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E82 / E88 1 Series (2008 - 2013)
BMWs throw back to the iconic 2002, with a renewed form and function. The smallest car in BMW's line up but still packs a punch. Available in coupe or convertible, powered by either an inline 6 in the 128 or the twin turbo rocket sled 135.

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  #51  
Old 11-13-2007, 09:42 AM
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Chris90 Chris90 is offline
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That's a bit like arguing there's no point in an expensive Swiss watch when a fake Rolex keeps just as good time. People pay a premium for a high-tech engine that makes incredible sounds. It's not all about performance or functionality when you're talking about objects of desire.
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  #52  
Old 11-13-2007, 01:21 PM
Needagarage Needagarage is offline
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Originally Posted by Dawg90 View Post
That's a bit like arguing there's no point in an expensive Swiss watch when a fake Rolex keeps just as good time. People pay a premium for a high-tech engine that makes incredible sounds. It's not all about performance or functionality when you're talking about objects of desire.
I believe I said it didn't matter if you had more money than brains. People aren't buying it because it performs so well. They are buying(leasing) it because it costs a lot of money and has an aura of "status". Welcome to the BMW of the 21st century!

There is simply no reason to slap a very expensive engine into the M3 if power was their requirement. But when you are charging 60K+ for a car it better have some damn impressive acronyms in the engine bay!
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  #53  
Old 11-13-2007, 06:41 PM
BlackJetE90 BlackJetE90 is offline
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Originally Posted by Needagarage View Post
There is simply no reason to slap a very expensive engine into the M3 if power was their requirement. But when you are charging 60K+ for a car it better have some damn impressive acronyms in the engine bay!
It's easy to see that they didn't slap a 4.0 liter engine into a M3 just for more power. They could have easily made more power with larger displacement. But that wasn't their goal.

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Originally Posted by Needagarage View Post
Everyone seems to be so interested in the HP/liter value when that only matters in a world where every other variable is ignored. I would argue that the weight, size and the COST of the engine are all all important if not more important. A "brute force muscle car engine" is comparable in weight and size while enjoying MORE power for LESS money. The only reason to go with the high tech engine is if you really have more money than brains or absolutely need to rev to 8K.
You obviously have no clue why they make a high-revving motor, with a smaller displacement. You think they do it for the hell of it?

When you drive on the limit, a higher revving engine allows the driver to more finely adjust the torque to the rear wheels. It gives more sensitivity. 85% of the torque is available across a 6500 rpm rev range. All this is essential when going around corners, something the GTO sucks at.

The new M3 is actually greener and more economical than the previous E46 M3(straight six).

Last edited by BlackJetE90; 11-13-2007 at 06:44 PM.
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  #54  
Old 11-14-2007, 09:50 AM
Needagarage Needagarage is offline
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No one mentioned the GTO is any good at turning. The stock suspension has many flaws but can be improved without too much money or trouble. The big problem is the 3750 pounds. But since the M3 is going to weigh 3650lbs it is going to be comparable.

The point of the conversation is that the American LS2 cannot be disregarded as some inefficient lump of metal. While you argue that the M3 engine is more efficient because it gets 420hp/4liters, I am measuring efficiency by stating that HP/weight or HP/dollar makes the LS2 the clear victor.

There is NO point to a high revving engine. You do want a flat torque curve but the RPMs are unneccesary. Ff you want to improve the torque curve and greatly increase the power of the LS2 some simple breathing mods like an intake, headers and cam will flatten out the curve past the 5000RPM drop off suffered by a stock motor.

While the M3 generates its flat torque curve over a wider RPM range that is the point of gearing. Due to the M3's 100ft/lb deficiency, you will have to shift more often where the LS2 will be able to dig its way out of a turn without needing the shift.

The only reason that F1 cars and some race cars use small, high reving engines is because the rules mandate a displacement limit.
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Old 11-14-2007, 04:32 PM
BlackJetE90 BlackJetE90 is offline
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Originally Posted by Needagarage View Post
No one mentioned the GTO is any good at turning. The stock suspension has many flaws but can be improved without too much money or trouble. The big problem is the 3750 pounds. But since the M3 is going to weigh 3650lbs it is going to be comparable.

The point of the conversation is that the American LS2 cannot be disregarded as some inefficient lump of metal.
When you drive on the limit, a higher revving engine allows the driver to more finely adjust the torque to the rear wheels. It gives more sensitivity. 85% of the torque is available across a 6500 rpm rev range. All this is essential when going around corners, something the GTO sucks at.

I wasn't referring to suspension in my comment.

Car & Driver states: "As a result of that high redline, the M3 can fly though a turn in second gear where most cars need third."

The high revving nature allows the driver more feel when getting the power down, from the apex and coming out of the turn.

High revving engines (ones that still make peak power up top to be exact) are beneficial because they allow you to run shorter gearing thereby multiplying the available torque from a relatively small engine. This is possible because the engine is able to rev high enough that the gears are still long and don't drop power below the power band on the next shift.

To say there are no benefits from a high revving engine, is ridiculous. From your posts you seem to think BMW only creates low displacement high revving engines so they can charge more. Trust me that is not their intentions, there is a method behind their madness.

The same was said about the RX8 and its high revving rotary engine. The mag testers loved it and its 9,000 redline.

Please show me where I stated: "American LS2 can be disregarded as some inefficient lump of metal."

I was responding to your comment about buying a GTO instead of and M3 because the M3 is only a drag car now, because it has 250lbs more weight than the previous M3. That is a ridiculous statement.

I said putting a big V8 into a crappy car like the GTO is not answer. But putting a big V8 into a car like the Z06 is the answer, awesome car.

I have absolutely nothing against GM, if I told you who my grandfather was, you wouldn't believe me, let's just say he worked for GM in their heyday. I love nothing more than to see the Vettes dominate at Le Mans.
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