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E85 / E86 Z4 (2003-2008)
E85 Z4 convertible and E86 Z4 coupe talk with our BMW gurus here.

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  #276  
Old 07-19-2007, 10:00 PM
gusmiami gusmiami is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GP20 View Post
BTW, did they sort out the front suspension noises? I talked to TCK yesterday, and they claimed that the 2 people that had the revised struts installed (1 of them is you, the other guy is in FL) never complained about the noises to TCK and they're not aware that the noise still exisits.
Sorry for the late post on this. I hadn't been on here for a while. Anyway, I'm "the guy in Florida" that has the set of TCK coilovers that makes the clunking sound. I don't know why he would say I never complained about noises....especially when I'm on my SECOND set of clunking coilovers. I'm supposedly waiting for a set "direct from Koni in europe". I was told that the first few sets were NOT made by Koni, that they were modified by another company here in the states. I'm FAR from Happy. I have had to pay EACH time I have swapped out the co's and since that's obviously not an easy install, it has cost a good chunk of change. This just isn't fun anymore.
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Last edited by gusmiami; 07-19-2007 at 10:11 PM.
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  #277  
Old 07-20-2007, 10:04 AM
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Palantirion Palantirion is offline
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Originally Posted by preppy View Post
Mind explaining a little more? Crazy
-Sure, I'll explain. I haven't had time to scan the real dyno runs and do a proper writeup, so I thought I'd mess with you. That 800HP run belongs to a TT NSX.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gusmiami View Post
Sorry for the late post on this. I hadn't been on here for a while. Anyway, I'm "the guy in Florida" that has the set of TCK coilovers that makes the clunking sound. I don't know why he would say I never complained about noises....especially when I'm on my SECOND set of clunking coilovers. I'm supposedly waiting for a set "direct from Koni in europe". I was told that the first few sets were NOT made by Koni, that they were modified by another company here in the states. I'm FAR from Happy. I have had to pay EACH time I have swapped out the co's and since that's obviously not an easy install, it has cost a good chunk of change. This just isn't fun anymore.
-I haven't complained to TCK, mainly because I've been too busy. Also because I didn't think he'd do anything if I did complain. It's not like he has any other Koni DAs lying around, right? I figured I'd wait until the "production" ones arrive in the beginning of August and see if the clunking has been fixed. In the meantime, feel free to quote me. The clunking still DOES exist and the product is different than advertised.
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  #278  
Old 07-20-2007, 10:22 AM
gusmiami gusmiami is offline
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Originally Posted by Palantirion View Post
-I haven't complained to TCK, mainly because I've been too busy. Also because I didn't think he'd do anything if I did complain. It's not like he has any other Koni DAs lying around, right? I figured I'd wait until the "production" ones arrive in the beginning of August and see if the clunking has been fixed. In the meantime, feel free to quote me. The clunking still DOES exist and the product is different than advertised.
I concur. I spoke to him the other day and although he is straightforward in telling me what the problem is, it doesn't change the fact that I got a product that should never have been sold to me or anyone else. Maybe someone can explain this to me......NOW is when I find out that the clunking in the rear co's is "normal". Why is it ok for the rear and not the back? I asked TCK this question and he answered with something along the lines of, "that's always been an issue". I asked why that's acceptable (to him, from Koni) and he said that the koni shock is SO much better than anything else that you'd rather live with that than less performance from another make. I dunno...just seems like it's just easier to sell it and make money than fix the problem.
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  #279  
Old 08-16-2007, 06:04 AM
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Luminor Luminor is offline
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Pal, any updates to report?
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  #280  
Old 08-20-2007, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Luminor View Post
Pal, any updates to report?
-Yes. And I must apologize for the excessive time since my last update. My wife and I went on a weeklong vacation near Mammoth, and then I had ICL surgery (a planned procedure, it went well) + recovery after that. I went from 20/200 to 20/20 in my left eye, and 20/200 to 20/35 in my right eye (it has more astigmatism, which will be fixed later via Lasik). Then I had to get caught up on everything I missed in those 2 1/2 weeks, including this thread. So...

Exhaust performance
This has been an interesting adventure into the idiosyncrasies of dynoing a BMW. In short, we (by which I mean me and the dyno tech at Autowave) were never able to get what he considered to be ideally repeatable runs. Even when stock, the HP curves of same-day runs would vary by a degree that he considered outside the norm. This isn't to say that we couldn't discover useful info, but it took many runs to figure out what constituted a "normal" curve. First we had to get the Coupe to stop dumping fuel at high rpm. It turns out that you need to cool the hell out of the radiator between runs. I also ran it with both Stage 2 (mufflers and x-pipe) and Stage 3 (Stage 2+ scrubber cat delete section) configurations.

We were puzzled to discover that there is a significant increase in bottom-end torque with both configurations, but the power dropped to stock levels (or less in the case of Stage 3) in the upper rpm band. This makes no sense from a physics standpoint, as a more open exhaust does flow better at higher rpm. If anything, you tend to loose bottom-end with a more open exhaust BUT, as it turns out, the Stage 3 system seems to be too good , pulling air past the O2 sensors too quickly (there is an algorithm for exhaust impulse speed that needs to be seen as "normal" or the ECU retards the engine). The Stage 2 system makes a lot more power than stock on the bottom end as well, fading to stock levels at higher rpm.

I dropped the Coupe off at Split Second for Mark to work his magic. He made a completely reversible MAF-intercept piggyback harness for our Z4s that allowed him to modify and custom tune the MAF output signal to whatever is ideal for whatever intake/exhaust configuration a given Z4 has. After installation of the little black box they road tested the Coupe, changing the MAF signal on-the-fly in various states of load and speed. They also spent an hour or so on the dyno, tuning. I hoped that he would be able to modify the signal enough to let the ECU calm down and let the engine make the power that the exhaust opens up physically. Unfortunately, altering the MAF signal wasn't sufficient. Most likely we would need to alter timing and the O2 signal to make the most of the Stage 2 setup, or to make the Stage 3 system useful at all. I'm going to investigate options, but the Stage 2 exhaust is great regardless.

Exhaust progress
The jigging is taking place, and should be finished in the next week. I know Chris already has heard from several of you regarding orders. I know there was some holdup while I was on vacation, but everything seems to be on-track now to get the exhaust into production-ready status.

Dyno graph
Note: The graph is NOT corrected for temperature and pressure! Please remember that run 001 was done at 56F, while runs 009 and 012 were run at 71F and 76F, respectively.


I created a spreadsheet to correct for temperature and pressure. The 292HP peak of run 001 is actually 289rwhp (or 332hp at the crank). For run 009 (Stage 3 exhaust), peak HP dropped to 274rwhp (313hp). For run 012 (Stage 2 exhaust) power was back to stock (288rwhp, 331hp), BUT there was a huge swell of midrange torque! In fact, both Stage 2 and Stage 3 exhausts increased power a lot up to about 6000rpm, as you can see in the graph. Stage 2 makes an additional 7hp and between 5 and 10ft-lb up until 5300rpm (remember the graph is not corrected!) before the curves taper back to stock levels. The Stage 3 makes as much as 20ft-lb (yeah, 20!) and 14hp way down at 3300rpm! Unfortunately the curve then drops to crap because we can't control the ECU. It's possible that this may change in the future (I'd LOVE to see what either exhaust can make with proper ECU manipulation!), but don't hold your breath. In the meantime (remember the system is totally modular), enjoy the Stage 2. It adds more power to the most often used part of the powerband, reduces weight, increased underbody airflow, and looks better than stock

p.s. Removing the secondary air filter element made no perceivable difference on the dyno.
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  #281  
Old 08-20-2007, 08:38 AM
stephenti stephenti is offline
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Good Stuff... factory ECU programs are big time nannies nowadays. Back when I was trying to squeez hp out of my 996T, all kinds of safe-guards would kick in... looks like BMW is just as guarded. Can't blame them, I guess. We need a hardcore code reader/writer to uncork this motor.
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  #282  
Old 08-20-2007, 08:50 AM
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Someone call the German tuners! Lots of great info palantirion. One stupid questions...what's a MAF?
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  #283  
Old 08-20-2007, 08:53 AM
Cliff Cliff is offline
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Originally Posted by Palantirion View Post
p.s. Removing the secondary air filter element made no perceivable difference on the dyno.
Not too surprising.
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  #284  
Old 08-20-2007, 11:48 AM
stephenti stephenti is offline
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Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
Not too surprising.

I'm sure it'll come as a shock to all those who swore they felt a hp increase via their hyper-sensitive butt dyno...
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  #285  
Old 08-20-2007, 01:31 PM
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Palantirion Palantirion is offline
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Originally Posted by Dammmittt View Post
Someone call the German tuners! Lots of great info palantirion. One stupid questions...what's a MAF?
-Mass Air Flow as in the sensor, or Mass Air Flow as in the style of air metering and fuel management system. It depends on context.
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  #286  
Old 08-21-2007, 07:44 AM
Old Navy Old Navy is offline
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Have you been using an air/fuel ratio meter with your dyno testing? If not, you might look into Innovate (sic) meters. They are portable and about $350.
My own experience tuning GM motors is that once fuel ratios are critical to max power, or finding where you are losing power.
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  #287  
Old 08-21-2007, 09:25 AM
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Have you been using an air/fuel ratio meter with your dyno testing? If not, you might look into Innovate (sic) meters. They are portable and about $350.
My own experience tuning GM motors is that once fuel ratios are critical to max power, or finding where you are losing power.
-Yes, I just didn't post that graph. The problem is that we have more going on within the ECU than just the AFR. Even with the same AFR graph we've gotten different HP curves. So we had to do a lot of runs and took the most common ones. I KNOW there is a lot more HP there, if we can just change software.
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  #288  
Old 08-21-2007, 03:28 PM
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Hasn't this all been figured out by the E46 guys already??? I can't believe our software is THAT different. I mean, I realize there will be differences, but shouldn't we be able to leverage what they've already learned??? I don't see what's taking the tuners so long to come out with software for our cars...
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  #289  
Old 08-21-2007, 08:01 PM
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Hasn't this all been figured out by the E46 guys already??? I can't believe our software is THAT different. I mean, I realize there will be differences, but shouldn't we be able to leverage what they've already learned??? I don't see what's taking the tuners so long to come out with software for our cars...
-The DME is different, although the software is obviously very similar. I know that Dinan's E46 software will not recognize a Z4 DME. There are others that I am going to call.
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  #290  
Old 08-21-2007, 08:33 PM
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ESS, ACS, and Hartge come to mind.
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  #291  
Old 08-21-2007, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Dammmittt View Post
ESS, ACS, and Hartge come to mind.
-And they would be willing to custom map to products they don't sell?
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  #292  
Old 08-22-2007, 12:06 AM
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Palantirion Palantirion is offline
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Mod 36
8-20-07

I got this idea from ROM3N, and it's not hard to do for a DIYer. Basically, you shave nearly 1/2 of the width of the clear side marker lenses, recessing them so they do not stick out as far.

Before:


After:


How I did it (a little different than ROM3N's procedure):
Note: Do the side markers one at a time, so you can use one as a reference for the other during alignment.
1) Twist and remove the side marker, and unplug the electrical connector. Note the change in texture of the clear lens near the orange bulb, this can be used to align the lens during reassembly.

2) Using a Dremel (wear safety glasses - REALLY!), score the clear plastic on the short (inboard) side of the second of four visible "rows". Don't dig too deep, just make a clean gouge.

3) Taking a second pass with the Dremel, cut all the way through the plastic. Make sure you don't burn past the 1/2-way mark. Taking three passes is ok if you need to.

4) Break the now-solidified plastic runoff with you fingers and sand the rough "bottom" of the lens so it will better reattach to the white base.

5) Using pliers, break the remaining lens from the white base and clean up the surface.

6) Dust the lens and base. You don't want to seal in any crap.

7) Spread a good thick glue (I used clear Goop, spreading it with a narrow flathead screwdriver) on the ring of the white base.

8) Attach the trimmed clear lens, aligning it as mentioned in step 1.

9) Let the glue completely dry. The glue takes all the rotational force when you remount the side marker, so it's important that the bond be very strong.

10) Plug the electrical connector back in, carefully feed the side marker back onto the car, press and twist to remount.
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  #293  
Old 08-22-2007, 04:41 AM
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inTgr8r inTgr8r is offline
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Nice job..

FWIW, I did basically the same thing, except;
After trying the Dremel, I used a hacksaw with a fine blade.

Hack saw was easier to keep straight & I didn't get the melting like a dremel.
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  #294  
Old 08-22-2007, 07:29 AM
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This will be the hottest gift idea this Christmas !

Looks much better good job.
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  #295  
Old 08-22-2007, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Palantirion View Post
-And they would be willing to custom map to products they don't sell?
I'm sure you could get some "consultations" from them for a fee. HPF might be able to help too. I doubt they would do the thing for you, but maybe give you some coding tips.
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  #296  
Old 08-22-2007, 10:00 AM
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Palantirion Palantirion is offline
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Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
Nice job..

FWIW, I did basically the same thing, except;
After trying the Dremel, I used a hacksaw with a fine blade.

Hack saw was easier to keep straight & I didn't get the melting like a dremel.
-I tried a hacksaw, but my blade was too wiggly and I worried I might lose my grip on the lens as I was cutting, because of the added torque once the blade bit through. I probably just needed a different blade and increased tension. I did some practice cuts with the Dremel in the waste area of the lens first to see if the melting would be the bad kind or the good kind. Turned out it's quite controllable, unlike some plastics I've cut in the past. I also tried a slow metal-cutting bandsaw, but the round shape kept slipping and there was no easy way to clamp it

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROM3N View Post
This will be the hottest gift idea this Christmas !

Looks much better good job.
-Definitely! It's a fantastic idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dammmittt View Post
I'm sure you could get some "consultations" from them for a fee. HPF might be able to help too. I doubt they would do the thing for you, but maybe give you some coding tips.
-HPF is another shop I'm going to inquire at. I was (to my surprise, remember I'm harsh and skeptical!) very impressed with Chris's (HPF Chris, as opposed to BMS Chris I'm usually talking about) blown E46 M3 at Bimmerfest. It's nauseatingly fast and after 30 or so runs (in front of me) it still idled smoothly, and in all ways seemed stock...until you hit the loud pedal.
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  #297  
Old 08-25-2007, 06:02 PM
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Palantirion Palantirion is offline
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Update:
Chris has ordered a CF roof from TCK for my Coupe. If TCK's estimate is correct, it should be in our possession in about two weeks.
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  #298  
Old 08-25-2007, 09:46 PM
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DAMN YOU!!! AHHHH The more people have those things the more jealous I get. Christmas cannot come soon enough!!!

Oh well...it'll look great man. I'm sure you've seen sixspeed's already...
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  #299  
Old 08-26-2007, 05:12 AM
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Palantirion Palantirion is offline
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DAMN YOU!!! AHHHH The more people have those things the more jealous I get. Christmas cannot come soon enough!!!

Oh well...it'll look great man. I'm sure you've seen sixspeed's already...
-Hmmm, I may have missed it. Do you have a link?
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  #300  
Old 08-26-2007, 05:44 AM
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Umm, you posted in the thread a few days ago, over on zpost.
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