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  #26  
Old 06-19-2005, 09:02 AM
BigDog008 BigDog008 is offline
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I only went to JMK BMW... I got an Orient Blue 2004 E46 from them in Dec 2003 for a very good price and came in with the expectation that they will match the deal or do better. My salesman at that time was Bill Nyer, but apparently he moved to California to work in the movie industry


I did call Morristown BMW, they told me they'd give me $1000 off MSRP so that would have equated to $33,445 plus tax and the same fees.... and Flemington BMW told me that they're having a tent sale and would not be able to discuss my possible purchase until Monday


oh ya, I did goto Open Road BMW when I was purchasing my E46, but they started playing games with the price...

Overall I'd say JMK was the most pleasent, then Morristown.... atleast Morristown was polite and tried to work a bit on the price


hehehe sorry about rambling

Last edited by BigDog008; 06-19-2005 at 09:06 AM.
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  #27  
Old 06-19-2005, 09:22 AM
jcl10 jcl10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ihavedrivenanm1
It's all just a big game down here.

I doubt any consumer, no matter how savvy, really knows what a dealer actually pays, net, net, net, for a given car.

While "invoice" is supposed to be the price a dealer pays you also have to take into consideration that the manufacturer gives the dealer co-op advertising money, financing incentives, lot allowances for carrying cars, to-dealer rebates, and end-of-quarter/year give backs.

Rest assured that no dealer is going to let a car off of his or her lot without making some type of profit.

As for the American consumer it is simply a game to see how little the individual buyer can leave on the dealers table. There is no set process, it is truly a free-for-all and just about anything goes.
Agree with all of the above. A couple more comments on the CDN pricing practices:
- I haven't seen a BMW dealer in Canada negotiating from invoice, it is always from MSRP. There may be exceptions, but generally, dealers here are selling the quality of the experience, not the sticker price. Lots of focus on after-sales, etc.
- That MSRP is not comparable to the US MSRP, not only to currency variations, but also due to different options, different items in the base build, etc
- In addition to all of the rebates mentioned above, CDN BMW dealers are also compensated based on customer satisfaction scores. We could argue about whether those scores increase the rebates for good scores, or simply withhold rebates for low scores, but they do count. BMW Canada has been using this to improve the service focus of the dealer network. It appears to be working, from years of watching.
- Typically, $1000 off MSRP is a reasonable deal here, at least with the dealers in my region. Second and third purchases, especially close together, improve that, but it is nothing like the US situation where purchasers are regularly discussing invoice prices.
- The situation here is very dependent on which brand is under discussion. Toyota instituted a national one price policy some years back, and it was challenged in the courts. (it was a little like the US Saturn policy) BMW doesn't have a formal policy out there, they just don't discuss invoice. Same with some other high end brands. Ford and GM will be glad to show you the invoice themselves, and work up from there. Other manufacturers are all over the map.
- With all of them, the trade is the variable, and if those who don't deal on price, want to deal, that is where it will happen.

As a comment from someone who has purchased in both systems, I rather like the current BMW Canada practice. The prices are published. The variable is between 1000 and 2000 off. There is no lost sleep over 'did I get the best deal'. If I want a BMW, this is the way it is. If I want to negotiate price, I can buy used, or buy a different brand. I wish more manufacturers worked this way, I don't enjoy the long negotiation and silly games that go on so often. Of course, lots of individuals do want to go through the negotiation process.
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  #28  
Old 06-19-2005, 11:21 AM
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RichReg RichReg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDog008
I only went to JMK BMW... I got an Orient Blue 2004 E46 from them in Dec 2003 for a very good price and came in with the expectation that they will match the deal or do better. My salesman at that time was Bill Nyer, but apparently he moved to California to work in the movie industry


I did call Morristown BMW, they told me they'd give me $1000 off MSRP so that would have equated to $33,445 plus tax and the same fees.... and Flemington BMW told me that they're having a tent sale and would not be able to discuss my possible purchase until Monday


oh ya, I did goto Open Road BMW when I was purchasing my E46, but they started playing games with the price...

Overall I'd say JMK was the most pleasent, then Morristown.... atleast Morristown was polite and tried to work a bit on the price


hehehe sorry about rambling
Open Road....YUCHHH! What a bunch of con-artists.

After I told the sales manager @ Open-Road that the reason I wasn't buying from him was because of price, you know what he says about the other dealership?

"Shame on them!. I don't even want to know their name. They're diluting/demeaning the BMW brand. European Delivery cars are already discounted." Blah...blah...blah.....
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  #29  
Old 06-19-2005, 05:17 PM
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spaceman spaceman is offline
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Sounds like purchasing a car in America is very similar to Canada. Invoice prices are readily available at Consumerguides.com and Edmunds.com . The reason you calculate from invoice pricing is to determine the "cost" price of how much each dealer pays. Once you figure that out, you simply add a dealer profit on top of that. You can also easily convert invoice +$X into MSRP -$X, its just a matter of doing some simple math. (eg. given below)

Its best to go in with invoice +$X because 1) You are informed of the dealer's cost price. 2) it eliminates the possibility of dealers giving you jedi mind tricks. Most dealers here were offering $500 to $1000 minus MSRP when I was shopping for a 2006 E90. It sounds good because pyschologically you are hearing : I'm getting a break of $$ paying less. But the thing is if you calculate their base invoice price, you'll realise that you are paying them way lot more as anything above invoice translates to dealer profit.

And the tricky thing is, invoice price may NOT be the cost for dealers. You have to find out if there are any factory rebates/ dealer incentives from manufacturers for that particular model. Right now, for the 2006 E90, Invoice price is true dealer cost. But for the brand new 2005 325i, there's an incentive/ rebate right now for dealers to move this car. I believe its around $2k (more $$ for 2005 330) . So when a dealer tries to sell you the 2005 new 325, you have to factor in the invoice, then minus that sum from the $2k(Incentive). That will be the TRUE dealer cost. In this case, you should get a good deal paying $X BELOW invoice. If you are not aware of this and dealer offers $1500 below MSRP, you think you are getting the bargain of the month but the fact is you are still paying too much!

Similar to Canada, BMW USA forgo the 2% holdbacks couple of years ago and went with the CSI index, or Customer Satisfaction Scores. This is a way BMW the manufacturer is rewarding each dealer for selling their cars and getting good scores on their CSI. Basically, if dealers get great scores on their CSI and they are moving X amount of cars per month, BMW manufacturer can reward that dealer up to 2% of each car sold at that dealership. (According to Fightingchance.com package) Now, you'll never know how well each dealership is selling, but just the fact that you are aware of it means that when you are shopping for cars, there will invariably be some dealership who wouldn't mind selling you for real cheap because they are within reach of that quota. They will be more willing to profit less from you cause they are looking at that huge gold pot at the end of the rainbow. That's why its good to negotiate with as many dealerships as possible when searching for your dream car.

You may also get better deals if you intend to service your car at that dealership. Some salespeople may laugh at you on this point, but the thing is, dealership DO earn quite a huge chunk of their money from servicing cars. After sales ie servicing cars, is a very important revenue to them. Dealers may drop the price if you tell them you will service your car with them.

Lastly, its just a matter of perspective whether you calculate $X below MSRP or $X above invoice. The important thing is to figure out how much the market is going for and then pay that. So if getting $1000 below MSRP is a good deal in Canada, then go for it. If you can haggle them down to $2000 below MSRP, that's even better too. All I know is for US, for a 2006 E90 you should be paying $1000 to $1500 above invoice or approx $1800 to $2300 below MSRP (depending on options). Although BigDog08 manages to get his car for $800 above invoice in NJ, which is a superb deal. Wish I got that in LA!

TO SUM IT UP:
INVOICE PRICE - DEALER INCENTIVES - REBATES = TRUE DEALER COST (that's as much as we as consumer can determine, automakers have other ways to reward dealers that is not revealed outside of the dealer community)

GOOD DEAL is : TRUE DEALER COST + DEALER PROFIT (approx 3~5% of dealer cost) + $0 FEES (other than tax/ lic which you HAVE to pay. BullS**t fees you should NOT pay are dealer prep, doc fee, acq fee, MF fee, advertising fee, weatherizing, undercoating, pinstriping.. etc MACO fee appears to be "mandatory" however plenty of people got out of paying that as well)

Converting INVOICE +$X to MSRP - $Y

eg: For my 2006 325i with options , the MSRP is $40,715 . Invoice is $37390. Go from Invoice price, factor in dealer profit $1500, final price is $38890. Take MSRP $40715 - $38890 gives $1825

Ie : for my case
INVOICE +$1500 = MSRP - $1825 That was what I was aiming for.


-Spaceman


Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl10
Agree with all of the above. A couple more comments on the CDN pricing practices:
- I haven't seen a BMW dealer in Canada negotiating from invoice, it is always from MSRP. There may be exceptions, but generally, dealers here are selling the quality of the experience, not the sticker price. Lots of focus on after-sales, etc.
- That MSRP is not comparable to the US MSRP, not only to currency variations, but also due to different options, different items in the base build, etc
- In addition to all of the rebates mentioned above, CDN BMW dealers are also compensated based on customer satisfaction scores. We could argue about whether those scores increase the rebates for good scores, or simply withhold rebates for low scores, but they do count. BMW Canada has been using this to improve the service focus of the dealer network. It appears to be working, from years of watching.
- Typically, $1000 off MSRP is a reasonable deal here, at least with the dealers in my region. Second and third purchases, especially close together, improve that, but it is nothing like the US situation where purchasers are regularly discussing invoice prices.
- The situation here is very dependent on which brand is under discussion. Toyota instituted a national one price policy some years back, and it was challenged in the courts. (it was a little like the US Saturn policy) BMW doesn't have a formal policy out there, they just don't discuss invoice. Same with some other high end brands. Ford and GM will be glad to show you the invoice themselves, and work up from there. Other manufacturers are all over the map.
- With all of them, the trade is the variable, and if those who don't deal on price, want to deal, that is where it will happen.

As a comment from someone who has purchased in both systems, I rather like the current BMW Canada practice. The prices are published. The variable is between 1000 and 2000 off. There is no lost sleep over 'did I get the best deal'. If I want a BMW, this is the way it is. If I want to negotiate price, I can buy used, or buy a different brand. I wish more manufacturers worked this way, I don't enjoy the long negotiation and silly games that go on so often. Of course, lots of individuals do want to go through the negotiation process.
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Last edited by spaceman; 06-20-2005 at 12:33 AM.
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  #30  
Old 06-19-2005, 11:05 PM
RedStripe RedStripe is offline
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After the last few posts, I think it's important to reemphasize the point that pricing information outside of the US is not anywhere near as accessible or prevalent as it is here in the States.

As Wolf359 and jcl10 have stated that working under MSRP is the norm in Canada, I believe the main reason is because Canadians can't get the invoice price like we can here in the USA. And Spaceman gave a very detailed look at how negotiating according to dealer costs works here in the USA. I'm sure that method would be a lot more prevalent in Canada if only invoice prices and dealer incentives were publicly and freely available as they are in the USA.

Last edited by RedStripe; 06-19-2005 at 11:07 PM.
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  #31  
Old 06-20-2005, 12:06 AM
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spaceman spaceman is offline
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You are right, RedStripe. I meant US is similar to Canada in that the dealership on both sides work under the CSI dealer reward system. I should've been clearer about that. My bad. And yes, it is much harder to obtain invoice prices in Canada, unlike US. Here's a website that I found that does offer Canadian Car invoice prices:
http://www.carcostcanada.com

For US, its best to check out http://fightingchance.com and http://www.carbuyingtips.com/
before making a huge purchase on a car. I am not affiliated with any of these sites, but it definitely educated me and empowered me when I decide to upgrade my hyundai sonata to a E90.

-spaceman

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedStripe
After the last few posts, I think it's important to reemphasize the point that pricing information outside of the US is not anywhere near as accessible or prevalent as it is here in the States.

As Wolf359 and jcl10 have stated that working under MSRP is the norm in Canada, I believe the main reason is because Canadians can't get the invoice price like we can here in the USA. And Spaceman gave a very detailed look at how negotiating according to dealer costs works here in the USA. I'm sure that method would be a lot more prevalent in Canada if only invoice prices and dealer incentives were publicly and freely available as they are in the USA.
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Last edited by spaceman; 06-20-2005 at 12:11 AM.
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  #32  
Old 06-20-2005, 02:37 AM
RedStripe RedStripe is offline
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That's right, that's where I got invoice pricing for that Toyota Corolla. Man, I remember having to pay like $15 or $20 for it, and it didn't even break out the separate option pricings, it just gave you invoice pricing for the base model. And if I remember correctly, it didn't even give you all 3 trims, you had to pick one of the trim levels. More info costs you more money!

Again, for those in the US who appreciate the power of information and knowledge, you don't know how good we have it here unless you've done it somewhere else. God Bless America.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceman
... And yes, it is much harder to obtain invoice prices in Canada, unlike US. Here's a website that I found that does offer Canadian Car invoice prices:
http://www.carcostcanada.com ...

-spaceman
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  #33  
Old 06-20-2005, 05:35 AM
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Wolf359 Wolf359 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceman
before making a huge purchase on a car. I am not affiliated with any of these sites, but it definitely educated me and empowered me when I decide to upgrade my hyundai sonata to a E90.
Congratulations, that's a good step up!

Can you imagine what it was like for me to move from a 1989 Mazda 323 hatchback to a Y2K 323i?
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  #34  
Old 06-20-2005, 07:37 AM
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mbushnell mbushnell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njbimmerman
BigDog did you only go to JMK or did you check out prices at Morristown BMW, Denville BMW or the dealers in Wayne (Rt 23 I think) Essex BMW or Open Road BMW? Maybe others?h

I live in Morris Plains and closest to me are Morristown or Denville but I'm willing to travel a little for a great deal.
I also live in Berkeley Heights & bought my ED 2003 325xiT through JMK, mostly because it is the closest dealer to me.

I went around to quite a few dealers. Morristown & Flemington were not interested at all in doing Euro Delivery.

I also went to Huntington, Denville, & Paul Miller, but their deals were not much different from JMK's, so I went there for convience.
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  #35  
Old 06-20-2005, 09:16 AM
PeterM1 PeterM1 is offline
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Huh, this is very interesting info. When I got my X5, JMK wouldn't even come close to the price I was getting at Morristown BMW after negotiation. The other dealer at Rt 17 was higher than JMK too (can't remember the name).
I'm in the market for a 325i and I went straight to Morrist only, I'll check out JMK as well based on the info above as well.. Thanks!
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  #36  
Old 06-20-2005, 10:37 AM
Jdar330 Jdar330 is offline
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Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by ihavedrivenanm1
???

As of today between about 10AM and 8PM, between Santa Monica, Beverly Hills, Century West, and Center there are, by my count, about 25 e90's on the lots and for sale; not exactly flooded with e90s but not scarce either.
Since release date, last week in may,
I have yet to spot one on the road. I did however spot one in parking lot, AW/Beige 325i; seems like most are "en route".
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  #37  
Old 06-20-2005, 02:46 PM
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spaceman spaceman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Can you imagine what it was like for me to move from a 1989 Mazda 323 hatchback to a Y2K 323i?
Must be Heavenly I bet!
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  #38  
Old 06-21-2005, 02:23 PM
Getsmmr Getsmmr is offline
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Thumbs up JMK Rocks

I have a CPO 02 330i from them and they are unbelievable.

They overcharged me $70 for NYS registration and sent me a check BACK for that amount when I never would have known.

For servicing, they come and get the car from me in NYC, give me a loaner and then return the car to me at my convenience - ALL FOR FREE.
I had a few minor check up items post delivery - they replaced everything I complained about under warranty (slight brake vibration, window creaking, noisy belts) - No Questions Asked. This included all new discs, regulators, tensioners, etc.

These guys clearly care about repeat sales and are entirely focused on multiple sales, not just taking a one time fee. BTW, they are also the #1 SAAB distributor in the Northeast - and that's saying a lot considering the awful service record of those vehicles.
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  #39  
Old 06-21-2005, 04:14 PM
BigDog008 BigDog008 is offline
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ya, i love JMK's service

on my e46 i had to have the automatic tranny replaced, they gave me a loaner for the 3 days it took, let me return it at my convenience...

one time i got two flat tires, they arranged for it to be flatbedded to their service center and only charged me for one tire to be replaced...


I will be hopefully picking up my E90 on friday
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