135 vs EVO

[QUOTE=germanblood;3197846][QUOTE=superstock;3195879]
The "purists" are famous at Porsche because of their affinity for air cooled engines but at least they back up their conviction with their pocketbooks. A 1996 Carrera is worth more than a 2000 because of that purity. Do people flock to 2004 330s because they are better than 2008's? Did the value of them go up? No, it went down and will continue to go down to zero. Why? Because they arent' special or pretty or exclusive or even that great of a car. They are just a standard BMW.

Originally Posted by superstock

I'm sorry, but your take on the late model E46s is just waaaay off. My last 330Ci 6spd was an almost perfect daily driver that still allowed me to have a lot of fun. Miata over a late model E46? - you are on the wrong board dude! The E46 has a way smoother and torqier engine, a better chassis, way better looks, and better steering feel. No contest.

I am sure it was a perfect daily driver but it isn't special, rare, exotic or desireable in any way that an air cooled porsche is. In 10 years your car won't be worth the rubber it's rolling on.

I am not arguing that a Miata is better in every way than an E46, just more fun as a daily driver. Not more practical, faster or better looking. But definitely more fun handling. Ultimate grip/skidpad does not measure handling fun. A lightweight chassis and short wheel base helps that. And yes, the new miata's suspension does need some work to restore the steering feel. They made it a bit more floaty and soft. A $250 set of springs fixes it.

Originally Posted by superstock

Three reasons:

The real world difference is more like 3-4k.

I take full grown people in my backseat occasionally, not just circus midgets. 3 inches isn't a large difference but it is in the most important spot, knee room.

Difference in leg room is 1.7". Which does not equal 3 inches.

135i has 0.3" more rear headroom, 1.5" more rear shoulder room, and 2.0 more cubic feet of cargo capacity.

Please show us real world difference of $3-4k, cause when I try to compare the two, I get a $5200 difference (both cars with premium & sport package).

Originally Posted by superstock

The Z4M is definitely very close to my definition of a sports car but the plethora of luxury options pushes into into the soft sports car. I honestly forgot abou the Z4M but no one can claim it is a focused sports car. It is a very good dual purpose car in that it can coddle you and perform admirably at the track. While it is definitely capable of some serious performance it is still way too heavy and is still dulled in a way that only a 3000+lb car can be.

BMW long ago forgot that the best way to add performance is to add lightness.

So, by your definition, no current Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, Corvette, S2000, etc, etc is a sports car! Interesting. A video for you to watch, as I don't think you have any idea what driving a Z4M is like:

I have driven the Boxster and S2000, I own a Z4M roadster, it is by far the rawest sports car of the 3.

Between my deal, and an equally equipped 335i was more like 5k+ (almost 6). Even if you got a deal with the 3 series, it'd still be 4k+ more.

A majority of the people I've talked to getting the 1 series, WON'T have people in their backseat. No one is trying to say that it'd be comfortable to ride in the back, however as Chris90 mentioned, the back seat is bigger in pretty much every way BUT leg room. Besides, an inch and a half isn't that much.

The point is, you guys are pulling at straws to try to bash this car. As soon as one argument is discredited you just move on to a different topic. So I'll be interested to hear about how the stock rims look on it or something..It seems to me that those who are bashing the 1 series seem "burned" by it. I've hardly seen anyone say "meh" to the car. They either love it or hate it.

If you hate the 1 series so much, you're in the wrong forum. The 3 series forum is down one more.

Originally Posted by InsaneSkippy

If you hate the 1 series so much, you're in the wrong forum. The 3 series forum is down one more.

+1

Originally Posted by superstock

I am sure it was a perfect daily driver but it isn't special, rare, exotic or desireable in any way that an air cooled porsche is. In 10 years your car won't be worth the rubber it's rolling on.

Sorry, but where I live, everyone isn't driving around in Lambos, Ferraris, Aston Martins, Porsches, Paganis, or Koenigseggs- and I live in one of the wealthiest counties in the world. Where most of the people in this world can't even afford a car, a BMW is certainly special. Heck, even in the parking lot at my work where guys own Evos, WRXs, Benzes, Bimmers, and Porsches, my M3 is considered to be special by my peers. I don't beleive a car has to be $80 grand and up to be considered special or desireable. Lastly, I couldn't care less what my cars are worth in ten years because I only keep them for two years or less.

Originally Posted by InsaneSkippy

Between my deal, and an equally equipped 335i was more like 5k+ (almost 6). Even if you got a deal with the 3 series, it'd still be 4k+ more.

A majority of the people I've talked to getting the 1 series, WON'T have people in their backseat. No one is trying to say that it'd be comfortable to ride in the back, however as Chris90 mentioned, the back seat is bigger in pretty much every way BUT leg room. Besides, an inch and a half isn't that much.

The point is, you guys are pulling at straws to try to bash this car. As soon as one argument is discredited you just move on to a different topic. So I'll be interested to hear about how the stock rims look on it or something..It seems to me that those who are bashing the 1 series seem "burned" by it. I've hardly seen anyone say "meh" to the car. They either love it or hate it.

If you hate the 1 series so much, you're in the wrong forum. The 3 series forum is down one more.

335 with montego blue, leather, sport package = 39.7k ED (45K MSRP)
135 with montego blue, leather, power seats, sport package = 37k ED (39.5K MSRP)

Those are actual quoted prices from this week. Less than 3k in real world.

Dimensionally the backseat is not very different but the layout is much better in the 3 series. There is a deeper scoop so you have more headroom and your knees don't contact the front seat. With the front seat passenger knee's touching the dash the backseat passengers were also jammed against the back. There are tradeoffs in turning a 3 door hatch into a coupe in both packaging and styling. You also lose the center armrest and instead BMW gives you a piece of foam that simply falls out and lays worthlessly between the seats.

I am not "pulling at straws" since these are all valid arguments against spending nearly 40k on a small 4 seater. If you ignore the BMW badge then you can get several cars that can offers 90% of the 1 series experience at 60-70% of the price. There is a reason that BMW is only bring over 10k cars and it isn't because the 1 series is going to be a runaway success. More like a minimal flop. And the worst thing is with exchange rates like they are BMW probably only makes a pittance on each one.

Originally Posted by germanblood

Sorry, but where I live, everyone isn't driving around in Lambos, Ferraris, Aston Martins, Porsches, Paganis, or Koenigseggs- and I live in one of the wealthiest counties in the world. Where most of the people in this world can't even afford a car, a BMW is certainly special. Heck, even in the parking lot at my work where guys own Evos, WRXs, Benzes, Bimmers, and Porsches, my M3 is considered to be special by my peers. I don't beleive a car has to be $80 grand and up to be considered special or desireable. Lastly, I couldn't care less what my cars are worth in ten years because I only keep them for two years or less.

No, you are right. It doens't have to be exotic or worth 80k to be special. But it can't be a BMW. They are as thick as fleas in many areas. Hell, a 1994 Honda Del Sol or 1986 Toyota MR-2 will turn my head before an E46 M3. They blend into the sea of BMWs and BMW imitators.

If it was an e30 M3, perhaps. But e46 M3? Too common. Unless of course it was red with red leather. Then it would be too ugly to miss.

Originally Posted by jsc

I have driven the Boxster and S2000, I own a Z4M roadster, it is by far the rawest sports car of the 3.

I am a masochist. Any sports car should punish you to some point. Lotus Elise. Unfortunately those with the money for a very fast sports car want all the nice bits and pieces. I think there is a market for a mid 20k's lightweight sports car. No need for anything beside cloth, rwd, 2600lbs, and 200hp. This car will never ever come out of Germany. More likely Japanese or German.

Originally Posted by superstock

I am a masochist. Any sports car should punish you to some point. Lotus Elise. Unfortunately those with the money for a very fast sports car want all the nice bits and pieces. I think there is a market for a mid 20k's lightweight sports car. No need for anything beside cloth, rwd, 2600lbs, and 200hp. This car will never ever come out of Germany. More likely Japanese or German.

Why not go all the way? The mid-engined roadster in my signature should be about 650kg (1450 lbs) with 200bhp when I get round to completing it. The Elise has also been bloated over the years, ballooning from just over 700kg for the original S1 to 900kg for the current incarnation. I put in an offer on a clearance 2007 Elise for close to the same price I bought my new 2007 Z4M Roadster for, wasn't accepted, so the Z4M ended up being cheaper. The Elise 190 actually rides very similarly to a Z4M, possibly a little softer, has similar acceleration, but is slower around most tracks. It is a bit noisier (Z4M is not quiet, though). The Elise has better steering feel, but is less forgiving in handling on the limit and can't do power slides nearly as well as the Z4M can.

All in all the Z4M and Elise 190 are close in performance, similar punishing suspension, similar track times, similar ground clearance (diagonal over most speed bumps is recommended). Both are real sports cars, both to me are daily drivers and would both be driven in the snow too with winter tyres (my Z4M has excellent snow traction due to the ///M diff, but it does push snow with the front spoiler).

Originally Posted by superstock

No, you are right. It doens't have to be exotic or worth 80k to be special. But it can't be a BMW. They are as thick as fleas in many areas. Hell, a 1994 Honda Del Sol or 1986 Toyota MR-2 will turn my head before an E46 M3. They blend into the sea of BMWs and BMW imitators.

If it was an e30 M3, perhaps. But e46 M3? Too common. Unless of course it was red with red leather. Then it would be too ugly to miss.

LOL! I think I'm actually starting to like you, even though you feel that you feel that you have been chosen to be the decider of what is a good car and what is garbage.

Originally Posted by jsc

Why not go all the way? The mid-engined roadster in my signature should be about 650kg (1450 lbs) with 200bhp when I get round to completing it. The Elise has also been bloated over the years, ballooning from just over 700kg for the original S1 to 900kg for the current incarnation. I put in an offer on a clearance 2007 Elise for close to the same price I bought my new 2007 Z4M Roadster for, wasn't accepted, so the Z4M ended up being cheaper. The Elise 190 actually rides very similarly to a Z4M, possibly a little softer, has similar acceleration, but is slower around most tracks. It is a bit noisier (Z4M is not quiet, though). The Elise has better steering feel, but is less forgiving in handling on the limit and can't do power slides nearly as well as the Z4M can.

All in all the Z4M and Elise 190 are close in performance, similar punishing suspension, similar track times, similar ground clearance (diagonal over most speed bumps is recommended). Both are real sports cars, both to me are daily drivers and would both be driven in the snow too with winter tyres (my Z4M has excellent snow traction due to the ///M diff, but it does push snow with the front spoiler).

I haven't driven a Z4M coupe, just the roadster so I am not sure which you have. The car is like an old muscle car in that it has ridiculous power and can quickly kill you if you aren't aware of what is happening. It is definitely something i would look into buying used eventually. I came close to getting a few Z3Ms with the same engine but never really liked the look. The Z4m has grown on me much more.

The only thing is that I like the Elise powerband and that frentic cam at the top of the revs. I like taking an engine way out to redline and in the Z4M the gearing is setup for the autobahn in that you run out of road before power. I also like the spartan interior and tiny wheel that makes you muscle it. In the Elise you never forget you are in a balls to the wall sports car. The Z4M can take it easy. That is very good but when I am in racing mode (on a track) I like the directness of the Elise. To each his own.

That being said I do not YET own one but it is only a matter of time. It is either the Elise or build myself a Lotus 7 clone from a miata. A buddy has one and it is beyond words. Being able to watch your suspension is a giddy thrill.

What is the car you are building going to be eventually?

Originally Posted by superstock

335 with montego blue, leather, sport package = 39.7k ED (45K MSRP)
135 with montego blue, leather, power seats, sport package = 37k ED (39.5K MSRP)

Those are actual quoted prices from this week. Less than 3k in real world.

Dimensionally the backseat is not very different but the layout is much better in the 3 series. There is a deeper scoop so you have more headroom and your knees don't contact the front seat. With the front seat passenger knee's touching the dash the backseat passengers were also jammed against the back. There are tradeoffs in turning a 3 door hatch into a coupe in both packaging and styling. You also lose the center armrest and instead BMW gives you a piece of foam that simply falls out and lays worthlessly between the seats.

I am not "pulling at straws" since these are all valid arguments against spending nearly 40k on a small 4 seater. If you ignore the BMW badge then you can get several cars that can offers 90% of the 1 series experience at 60-70% of the price. There is a reason that BMW is only bring over 10k cars and it isn't because the 1 series is going to be a runaway success. More like a minimal flop. And the worst thing is with exchange rates like they are BMW probably only makes a pittance on each one.

Like I said, the difference is $5-6k - negotiated discounts mean nothing, not everyone is going to your dealership and your salesman (if your numbers are even real).

It is kind of fun to shoot down every one of your points though.

Originally Posted by superstock

The Z4M is definitely very close to my definition of a sports car but the plethora of luxury options pushes into into the soft sports car. I honestly forgot abou the Z4M but no one can claim it is a focused sports car. It is a very good dual purpose car in that it can coddle you and perform admirably at the track. While it is definitely capable of some serious performance it is still way too heavy and is still dulled in a way that only a 3000+lb car can be.

BMW long ago forgot that the best way to add performance is to add lightness.

Long ago? How long ago was the M3 CSL? Didn't seem too long ago.
Note: OPTIONS. Nobody forces you to buy the car with options. The Z4 M in base form is a very elemental and focused sports car. Evo magazine found it to be a more thrilling and fun drive than the Boxster S. So maybe the Boxster S isn't a focused sports car either?
In the same issue, they tested a Miata with the Eibach sport spring kit available as an option from dealers. Lowers the car 35mm and firms it up. But they still found a lack of steering feel, "poor body control and a general feeling that you're not really driving a sports car at all." So this certainly goes beyond a simple spring kit. There is a fundamental change in engineering that has caused the Miata to lose much of its driving dynamics compared to earlier versions, and puts it squarely within reach of "badge" convertibles.
In light of the M Roadster beating out the Boxster for visceral thrills, it seems pretty clear that BMW does in fact make a properly focused sports car.
TopGear tested a lower-spec Z4 (non-M) against the Miata and found its 40% premium fully justified. The Miata's quality wasn't even in the same arena, and it lacked the BMW's solidness and smooth engine. It lacked the driving feel and involvement of the Z4.
Also, check out Evo's Car of the Year 2005 issue where the Miata placed dead last out of 13 everyday cars. An appalling 11 points (on a 100-point scale) behind the next lowest car, the Corvette. A BMW 130i M Sport placed 9th (+14 points over the Miata), while the E6 M3 CS placed 2nd in the group (+21 points over the Miata). The 130i brought with it the baggage of 3 extra seats and 2 extra doors, yet was still a more absorbing drive than the Miata.

Originally Posted by superstock

Hell, a 1994 Honda Del Sol or 1986 Toyota MR-2 will turn my head before an E46 M3.

Originally Posted by InsaneSkippy

If you hate the 1 series so much, you're in the wrong forum. The 3 series forum is down one more.

No worries, he's been there (rarely).
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...30#post3127030

Originally Posted by Chris90

Like I said, the difference is $5-6k - negotiated discounts mean nothing, not everyone is going to your dealership and your salesman (if your numbers are even real).

It is kind of fun to shoot down every one of your points though.

It is funny.

This kid doesn't stand a chance against you.


Plus he is arguing for a raw sports car. So he contradicts himself by adding "power seats" to the 135i price minimizing the price difference as much as possible.

No matter how you option it, you are looking at a ~$5000 savings, for better performance.

Originally Posted by superstock

I fail to see what I drive making a huge difference in the vaildity of my argument but I have an E36 M3 coupe, 2007 Miata and 2005 Jeep Rubicon for daily driving, depending on the weather. My project car right now is an 1984 DeTomaso Pantera GTs. Just finishing the cosmetic work but the American V8 they came with is builtproof and the car is much much much cheaper to drive and maintain than an other italian exotic (Lambo, Ferrari, etc) so you can actually enjoy it. Fast and fantastic sounding.

So yes, taken in whole, i do drive the perfect car(s). I have a vehicle for any need that may come up. One car cannot do everything you want and to try is ridiculous.

UH-OH

I caught you in a lie.

This is why what you drive makes a difference. Because you own a 335i.

These quotes below are from "superstock" himself in the E90/E91/E92/E93 forum.

Originally Posted by superstock

Those are very very good numbers, Dinan or not. Those are equivalent to what my friends are getting with 400+ HP GTOs. When I went to ATCO in New Jersey the best I could get out of my manual 335 was a 14.0. I am not a drag racer in the least but I agree with the RFT comment and the auto. A 335 sedan with wider rear summer tires and an auto (no other mods) was in the mid 13's with no problem.

Of course just jamming on the accelerator is a lot easier than actually shifting. Which is why most drag racers go for automatics of course.

FYI:While 12.9 seems fast, a C5 automatic Corvetter with just a catback can run 12.8 all day. BMW is still not a drag car and never will be.(Hopefully)

Originally Posted by superstock

Is it a whole rear bumper or just some type of insert? I already have damage to the rear bumper from someone backing into me and the front bumper from stones so this might be a good upgrade. The quote to fix my paint front and back was $900 so i might as well just double it and get the new parts.

I knew you were just another jealous 335i owner.

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

UH-OH

I caught you in a lie.

This is why what you drive makes a difference. Because you own a 335i.

These quotes below are from "superstock" himself in the E90/E91/E92/E93 forum.

I knew you were just another jealous 335i owner.

What a putz.

Originally Posted by Needagarage

I haven't driven a Z4M coupe, just the roadster so I am not sure which you have. The car is like an old muscle car in that it has ridiculous power and can quickly kill you if you aren't aware of what is happening. It is definitely something i would look into buying used eventually. I came close to getting a few Z3Ms with the same engine but never really liked the look. The Z4m has grown on me much more.

The only thing is that I like the Elise powerband and that frentic cam at the top of the revs. I like taking an engine way out to redline and in the Z4M the gearing is setup for the autobahn in that you run out of road before power. I also like the spartan interior and tiny wheel that makes you muscle it. In the Elise you never forget you are in a balls to the wall sports car. The Z4M can take it easy. That is very good but when I am in racing mode (on a track) I like the directness of the Elise. To each his own.

That being said I do not YET own one but it is only a matter of time. It is either the Elise or build myself a Lotus 7 clone from a miata. A buddy has one and it is beyond words. Being able to watch your suspension is a giddy thrill.

What is the car you are building going to be eventually?

I was close to getting the Elise, as it was a coin toss between the Elise and the Z4M, but the nearest Lotus dealer is 1000km away (although they do send techs out for service every couple of months to Calgary). I also was finding it difficult to find the right size in winter tyres and wheels for the Elise (although the Z4M was difficult too).

In the end, the Elise was also getting a little close to the project car.

The project car is actually an all aluminium mid-engined roadster of my own design. It uses a 1995 Mazda MX-3 1.8L V6 drivetrain (only 35,000km on it) to drive the rear wheels in a mid-engined layout, I plan to add an Eaton supercharger to push it to 200bhp. The structure is all Al 6061-T6 welded tubing with Al 5052-O32 sheeting. Took me about 2 years to machine all the suspension components (about 300 pieces), overall the most time consuming part of the project. I haven't done anything on it for about a year due to current time constraints, but it is currently a rolling chassis that I'm part way through plumbing the electrical, cooling and fuel systems, still needs about 300 more hours in this area. After that it will take me about 500 hours to form the body sheet metal over the spaceframe, but hopefully this summer I can free up 50 hours or so a month to continue the work.

Originally Posted by Chris90

What a putz.

+1
The truth finally comes out!!!!!

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

UH-OH

I caught you in a lie.

This is why what you drive makes a difference. Because you own a 335i.

These quotes below are from "superstock" himself in the E90/E91/E92/E93 forum.

I knew you were just another jealous 335i owner.

LMFAOWNED!

He could have "owned" one before and sold it...

So he says he owns a M3:

Originally Posted by superstock

I fail to see what I drive making a huge difference in the validity of my argument but I have an E36 M3 coupe

but this post contradicts that:

Originally Posted by superstock

M3. If it made more financial sense I would buy one. Definitely a more fun car.

Which is it? M3 or 335i?

So superstock has an E36 M3 coupe and a 335i, but he wants an E46 M3.

Or else he made all that up, and drives a Mazda 626?

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

UH-OH

I caught you in a lie.

This is why what you drive makes a difference. Because you own a 335i.

These quotes below are from "superstock" himself in the E90/E91/E92/E93 forum.






I knew you were just another jealous 335i owner.

OWNED is the operative word. I no longer OWN a 335. I did but got rid of it. The European Delivery was too good of an offer to pass up. I bought the car for 39.7k. Sold it for 39k. 8000 miles for 700 bucks is impossible to pass up. If the car was better than I would have kept it. It wasn't. And the 135 is not what I am looking for either and it also does not have the large European Delivery discount that made the 335 attractive in the first place.

The ONLY reason you should buy a new BMW is to get the screaming deal of the European Delivery. You buy the "hot" new car at a large discount, drive for a couple months and then sell it to some BMW badge whore. They think they are getting a great deal because they are saving 5k off sticker. You get a great deal by not having to pay anything besides the tax.

I bought my DeTamso Pantera with the 335 money. It is a fun and exotic car that is still light and any depreciation was long ago.

Originally Posted by Chris90

So superstock has an E36 M3 coupe and a 335i, but he wants an E46 M3.

Or else he made all that up, and drives a Mazda 626?

Have the E36 M3, the miata and the pantera. Owned the 335 but ditched it for reasons that many people have mentioned.

I have no desire for an E46 M3 unless I could turn around and sell it for more than i bought it for.