. Like i said if there is a bolt it will be on the other side.
Thank you! I agree with you on both, hole length is only 7 mm even though it's threaded one, so I assume it's non functional.

I also agree on your assessment, pan gasket. As I spent more time down assessing the leak it does appear prominent on rear side of the pan. Another reason I strongly agree on the assessment is that I already identified issues with three other gaskets/seal, valve cover gasket, eccentric sensor seal and oil filter housing gasket, all of them leaking.

I'm surmising that the BMW gaskets and seals are not durable and ironically they are all breaking at the same time precisely in 6 years.
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Old 12-06-2017, 08:00 AM
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CALWATERBOY DUE CALWATERBOY DUE is offline
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Pre-owned?
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Old 12-06-2017, 08:35 AM
scorleo scorleo is offline
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Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY DUE View Post
.

Pre-owned?
Nope, first owner.
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Old 12-06-2017, 12:33 PM
scorleo scorleo is offline
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Originally Posted by aleks001 View Post
The leak is probably from the oil pan gasket. You can see it starts way above that bolt and that is the common place it starts to leak.

I also can't remeber if that whole is meant to be empty, when I did the pan I don't remember that bolt being there that whole might meant to be empty. There is probably a bolt on the other side of that whole.

Bad news is the oil pan gasket is a massive pain in the ass.

Just checked some pictures online that is meant to empty. Like i said if there is a bolt it will be on the other side.
Hi - When you did the pan work, did you have to remove the engine? Did you come across reference content that I can check? I want to see if this is within my skill level for dyi.

Thanks!
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:10 PM
aleks001 aleks001 is offline
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Originally Posted by scorleo View Post
Hi - When you did the pan work, did you have to remove the engine? Did you come across reference content that I can check? I want to see if this is within my skill level for dyi.

Thanks!
I don't know why people get hung up on first owner or pre-owned. Why even ask ? Jesus guys. It's a pan gasket what difference does it make if the car has had 1 owner or a 100.

BMW gaskets are ****, they have been **** since the time they have been building cars and they are **** to this today. Even the new F30's are now starting to leak all over the place. BMW can't seal an engine to save their lives.

There are plenty of threads around on doing this work. It's not hard, just super fiddly. The basic steps are
1. Support the engine with an engine support bar or even better if you have an engine hoist. Most engine support bars can't hold a BMW engine high enough because of the way it sits in the engine bay.
2. Loosen the subframe bolts and some power steering bolts and drop the subframe a couple of inches. The official document calls for the removal of the subframe. Looking back now I wish I went down this route. It's not that hard to drop the whole thing, I was just a little worried about being able to lift it back up, but next time I'm definitely dropping it.
3. Undo the pan and a connector and remove the pan.
4. install gaskets bla bla

Good DIY:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1180020

Read through the whole post many people throught it have found better ways to do certain parts.

I also have a suspicion that the gaskets in these cars are actually not the problem but the aluminium bolts end up letting go. When I removed the VCG and Oil pan gasket I couldn't see anything wrong with them as they are metal. If you want you can try just ordering a set of new bolts. The only problem with this is that if it doesn't work you have to order new bolts again because they are one time use, but it would be great if somoene can test this theory out, might be worth the $26 gamble for the internet FCP euro has them from REIN for that much.

Last edited by aleks001; 12-06-2017 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:56 PM
scorleo scorleo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aleks001 View Post
I don't know why people get hung up on first owner or pre-owned. Why even ask ? Jesus guys. It's a pan gasket what difference does it make if the car has had 1 owner or a 100.

BMW gaskets are ****, they have been **** since the time they have been building cars and they are **** to this today. Even the new F30's are now starting to leak all over the place. BMW can't seal an engine to save their lives.

There are plenty of threads around on doing this work. It's not hard, just super fiddly. The basic steps are
1. Support the engine with an engine support bar or even better if you have an engine hoist. Most engine support bars can't hold a BMW engine high enough because of the way it sits in the engine bay.
2. Loosen the subframe bolts and some power steering bolts and drop the subframe a couple of inches. The official document calls for the removal of the subframe. Looking back now I wish I went down this route. It's not that hard to drop the whole thing, I was just a little worried about being able to lift it back up, but next time I'm definitely dropping it.
3. Undo the pan and a connector and remove the pan.
4. install gaskets bla bla

Good DIY:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1180020

Read through the whole post many people throught it have found better ways to do certain parts.

I also have a suspicion that the gaskets in these cars are actually not the problem but the aluminium bolts end up letting go. When I removed the VCG and Oil pan gasket I couldn't see anything wrong with them as they are metal. If you want you can try just ordering a set of new bolts. The only problem with this is that if it doesn't work you have to order new bolts again because they are one time use, but it would be great if somoene can test this theory out, might be worth the $26 gamble for the internet FCP euro has them from REIN for that much.
Thanks Aleks for the link, I went through the first page and will read the rest before I get ready to work on it, looks PIA but I think it's doable.

I think it's a great idea to experiment a bit. I just ordered all the gaskets for top portion of the engine from FCP Euro but will call them tomorrow morning to include the bolts for the pan/sump. If it works then that'll save a ton of trouble and effort.
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Old 12-06-2017, 05:38 PM
aleks001 aleks001 is offline
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Originally Posted by scorleo View Post
Thanks Aleks for the link, I went through the first page and will read the rest before I get ready to work on it, looks PIA but I think it's doable.

I think it's a great idea to experiment a bit. I just ordered all the gaskets for top portion of the engine from FCP Euro but will call them tomorrow morning to include the bolts for the pan/sump. If it works then that'll save a ton of trouble and effort.
If you have the silver top engine not the black one, this also has a metal gasket. I would give new bolts a go first there as well. Same thing when i did mine, couldn't see anything wrong with the valve cover or pan gasket itself. I did notice a bunch of the bolts were loose when taking them off so I was pretty sure it just needed new bolts, but i was already well onto my way so i did the whole thing next time im doing bolts first to test. Let us know how you go it's worth a $20 risk IMO.
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Old 12-06-2017, 06:31 PM
scorleo scorleo is offline
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Originally Posted by aleks001 View Post
If you have the silver top engine not the black one, this also has a metal gasket. I would give new bolts a go first there as well. Same thing when i did mine, couldn't see anything wrong with the valve cover or pan gasket itself. I did notice a bunch of the bolts were loose when taking them off so I was pretty sure it just needed new bolts, but i was already well onto my way so i did the whole thing next time im doing bolts first to test. Let us know how you go it's worth a $20 risk IMO.
I have N51 SULEV, black cover on engine top.

BMW dealer near my place has pan bolts for $28/set, I'll pick it up from them tomorrow and experiment in the morning.
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Old 12-06-2017, 08:50 PM
aleks001 aleks001 is offline
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Originally Posted by scorleo View Post
I have N51 SULEV, black cover on engine top.

BMW dealer near my place has pan bolts for $28/set, I'll pick it up from them tomorrow and experiment in the morning.
You might not be able to replace all the bolts, just give it your best go. Make sure you look up the torque specs they need to be to a very specific tightness and angle.
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:43 AM
scorleo scorleo is offline
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Originally Posted by aleks001 View Post
You might not be able to replace all the bolts, just give it your best go. Make sure you look up the torque specs they need to be to a very specific tightness and angle.
Agreed. I only plan to replace bolts that are in the rear and where oil leak is prominent, the front half of the pan has no signs of leakage and I don't understand why and this was the reason I told the bolts are loose. Most bolts of the right side seem accessible, I may have some difficulty with left side bolts.
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Old 12-08-2017, 08:22 PM
scorleo scorleo is offline
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Originally Posted by aleks001 View Post
You might not be able to replace all the bolts, just give it your best go. Make sure you look up the torque specs they need to be to a very specific tightness and angle.
Finally got to it this evening. I didn't have torque angle gauge so it got pushed out from last night to this evening.

Here's what I found, 92 mm bolt, first from center to right at bottom at transmission and sump joint was not even tight (see pic). I took a wrench and rotated 90 deg with no effort and that's where most of the oil leak was visible, bolt head was floating in oil. Removed and replaced that bolt with new one and that's the only bolt I replaced to experiment.

The core issue now is that my torque wrench (new one) is not working properly so I feel I may have over tightened that bolt, I got no clicks @ 6 ft/lb no matter how many times I tried to turn the bolt to tighten. I was extremely careful towards the end and applied force very gently but the bolt kept rotating. I'll need to replace the wrench tomorrow and try it again or possibly put a new bolt.

There's one more 28 mm to the far right that's connected to some sort of plate (hidden in the pic), that one seemed loose as well, so I just tightened it a bit with a regular wrench until I get a new torque wrench.

Will keep the fingers crossed and hope the bolt replacement will do the trick.
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Old 12-08-2017, 11:10 PM
aleks001 aleks001 is offline
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Originally Posted by scorleo View Post
Finally got to it this evening. I didn't have torque angle gauge so it got pushed out from last night to this evening.

Here's what I found, 92 mm bolt, first from center to right at bottom at transmission and sump joint was not even tight (see pic). I took a wrench and rotated 90 deg with no effort and that's where most of the oil leak was visible, bolt head was floating in oil. Removed and replaced that bolt with new one and that's the only bolt I replaced to experiment.

The core issue now is that my torque wrench (new one) is not working properly so I feel I may have over tightened that bolt, I got no clicks @ 6 ft/lb no matter how many times I tried to turn the bolt to tighten. I was extremely careful towards the end and applied force very gently but the bolt kept rotating. I'll need to replace the wrench tomorrow and try it again or possibly put a new bolt.

There's one more 28 mm to the far right that's connected to some sort of plate (hidden in the pic), that one seemed loose as well, so I just tightened it a bit with a regular wrench until I get a new torque wrench.

Will keep the fingers crossed and hope the bolt replacement will do the trick.
good luck buddy. Very risky with crap torque wrench and no angle meter. Worse case scenario u snap one and your doing the pan anyway :P

For small bolts you need to find the smallest torque wrench available something that only goes up to about 30 nm
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Old 12-11-2017, 06:51 PM
scorleo scorleo is offline
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bad news...

After replacing the bolt I still see the drip between gear housing bell and engine sump. Further reading suggest the issue is caused due to worn torque converter seal: red oil drips at the joint . I believe the previous bolt got loose due to presence of oil in that area.

Here's more info --> https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...209/1VnXJgsePk

This job requires transmission to be removed to replace the seal .
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Old 12-11-2017, 07:15 PM
aleks001 aleks001 is offline
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Originally Posted by scorleo View Post
After replacing the bolt I still see the drip between gear housing bell and engine sump. Further reading suggest the issue is caused due to worn torque converter seal: red oil drips at the joint . I believe the previous bolt got loose due to presence of oil in that area.

Here's more info --> https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...209/1VnXJgsePk

This job requires transmission to be removed to replace the seal .
Start with the pan. It leaks in a really weird way. Mine looked just like yours when it was leaking and replacing the pan gasket fixed it.

EDIT:
Did you say you see red oil ? Oh crap that will be transmission then. I'm assuming you have the GM transmission then it would explain the red oil, the ZF one is an amber/clear colour.

Don't panic too much, just start getting quotes from some mechanics, the transmission isn't that hard to drop when you have a proper hoist.

Last edited by aleks001; 12-11-2017 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 12-11-2017, 07:34 PM
scorleo scorleo is offline
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Originally Posted by aleks001 View Post
Start with the pan. It leaks in a really weird way. Mine looked just like yours when it was leaking and replacing the pan gasket fixed it.

EDIT:
Did you say you see red oil ? Oh crap that will be transmission then. I'm assuming you have the GM transmission then it would explain the red oil, the ZF one is an amber/clear colour.

Don't panic too much, just start getting quotes from some mechanics, the transmission isn't that hard to drop when you have a proper hoist.
I'll call few service shops around, this will be PIB job and I can't keep spending too much time on car repairs. In any case, I'll assess the numbers and go from there.

Hard to believe things are starting to fall apart at ~65k miles. Shame on BMW for installing non durable parts. My Acura TL that I traded in to buy E93 car was more durable than this one.
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Old 12-11-2017, 10:29 PM
aleks001 aleks001 is offline
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Originally Posted by scorleo View Post
I'll call few service shops around, this will be PIB job and I can't keep spending too much time on car repairs. In any case, I'll assess the numbers and go from there.

Hard to believe things are starting to fall apart at ~65k miles. Shame on BMW for installing non durable parts. My Acura TL that I traded in to buy E93 car was more durable than this one.
In this case I'd consider dumping it. It's only going to get worse. My car cost me a fortune between 60-110Miles. It seems to be the trouble spot for these.

I agree it is completely ridiculous, I've never had a car that needed some much attention and I've had some **** cars, but this takes the cake.
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