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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 09-15-2009, 09:38 AM
cn90 cn90 is offline
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The Importance of Priming Oil Filter at Oil Change

Ever wonder how long to kill an engine without oil?

This is a nice experiment "Engine Demolition 101 (No Oil)" by students mechanics:
http://forums.speedguide.net/showthread.php?t=208704

-------------
QUOTE: "At first everything appeared to be normal. For over two minutes, the engine ran along at high rpm without any obvious damage. I thought it would have failed by now. Then suddenly it began to slow down. This was a sign of bearings seizing on crankshafts and pistons sticking in the cylinders. The engine ran slower and slower and the crowd started to think this was a dud. Then BANG!.......

Steam from coolant and some smoke from hot oily parts started to seep from the fender gaps but the engine continued to run, and run, and run, and run. The five-minute mark passed. Finally, the engine started to make more clanking noises and the rpm started to surge. At the 5 minute, 41 second mark, it gave its last gasp as it dramatically shuddered to a stop and flames erupted in the engine compartment. Smoke billowed and the fire brigade was called into service, spraying the extinguishers into the grille opening and up from the bottom to quell the flames (never open the hood with an engine fire). It was over, almost."

----------------

Personally, I think the engine bearing damage happens well before the 60-second mark of no oil and manifest at about 2 minutes (120-second time).

Normal start up is different, at a normal start in the morning, oil starvation lasts about 1-2 seconds. The BMW Oil Filter HOUSING design prevents draining of oil from the HOUSING, which is nice.

For other cars, the Anti-drainback Valve is important only in engine with oil filter mounted upward (in this case, Anti-drainback Valve prevents oil draining out of the oil filter itself, it is not perfect Valve but can happen). But the Upward mount of Oil Filter is going away, thanks to engineers better thinking over the years.
This is why when you look at any modern cars (made after 1995 ---> engine oil filter is almost always mounted upside down to prevent oil draining out.
Even engineers learn over the years....
--------------

Now the $1M question: Just curious for those of you who don't want dry start........How do you guys disable the Electronic Ignition (the easy way) so you can crank for let's say 10 seconds w/o starting the engine?
Which Fuse or Relay of Electronic Ignition do you remove?
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  #2  
Old 09-15-2009, 09:48 AM
oembimmerparts oembimmerparts is offline
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Unless you just stand around for 30 minutes after you pour the oil in its pretty much a moot point, Oil is running down the engine parts from having 6 quarts dumped into it, The bearing will still have oil on them at the crank. Unless you start it up and stand on the gas I can not see it having any affect at all.
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  #3  
Old 09-15-2009, 10:03 AM
Ryan M Ryan M is offline
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I always pour a quart into the filter housing itself, that way when the engine is started that one quart will be sucked into the motor until oil pressure is built and it starts drawing from the pan. I never get any ticking on startup after changing my oil, not even for a split second.
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  #4  
Old 09-15-2009, 10:33 AM
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bmw_n00b13 bmw_n00b13 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cn90;4519608ngineers learn over the years....:)
--------------

[B
Now the $1M question:[/B] Just curious for those of you who don't want dry start........How do you guys disable the Electronic Ignition (the easy way) so you can crank for let's say 10 seconds w/o starting the engine?
Which Fuse or Relay of Electronic Ignition do you remove?
It's easy enough with the High OBC; set a "code" that needs to be entered, remove the key, and then replace the key and attempt to start without inputting the code; the engine will crank without fuel or spark. IMHO it's worse for an engine to do that then to run for 3 seconds without oil.
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  #5  
Old 09-15-2009, 11:48 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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I'll add some of this information to the extraction oil change DIY

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  #6  
Old 09-15-2009, 01:20 PM
Ryan M Ryan M is offline
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^^^^^^^^How long was the interval between filter changes? Even at extended oil change intervals, the paper filter is still supposed to be changed at 3,000 miles.
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  #7  
Old 09-15-2009, 01:36 PM
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bmw_n00b13 bmw_n00b13 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan M View Post
^^^^^^^^How long was the interval between filter changes? Even at extended oil change intervals, the paper filter is still supposed to be changed at 3,000 miles.
Not BMW filter paper. It's lifetime paper…..

My grandfather got about 30,000km on his car due to driving style before his first oil change . I changed his oil recently at 15,000 km and the filter was…..toast. It stuck to the top as well. Was going to send in a sample for analysis but he threw it out…..

Edit: He bought the car with the oil indicator reset, but it had 100k km on it at the time. (I'm hoping it was Inspection II***8230
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Last edited by bmw_n00b13; 09-15-2009 at 02:07 PM.
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  #8  
Old 09-15-2009, 01:38 PM
Ryan M Ryan M is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_n00b13 View Post
Not BMW filter paper. It's lifetime paper….

My grandfather got about 30,000km on his car due to driving style before his first oil change . I changed his oil recently at 15,000 km and the filter was….toast. It stuck to the top as well. Was going to send in a sample for analysis but he threw it out….
Ahhhh, the old lifetime filter. lol.
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  #9  
Old 09-15-2009, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan M View Post
I always pour a quart into the filter housing itself, that way when the engine is started that one quart will be sucked into the motor until oil pressure is built and it starts drawing from the pan. I never get any ticking on startup after changing my oil, not even for a split second.
A theory needs to start with a solid basis...if the originating premise is faulty...then there won't be a logical conclusion.

The oil filter on the m62/m62tu/m52/m52tu/m54 is at the TOP of the loop that the oil travels. When the oil leaves the oil filter reservoir...it drains directly back into the oil pan (not the engine).

That's why it is not necessary to pour oil into the oil filter reservoir (but you can do it if it's your preference...I doubt that it hurts the engine). The oil is not going to be sucked back into the motor when you crank the engine after doing an oil change. The oil is going to drain directly back to the oil pan...so all that effort is sort of in vain if your reason for doing it was that you thought it would flow to the engine to help prevent "dry" start-up.

The one thing that we know is occurring when 1 quart of oil is poured into the reservoir is that the pan has 1 quart less oil to draw from until that trapped quart in the reservoir flows back to the pan.
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2006 E53 X5 4.4i (Sterling Gray) 12/05 mfg date <<~>> 97 740iL (Arctic Silver) 3/97 mfg date
(SOLD)
99 540iT (Orient Blue) <<~>> 95 525IT (Alpine White)
91 735iL (Schwarz Black) <<~>> 85 325e (Bronzit)

http://imageshack.com/scaled/grid240/822/e38e532ndsigpic.jpg

Last edited by QSilver7; 09-15-2009 at 03:22 PM.
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  #10  
Old 09-15-2009, 03:24 PM
Ryan M Ryan M is offline
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I don't see how that's possible. The oil is drawn from the oil pump pickup in the oil pan, sent through the oil filter, and into the oil galleries. How could pouring oil into the housing not send some oil to the engine?
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  #11  
Old 09-15-2009, 03:51 PM
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Then perhaps I have it wrong ...in the image below of the M62...you can see two hoses going from the oil filter reservoir to the motor...one is the inlet pressure hose (#5 in the diagram), and the other is the outlet pressure hose (#6 in the diagram). What we don't see in the pic is the oil pipe outlet (#15 in the diagram) that goes back to the pan (see diagram)

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2006 E53 X5 4.4i (Sterling Gray) 12/05 mfg date <<~>> 97 740iL (Arctic Silver) 3/97 mfg date
(SOLD)
99 540iT (Orient Blue) <<~>> 95 525IT (Alpine White)
91 735iL (Schwarz Black) <<~>> 85 325e (Bronzit)

http://imageshack.com/scaled/grid240/822/e38e532ndsigpic.jpg
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  #12  
Old 09-15-2009, 03:55 PM
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bmw_n00b13 bmw_n00b13 is offline
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never mind.
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  #13  
Old 09-15-2009, 04:08 PM
Ryan M Ryan M is offline
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Qsilver,
I'm not saying that all the oil goes to the motor, but some definately does. I have done comparisons between pouring oil only into the valve cover (where I get ticking for about 2 seconds on startup) and pouring one quart into the filter housing (where I get 0 ticking or noises of any kind). Just some food for thought.
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Old 09-15-2009, 06:53 PM
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QSilver7 QSilver7 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan M View Post
Qsilver,
I'm not saying that all the oil goes to the motor, but some definately does. I have done comparisons between pouring oil only into the valve cover (where I get ticking for about 2 seconds on startup) and pouring one quart into the filter housing (where I get 0 ticking or noises of any kind). Just some food for thought.
Just to be clear...I see that point...by there being 2 outlet hoses and 1 inlet hose...apparently not all of the oil drains back to the pan.

I love these discussions when something new is learned.
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2006 E53 X5 4.4i (Sterling Gray) 12/05 mfg date <<~>> 97 740iL (Arctic Silver) 3/97 mfg date
(SOLD)
99 540iT (Orient Blue) <<~>> 95 525IT (Alpine White)
91 735iL (Schwarz Black) <<~>> 85 325e (Bronzit)

http://imageshack.com/scaled/grid240/822/e38e532ndsigpic.jpg
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  #15  
Old 09-15-2009, 07:12 PM
Ryan M Ryan M is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QSilver7 View Post
Just to be clear...I see that point...by there being 2 outlet hoses and 1 inlet hose...apparently not all of the oil drains back to the pan.

I love these discussions when something new is learned.
It sure beats a "what is the best (insert part here) for my car" thread. Getting very tired of those. I don't even respond to them anymore.
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Old 09-16-2009, 08:32 AM
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Ryan, clarify please. I think you pour the oil into the empty reservoir, not into the reservoir with the new filter in it?

It would make sense to me that the benefit will be in soaking the new dry filter and saturate it with the new oil. It seems logical that a new dry filter will take more time before it will transfer the new pumped oil through it and into the engine.

Secondly, if you place the new filter into the reservoir, and then pour oil into it, will all the oil freely flow into the engine or into the oil pan? (I don't remember how it goes inside there). I am asking because I know that the filter will block one of the hoses.

mw
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Old 09-16-2009, 09:07 AM
cn90 cn90 is offline
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QSilver7, Thanks for the pic of your V8 Oil Filter.

For Inline 6 engine, same idea, oil flows upward (red arrows), through filter element, down into the center channel (blue) into engine oil passages.

This is my sketch of E39 Oil Filter vs conventional "Spin-on Canister Oil Filter". You can see the similarity between the 2 designs. The bottom line is the engine oil passages need pressurized oil, period.



So the obvious $1M dollar question: does anyone know where the Anti-Drainback Valve is located in the E39 (by peeking down the Oil Filter Housing)?
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  #18  
Old 09-16-2009, 10:13 AM
TheStig TheStig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cn90 View Post
So the obvious $1M dollar question: does anyone know where the Anti-Drainback Valve is located in the E39 (by peeking down the Oil Filter Housing)?

See here...


http://www.bmwtips.com/tipsntricks/oil/housing.htm


In Picture 7 the yellow arrow points to the Anti-Drainback Valve.
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:19 AM
Ryan M Ryan M is offline
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Originally Posted by MatWiz View Post
Ryan, clarify please. I think you pour the oil into the empty reservoir, not into the reservoir with the new filter in it?

It would make sense to me that the benefit will be in soaking the new dry filter and saturate it with the new oil. It seems logical that a new dry filter will take more time before it will transfer the new pumped oil through it and into the engine.

Secondly, if you place the new filter into the reservoir, and then pour oil into it, will all the oil freely flow into the engine or into the oil pan? (I don't remember how it goes inside there). I am asking because I know that the filter will block one of the hoses.

mw
I pour oil into an empty filter housing. This allows some oil to enter the oil galleries in the engine. Putting in a dry filter without soaking it would do virtually no harm, because oil will be immediately forced through it and the time of cavitation will be minimal.

If you put in the new filter and pour oil around it, it will reach all passages. The anti drainback valve needs suction to fully operate correctly and prevent oil from draining back to the pan. It is basically a ball that sits on top of an opening, and when the engine is shut down, you no longer have oil flow from the pump to keep the ball off its seat, so it is sucked against the opening, not allowing any oil to flow back. A sort of vacuum (if you will) is created. With the oil filter cap off, this suction would not be fully possible, and the anti drainback system won't work correctly. This is why in an e60 M5 or e63 M6 (which have a very specific procedure for changing oil), it is critical to unscrew the oil filter housing before unscrewing the drain plug. If you do the plug first, then the filter housing, you will have a ton of nasty oil come out, because the checkvalve was holding it in. I realize that those are dry sump and ours are wet sump, but the concept is similar.
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  #20  
Old 02-07-2010, 05:32 AM
torchy663 torchy663 is offline
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Hi Bluebee, i see you posted some time ago that you had a problem with your oil filter stuck to the housing. How did you get that oil filter off? i've got the same problem and i'm a bit reluctant to force it.

any help much appreciated

Torchy663
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  #21  
Old 02-07-2010, 07:05 AM
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bmw_n00b13 bmw_n00b13 is offline
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Force is required. With mine, it tore off in parts. The worst part is getting the top out of the cap, if that happens to you. Change the oil more frequently, and only use OEM filters (they still break down if left too long), and it can be avoided.
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Old 02-07-2010, 08:07 AM
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Force is required. With mine, it tore off in parts.
Same with me. I just put on nitrile gloves and peeled it apart. It came out in about 4 or 5 pieces. There's no risk since you're replacing it anyway.

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Old 02-07-2010, 11:12 AM
torchy663 torchy663 is offline
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thanks guys, force it is then, will tear it up tomorrow and put the new one in

torchy663
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  #24  
Old 02-07-2010, 07:20 PM
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STP? Just buy OEM, how much can you possibly save?

OEM are MANN and HENGST
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Old 02-07-2010, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Orxan4ik View Post
STP? Just buy OEM, how much can you possibly save? OEM are MANN and HENGST
I have no problem buying Mann or Hengst (especially since Mann and Hengst cost less than the STP when done in bulk mail order); however, STP is all they had at the auto parts store when I did that particular oil change.

So many people "think" just because something costs more, it's better. I think if something costs more, it simply costs more. Some other factor is going to be what tells me it's better or worse.

Do we have any real data (not feelings, but real hard scientific data) that says any particular filter is better than any other?

Without a published report, we're all just spouting (nearly worthless) opinions, including me.
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