Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > E60 (2004 - 2010)

E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-21-2006, 09:55 PM
E60K E60K is offline
Registered User
Location: Los Angeles
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 20
Mein Auto: E60
Unhappy SMG E60 What's the Real Deal? Please Advise

Too All,

I am really confused about my pending 550i purschase. Auto or SMG? Sure the auto is great, buttery smooth. However, I thought if BMW believes in it strongly enough to introduce the M5 with it, it must be good to go. However, I am getting persuasive information against SMG.

The first time I drove SMG was in a 03 M3. I hated it. It was jerky through every gear-even in auto mode. The salesman explained that BMW purposely wanted it jerky to give non-manual drivers the sensation of a manual. What did he know? I told him that made no sense and that I could shift manually smoother than the SMG. A month later I drove an E60 w/ SMG and once the owner demonstrated it properly - I was shifting smooth and quick. Rather entertaining at the same time.

However, two or three dealers that I have talked to have talked me out of the SMG. The BMW dealership in Glendale, CA flat out said they would rather loose my business than order me an SMG. They claim that they had to buy a few of them back due to transmission failure. The dealership in Long Beach, CA told me to avoid the SMG and "strongely" recommended against it. The third dealership didn't have an opinion.

So what is the real deal? Is this a flute or a problem prone? And while we're on the subject - does SMG get old after a while?

Thanks
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
  #2  
Old 05-21-2006, 11:43 PM
Ågent99's Avatar
Ågent99 Ågent99 is offline
Moderator, 5-Series
Location: Bay Area, CA
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,930
Mein Auto: Trek 6500 MTB
Please do a search in the E60 forum only (Pick Advanced Search under the Search button) on "SMG" and you can read up on plenty of stuff to help you with your decision.

I'm glad you had someone who knows something about the tranny show you how to use it. There certainly is a learning curve with this tranny. Once you learn it, you will love it as I did in my 545i.

The only reason I am skipping on my '07 550i is because of the cost (GGT = $1300) and because it will mostly be my wife's car. If there was no GGT on it, I'd be ordering it period.

Sounds like you have some soul-searching to do...good luck!
__________________
2001 530i/5 (E39), Topaz Blue/Stone Green/Black (118k miles) *very rare interior/exterior color combo*
2005 545i/SMG (E60), ED Order, Titanium Grey/Grey (lease over)
2015 335i, ED Order Summer 2015
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-22-2006, 08:30 AM
DanM3's Avatar
DanM3 DanM3 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Los Angeles, CA
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 182
Mein Auto: F10 M5
For me, it was between SMG and a manual. My dealer also advised me not to get the SMG. The SMG in the 550i (an all non "M" cars) is scaled down. It does not have the 11 or 12 modes available in the M series. I was also told that the shifts do produce a bit of a jerk. For, me I choose the manual. The full auto is very smooth and you have enough power to deal with anything. Just my two cents.
__________________

2013 M5 Silverstone/Black, Full Leather, Exec, Driver Asst, 20s, Bang & Olufsen
2007 550i TiSi/Black, Manual, Sport, Logic7, iPod, Navi, Heated Seats, M Aero Kit, 19" 172 Wheels. For Sale
2002 X5 3.0 Cold, Prem., 18" Style 74 Wheels & Child Seat. Retired
2002 M3 TiSi/Black, Manual, Prem., HK, Xenon Retired
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-22-2006, 08:32 AM
mullman's Avatar
mullman mullman is offline
friend of the marque
Location: Charlotte NC
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,943
Send a message via AIM to mullman
Mein Auto: '09 MINI, '09 HD, '67 BMW
Depends on whether your are looking for more sport or more luxury.

Dan M3, EXACTLY why I went full manual.

I love the M-SMG box with all the modes, but the SMG in the reg cars feels just like Step with paddles, IMHO. If that works for you awesome.
__________________
• BMWCCA VBMWMO BMWVMCA •

'09 MINI S: 'Ronin' '09 H-D Nightster '67 R60/2+'52 Steib sidecar
•previous '95 318i '00 540i6 '61 R50S '69 R69US '98 R1100R '65 R50/2 '64 R50/2 '07 BMW 530i6 ED
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-22-2006, 08:59 AM
credit777's Avatar
credit777 credit777 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Diego
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 444
Mein Auto: 750i
The new SMG is much better than the SMG in the 03 M3 you drove - but it is NOT the same as the SMG in the current M5.

I recently came back from the BMW peformance track where I drove the SMG in the M3, the M5 and the 650. I loved it - and didn't find it needed a "learning curve" at all. I liked it - and will definately opt for it next time. I also liked that it automatcally starts you off in first gear out of a stop.

The ONLY thing I really didn't care for was the SMGs "auto" mode - its overly sensitive to the throttle and will stick in a gear a bit longer than you intend. This can cause some jerkiness in city driving.

If you want manual - get the SMG. If you are going to drive mostly in "auto" mode, get the STEP - and use DS mode. For an automatic - it does a great job.
__________________


[His] 2006 750i Sport - Jet Black, 21" wheels, premium sound, luxury seating, convenience, comfort access, Sirius (Jet)
[Hers] 2008 650i - Metallic Black, Sports, Prem Sound, HUD, HD Radio, Cold Weather, Sirius (Shiloh)

Moved on from:
2005 645Ci (Ava)
2004 545i (Chief)
2002 330i (Kira)
1998 528i (Slick)
1999 540i (Sly)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-22-2006, 11:15 AM
chitung chitung is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Bay Area
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 141
Mein Auto: E60 530i
I drive Step with M5 SMG paddle shifts
No worry for tow truck in case SMG failure.
__________________
"chitung" AKA "my530i" on E60.net
550i Alpine White/Auburn MY06. M5 Steering wheel with SMG Paddles on Steptronic, M5 knob, L7, Nav, HUD, Bluetooth, Fold down rear seat, Front heat seat, M5 lip spoiler and trunk finisher
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-22-2006, 11:23 AM
chuck92103's Avatar
chuck92103 chuck92103 is offline
Banned
Location: Socal
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,650
Mein Auto: 2005 BMW 645Ci
The SMG manumatic in the M cars is not the same as the system in the 550/650. Not even close.

In either case, they are quite complicated and prone to failure which is why they are not heavily marketed. All kinds of complaints from jerkyness, computer failure, lag, etc.

The best thing you can do is try one out and see if you like it.

I can find 100 people on this board that hate SMG. I can also find 100 people who love it. All agree, it takes weeks to learn how to drive it as smoothly as possible.

Dealers don't like to sell them because they will have to deal with bitchy people. They would rather not recommend SMG and keep a customer.

I recommend getting a step or SMG. The manual does not mate well to a car with so much torque which is why SMG is offered.

Last edited by chuck92103; 05-22-2006 at 11:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-22-2006, 11:33 AM
krispykreme krispykreme is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Fremont
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 209
Mein Auto: '04 E55, '04 Sienna,
None M SMG are made designed by milie miligia (yes, I know i am butchering it). It's actually alpha's selespeed.

The M SMG are jointly developed by BMW and siemens.

As far as SMG goes. Never use it in auto mode. Because it would be very difficult to feather the throttle timely.

SMG can be driven very smoothly. My wife can't tell when i am actually shifting. It is that smooth. There are problem and issues with SMG, but unless you are a die hard track guy, you probably will not have issue with it.

I have owned 2 M SMG cars. If you learned how to feather the throttle (same as you have to on a manual) you will be fine.

As far as regular SMG goes. Never lived with one. So i can't really comment on it.

I would still prefer to have true manual. But if you live in area with tons of traffic, SMG is not a bad compromise.
__________________
2013 F10 M5- Amazonite Silver
2011 328i- Alpine White
2011 Sienna XLE- SilverGrey
2011 Sienna limited AWD- Predawn Grey
2009 E93 M3- silverstone
2007 Gallardo- Arancio Borealis
2004 E55- Tectite Grey
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-22-2006, 12:07 PM
Design1stCode2n Design1stCode2n is offline
Registered User
Location: MD
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 72
Mein Auto: 08 STI
I drove a 330 manual and a 545 SMG back to back and my wife said the SMG was much smoother. Granted it’s been 3 years since I’ve driven a manual and any new manual takes a little getting used to. I found it fairly smooth and I’m sure I would do better after more than a 10 minute test drive (I also drove it like a tiptronic, full gas and just up or downshift). If you like to shift for yourself but don’t always want to the SMG seems like a good option. As far as failure is concerned that is what warranties and extended warranties are for right?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-22-2006, 12:29 PM
Ågent99's Avatar
Ågent99 Ågent99 is offline
Moderator, 5-Series
Location: Bay Area, CA
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,930
Mein Auto: Trek 6500 MTB
I haven't heard of too many SMG failures...at least not on this board. Seems that most of them are working fine. The biggest issue is the lack of knowledge and learning curve needed to appreciate the SMG.

I'll go back in time: +3!
__________________
2001 530i/5 (E39), Topaz Blue/Stone Green/Black (118k miles) *very rare interior/exterior color combo*
2005 545i/SMG (E60), ED Order, Titanium Grey/Grey (lease over)
2015 335i, ED Order Summer 2015

Last edited by Ågent99; 05-22-2006 at 02:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-22-2006, 01:59 PM
vegastrashed vegastrashed is offline
Sung Hi Lee avatar :P
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 674
Mein Auto: 2007 E63 AMG
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck92103

I can find 100 people on this board that hate SMG. I can also find 100 people who love it. All agree, it takes weeks to learn how to drive it as smoothly as possible.
Start count: +1.
__________________
2007 E63 AMG, some mods
2005 545i Sport SMG (Gone but not forgotten)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-22-2006, 02:01 PM
credit777's Avatar
credit777 credit777 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Diego
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 444
Mein Auto: 750i
Quote:
Originally Posted by ***197;gent99
I haven't heard of too many SMG failures...at least not on this board. Seems that most of them are working fine. The biggest issue is the lack of knowledge and learning curve needed to appreciate the SMG.

True...but its not that steep of a learning curve.

oh... +2!
__________________


[His] 2006 750i Sport - Jet Black, 21" wheels, premium sound, luxury seating, convenience, comfort access, Sirius (Jet)
[Hers] 2008 650i - Metallic Black, Sports, Prem Sound, HUD, HD Radio, Cold Weather, Sirius (Shiloh)

Moved on from:
2005 645Ci (Ava)
2004 545i (Chief)
2002 330i (Kira)
1998 528i (Slick)
1999 540i (Sly)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-22-2006, 02:09 PM
DanM3's Avatar
DanM3 DanM3 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Los Angeles, CA
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 182
Mein Auto: F10 M5
I think can be summed up as a personal preference, right? I opted for the 6 speed manual becuase I want to be able to drop the clutch off the line if I feel like it. There is no launch control on the non M SMG. Again, my two cents.
__________________

2013 M5 Silverstone/Black, Full Leather, Exec, Driver Asst, 20s, Bang & Olufsen
2007 550i TiSi/Black, Manual, Sport, Logic7, iPod, Navi, Heated Seats, M Aero Kit, 19" 172 Wheels. For Sale
2002 X5 3.0 Cold, Prem., 18" Style 74 Wheels & Child Seat. Retired
2002 M3 TiSi/Black, Manual, Prem., HK, Xenon Retired
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-22-2006, 02:19 PM
sdriver's Avatar
sdriver sdriver is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Mountain View
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 197
Mein Auto: 2004 530i/SMG
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanM3
I think can be summed up as a personal preference, right? I opted for the 6 speed manual becuase I want to be able to drop the clutch off the line if I feel like it. There is no launch control on the non M SMG. Again, my two cents.
Yes there is. It is in the manual for my 2004 530i SMG. I've used it a number of times... scares the crap out of people inside and outside the car.

Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-22-2006, 02:25 PM
BayAreaBMWFan BayAreaBMWFan is offline
Back in California
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,251
Mein Auto: '12 328 Vert; '09 Odyssey
If you accept the fact that it is a manual tranny and are willing to learn how to operate it, the SMG is the way to go.

The new steptronics are not bad with their manual mode but they can never be as precise as a manual when it comes to controlling the shift points etc. After all they have a slush box and the shifts can never be as fast as a manual tranny; especially a sequential one with no H.
__________________
2012 328Ci Black/Black ZPP
2011 528 Black/Black Retired ZPP ZP2 BMW Apps
2005 330Ci SparkGraphite/Gray Retired ZHP, Step, Nav, Xenon, Heated Seats, PDC
2007 X3 3.0si AlpiWhite/Tobacco ED Retired Step, ZSP, ZPP, ZCW, PDC, Nav, Xenon, Privacy Glass, Servotronic, Cargo Net
2002 745Li Slate Green Metallic/Beige Retired; Perfect baby-hauler
2006 525 TiAg/Black Retired
2004 3.0 Z4 Black/Black/Black SMG Retired
2003 525iA TiAg/Gray Retired;King of all Bimmers, the E39
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-22-2006, 04:42 PM
chuck92103's Avatar
chuck92103 chuck92103 is offline
Banned
Location: Socal
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,650
Mein Auto: 2005 BMW 645Ci
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdriver
Yes there is. It is in the manual for my 2004 530i SMG. I've used it a number of times... scares the crap out of people inside and outside the car.

Tt is not the same. There is no pre-rev.

It is not even called launch control on non-M's. It is called Acceleration Assistant.

The manual simply states to turn off DTC/DSC and floor it.

Last edited by chuck92103; 05-22-2006 at 05:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-22-2006, 06:28 PM
BayAreaBMWFan BayAreaBMWFan is offline
Back in California
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,251
Mein Auto: '12 328 Vert; '09 Odyssey
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck92103
Tt is not the same. There is no pre-rev.

It is not even called launch control on non-M's. It is called Acceleration Assistant.

The manual simply states to turn off DTC/DSC and floor it.
Nope it is not just flooring but pressing the gas, while keeping a button pressed and then releasing a button (or something like that). It is not just turn DTC/DSC off and floor it. IIRC it does allow you to pre-rev before launcing it.
__________________
2012 328Ci Black/Black ZPP
2011 528 Black/Black Retired ZPP ZP2 BMW Apps
2005 330Ci SparkGraphite/Gray Retired ZHP, Step, Nav, Xenon, Heated Seats, PDC
2007 X3 3.0si AlpiWhite/Tobacco ED Retired Step, ZSP, ZPP, ZCW, PDC, Nav, Xenon, Privacy Glass, Servotronic, Cargo Net
2002 745Li Slate Green Metallic/Beige Retired; Perfect baby-hauler
2006 525 TiAg/Black Retired
2004 3.0 Z4 Black/Black/Black SMG Retired
2003 525iA TiAg/Gray Retired;King of all Bimmers, the E39
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-22-2006, 06:59 PM
sdriver's Avatar
sdriver sdriver is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Mountain View
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 197
Mein Auto: 2004 530i/SMG
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck92103
Tt is not the same. There is no pre-rev.

It is not even called launch control on non-M's. It is called Acceleration Assistant.

The manual simply states to turn off DTC/DSC and floor it.
The non-M SMG pre-revs. It gets to about 3500-4000RPM and drops the clutch. I test drove a M3 w/SMG 8 months ago and it did the same as mine. The only diff with mine and the M is the paddles are correct (one for down another for up), it is adjustable for automatic mode (shift point programming), and in sport mode it will "match + 500RPM" when shifting (mine just matches RPM to the new gear). It is also about 20ms faster.

Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-22-2006, 07:49 PM
Design1stCode2n Design1stCode2n is offline
Registered User
Location: MD
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 72
Mein Auto: 08 STI
And you can always just put your left foot on the brake.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-22-2006, 08:31 PM
credit777's Avatar
credit777 credit777 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Diego
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 444
Mein Auto: 750i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Design1stCode2n
And you can always just put your left foot on the brake.
My friend loves to use that technique - and boy does it create a wall of white smoke!
__________________


[His] 2006 750i Sport - Jet Black, 21" wheels, premium sound, luxury seating, convenience, comfort access, Sirius (Jet)
[Hers] 2008 650i - Metallic Black, Sports, Prem Sound, HUD, HD Radio, Cold Weather, Sirius (Shiloh)

Moved on from:
2005 645Ci (Ava)
2004 545i (Chief)
2002 330i (Kira)
1998 528i (Slick)
1999 540i (Sly)
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-23-2006, 10:21 AM
Design1stCode2n Design1stCode2n is offline
Registered User
Location: MD
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 72
Mein Auto: 08 STI
I think I remember reading in C&D that the technique they used for their tests was to always preload autos by using the brake and reving just prior to the cut-off. They always seem to post the best 0-60 times, I think the e90 they tested went 0-60 in 5.6 while for the average joe it's probably more like 6.0.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-23-2006, 12:37 PM
E60K E60K is offline
Registered User
Location: Los Angeles
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 20
Mein Auto: E60
SMG - All that I've learned

Thanks for all your replies.

I did a lot of calling around yesterday to mechanics to find the real deal about failures. Face it, most salesman don't know about the SMG technology and can't even give a proper testdrive so I went to the Bimmer Doctors.

There have been some failures, some with the pump and some with the software. All should be resolved by now. The failures get more of the limelight b/c so few of them out there so it throws us into a frenzy when we read it.

Most dealerships don't want to order a car that appeals to less than 1% of the Bimmer owners. I can't blame them for not wanting to get stuck with a hard to sell car.

The other half of the people that complain is due to the famed "learning curve" and "misunderstanding" what SMG is. Many think it is another input for a stepstronic.

Mechanics have told me the E60 has the same SMG II as the M3 - less the many software mapping profiles. All the SMGs produced were modifications of the previous transmission. The E60 M5 is the first car built from the ground up to be an SMG. Therefore even faster and smoother.

Now that that is settled I want to hear from the owners about real world driving. Is the auto mode just "OK" for traffic or jerky? Does the paddle shifting wear on you for city driving -feel like you're getting carpul tunnel? What about driving up hill? - are you rolling backwards or burning the clutch?

Thoughts appreciated
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-23-2006, 04:11 PM
Ågent99's Avatar
Ågent99 Ågent99 is offline
Moderator, 5-Series
Location: Bay Area, CA
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,930
Mein Auto: Trek 6500 MTB
I hated the paddles (hands/fingers not large/long enough I guess) but even if they fit me, I could never get my head around which way was to up/down shift so I rarely used them. I driven manuals most of my life and prefer the shaft of the stick in my palm so I used the stick for shifting. It take some getting used to only moving the shifter one direction but you quickly adapt.

I rarely used the auto mode but I found that driving it in the Sport mode to be much less jerky overall. It definately takes some finesse/feathering with the accelerator to get clean shifting...heck, you need it for manual shifting as well!

However, guess what?! You don't really need the auto mode since there is no clutch to manipulate even in the "manual shift" mode. I certainly didn't use it much at all.

Hills? Never had an issue and I live in the Bay Area and visit San Francisco once a month. I'm not sure you'll find a better test track for hills than SF!!

There, my two drachmas.
__________________
2001 530i/5 (E39), Topaz Blue/Stone Green/Black (118k miles) *very rare interior/exterior color combo*
2005 545i/SMG (E60), ED Order, Titanium Grey/Grey (lease over)
2015 335i, ED Order Summer 2015
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-23-2006, 05:25 PM
sdriver's Avatar
sdriver sdriver is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Mountain View
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 197
Mein Auto: 2004 530i/SMG
Keep in mind, the ONLY time I would ever think of using auto mode was in traffic. In that case I'd use auto+sport. Auto seems to change the gears up/down too agressivly so making the gear changes fast seems to smooth it out.

The sport mode for me is very jerky. As soon as I move the stick or smack the paddle it would be in the new gear - so there was always a jerk. Some have said, "take foot off gas when shifting in sport mode". If I did that, there would no reason to use sport mode... I hardly ever had mine in sport mode. I only do when I want to burn some kid in a VW who thinks his Golf/Jetta/Passattte is hot stuff... So my jerkiness is probably because whenever I am in sport mode I am taking corners at 60 and downshifting hard for tearing out of the corner fast again...

I've taken a number of Audi's from shifting alone... we both hit the "top of 1st" and the shift for me is instant... I lurch ahead about a car length. When 2nd->3rd comes it is the same or worse (usually after getting burned on the 1st->2nd shift they try to match 'my' shifting and end up screwing up).

Hills are never a problem - I'm frequently in San Francisco for work.

Unlike Agent99, I find the paddles easy to use (and I love them). When I'm racing some kid on the freeway, I usually use them so I can keep both hands on the wheel. It is also a godsent when talking on my cell, I can shift and operate the steering wheel without juggling.

On another note, the service people seem to like the SMG more than the sales people at BMW. The Sales people allways talk trash about it... but the Service guys dig it. They know it is an awesome trans.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > E60 (2004 - 2010)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A purist review of SMG II nate General BMW 30 03-25-2013 05:47 PM
This Is The Official Hijack Thread... Sabrina Off-Topic 146 05-21-2009 06:38 PM
smg in the e60 hugh1850 E60 (2004 - 2010) 5 06-24-2005 07:14 AM
Lots of real life E60 pictures at a launch SchwartzBlack 5 Series 2 05-30-2003 09:55 AM
so this is the real deal right kids? (PC question) low The Detail Department 8 03-11-2003 05:52 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms