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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

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  #26  
Old 10-06-2009, 09:37 AM
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ProfessorCook ProfessorCook is offline
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No, no, no, no, no... don't you guys read?!

We need some name-calling here.

(I just can't believe how quickly this degenerates to civility again. Sheesh.)
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  #27  
Old 10-06-2009, 09:59 AM
lsedels lsedels is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfessorCook View Post
No, no, no, no, no... don't you guys read?!

We need some name-calling here.

(I just can't believe how quickly this degenerates to civility again. Sheesh.)
OK, well ... we could try changing one of the letters in "Professor Cook" and see what happens?
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  #28  
Old 10-06-2009, 10:09 AM
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Kilgore Trout Kilgore Trout is offline
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Originally Posted by lsedels View Post
OK, well ... we could try changing one of the letters in "Professor Cook" and see what happens?
Professor Book doesn't seem like such an insult to me.
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  #29  
Old 10-06-2009, 11:19 AM
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See? Already more entertaining... but not relevant. 'Need to insult people because of their choice of RWD or AWD. Something like "Get out of your ivory tower Professor. It doesn't take a PhD to realize you were stupid for getting a RWD 328 in snow country!"

Then, see, I get to think up a snappy, funny response. (Or not.)

All kidding aside... there are pros and cons to both choices. Only the buyer can make the decision in the end. Despite my whining, excellent points have been brought up here.
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  #30  
Old 10-06-2009, 11:58 AM
Gators24 Gators24 is offline
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My reasoning...

I felt the need to document how I decided between the 328i and the 328i xdrive....

Firstly, I live in Denver, Colorado----so snow is DEFINITELY an issue.

I ordered my 2010 E92 back in August (pick it up on Saturday) and spend many restless nights thinking of the pros and cons. Below was my rationale for picking the xdrive

1. I live in a place where it snows often and AWD is definitely a benefit. My house also sits at the bottom of a hill in my neighborhood--I must have called my buddy a dozen times to come get me one winter because my previous RWD car couldn't get up the hill AT ALL...

2. Most of the E90's in Denver are AWD (dealers and private)...so I figured that having an AWD will be useful if in 4-6 years I decide to sell it since that is what many people feel they need.

3. The E92 with ZSP comes with 17" wheels that have All-Season (not performance) tires on it---this way I can pull them off right away in place of 19" wheels for Spring and Summer....then I won't even need tires for the first few winters as the OEM wheels and all-seasons can just be thrown right on as new.

4. I can always replace the stock suspension on the xdrive with a sports suspension that also eliminates the wheel gap. This aftermarket suspension is even better than the sports suspension on non-xi E92s. The Bilstein B8 kit with Eibach springs can be purchased for less than $1000.

5. I got a MT thinking that would even the playing field in terms of acceleration against an AT equipped 328i.

6. No moonroof equals some weight savings.

As you can see I thought long and hard about this decision and put pen to paper. I suggest that is what the OP does to see what works best for him.

Hope this help.

-Derek
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  #31  
Old 10-06-2009, 01:24 PM
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chaz58 chaz58 is offline
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After years of AWD I switched back to RWD. I basically found the AWD cars to be a bit heavy and numb, while the RWD cars are more involving (same reason I have a stick and not an Auto).

AWD is wonderful and easy to drive. It smooths over all of the rough spots. If you are worried about winter, RWD with the e90 stability control is very easy to drive. The biggest difference is on hills (where AWD REALLY helps), and obviously the RWD doesn't accelerate as fast. BMW has done a lot to make both of these cars stable.

If you like a sports suspension and a stick, you may like RWD more. If you like auto transmissions and don't want the sportier suspension, you may like AWD more.
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  #32  
Old 10-06-2009, 02:20 PM
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You are right, the weight does make a difference, but it is not huge. But, when you add up the weight, drive train friction losses, and the whole drive train inertia issue, it makes a big difference on cars under 200HP. With cars over 300 HP I really donít care (and the 335ix doesnít seem to care either). The 328 is a bit in the middle.

All of this combindes to make the rolling acceleration is about 1 second slower according to BMW (80-120km/h). Personally I find the throttle tip in to be a lot slower with AWD Ė although that only applies to N-A & manual transmissions; if you have an auto or a turbo you are going to have some delay anyway.

The cost/maintenance/performance-handling/acceleration/mpg issues arenít going to be huge to people looking for a car that is easy to drive in hilly winter conditions.

I do worry about people who get AWD as a substitute for winter tires. Yes it is easier, but you are better off (turning, braking) having RWD with winter tires than AWD + snows (hills not withstanding). I almost got T-boned by an AWD 328 last year because they couldnít stop in snow. They lost control of their car when I slowed down to make a right turn. Good thing for them there was no oncoming traffic.


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Originally Posted by Gators24 View Post
I love the talk about the extra weight of the AWD. I understand that there is weight increase, but how quickly can this become irrelevant....
Just my two cents....
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  #33  
Old 10-06-2009, 03:34 PM
matts335 matts335 is offline
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I will say that in the year I've been posting here at Bimmerfest, as well as at E90post, I've never seen anybody write "Gee, I really wish I had opted for Xdrive." Likewise, I've never seen an Xdrive owner say "Gee, I really regret getting AWD." Most people here seem happy with their choice one way or the other.
Let me be the first then, I regret getting AWD....but only a little. It snows once, maybe a twice a year here, and I have alternate transportation, so it really wasn't necessary. The extra weight and increased ride height (with wheel gap) I could do without.
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  #34  
Old 10-06-2009, 03:39 PM
jkp1187 jkp1187 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
Well, inability to accelerate can be a significant issue if you are sliding down a driveway or hill due to lost traction.
I assume you mean: sliding backwards downhill, since if you're sliding forwards, whether you have AWD or RWD won't matter too much.

And yes, that is one situation where AWD will help. I guess my thinking is that if you have to traverse that kind of terrain in bad conditions regularly, you already know it, and so are going to get AWD anyway. Whereas, if you have to ask if you need AWD, the answer is probably not.

Besides, having RWD means having a perfectly good excuse to stay at home on those days when the roads really are completely unsafe!

Last edited by jkp1187; 10-06-2009 at 03:42 PM.
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  #35  
Old 10-06-2009, 03:41 PM
jkp1187 jkp1187 is offline
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Originally Posted by ProfessorCook View Post
No, no, no, no, no... don't you guys read?!

We need some name-calling here.

(I just can't believe how quickly this degenerates to civility again. Sheesh.)
I expect this kind of attitude from a 328i driver...
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  #36  
Old 10-06-2009, 03:50 PM
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Kilgore Trout Kilgore Trout is offline
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Originally Posted by matts335 View Post
Let me be the first then, I regret getting AWD....but only a little. It snows once, maybe a twice a year here, and I have alternate transportation, so it really wasn't necessary. The extra weight and increased ride height (with wheel gap) I could do without.

Well, there is a first time for everything!
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  #37  
Old 10-06-2009, 03:55 PM
jkp1187 jkp1187 is offline
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Originally Posted by lsedels View Post
Traction on slippery snowy roads going uphill is also a potential issue. I've never owned RWD, but they also have a reputation for fishtailing. I'd still rather have the AWD. If I lived in the south, I'd get RWD.

The Performance Center Delivery, where I got to see how the 135i performed around the skid pad with DSC on vs DSC/DTC off, really went a long way toward calming any fears I might have had about fishtailing/losing control in slippery conditions.
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  #38  
Old 10-06-2009, 05:04 PM
bsine bsine is offline
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"...I will say that in the year I've been posting here at Bimmerfest, as well as at E90post, I've never seen anybody write "Gee, I really wish I had opted for Xdrive." Likewise, I've never seen an Xdrive owner say "Gee, I really regret getting AWD." Most people here seem happy with their choice one way or the other..."

...funny you should say that. We just bought a new '09 335i X-Drive Coupe with the M-Sport package and the other day my wife was telling a fellow '08 335i (Manual Coupe) owner at work about it. He admitted that he wished he had chosen both AWD and an automatic because of ever-growing traffic woes and wildly variable winter conditions in our area. Our dealer told us that X-drive 3 Series are gaining rapidly on RWD series in this neck of the woods. On the flip side, if we lived in Phoenix, it's doubtful that we would even consider the X-Drive version.

Last edited by bsine; 10-06-2009 at 05:16 PM. Reason: sp.
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  #39  
Old 10-06-2009, 05:46 PM
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Sorry for hijacking but does anyone know why wagons weigh so much more than sedans or coupes. It seems like a similar amount of metal is required to make one.
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  #40  
Old 10-06-2009, 06:04 PM
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The difference in weight between a RWD wagon and RWD sedan is only 180 pounds. That is easily explained by the increased metal and glass. The RWD coupe and sedan both weigh in the 3,350 range. The wagon weighs about 3,520.

That is enough to cost a few ticks of the clock 0-60. BMW lists it as 6.9 for the sedan 6AT RWD and 7.1 for the wagon 6AT RWD.
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Last edited by Kilgore Trout; 10-06-2009 at 06:23 PM.
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  #41  
Old 10-06-2009, 07:17 PM
neapolitan neapolitan is offline
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Originally Posted by bsine View Post
"...I will say that in the year I've been posting here at Bimmerfest, as well as at E90post, I've never seen anybody write "Gee, I really wish I had opted for Xdrive." Likewise, I've never seen an Xdrive owner say "Gee, I really regret getting AWD." Most people here seem happy with their choice one way or the other..."

...funny you should say that. We just bought a new '09 335i X-Drive Coupe with the M-Sport package and the other day my wife was telling a fellow '08 335i (Manual Coupe) owner at work about it. He admitted that he wished he had chosen both AWD and an automatic because of ever-growing traffic woes and wildly variable winter conditions in our area. Our dealer told us that X-drive 3 Series are gaining rapidly on RWD series in this neck of the woods. On the flip side, if we lived in Phoenix, it's doubtful that we would even consider the X-Drive version.
... Well, for most people this isn't their first automobile... people that prefer / want AWD will get it, and vice versa. Many people in my department have limited themselves to the 3 series instead of the //M3 because they want AWD.

People don't make car purchases for the most rational of reasons, but once you get used to RWD vs AWD handling, you easily realize the differences, both pro and con. Again, I totally believe RWD can be driven safely in the snow (in fact I did for many, many years). For me, AWD is much more desirable during the winter months. I have to go in on call sometimes at top speed waaaay before roads are plowed. I have *barely* made it up some hills and doubt I could have done it in a RWD only vehicle. If I had two cars or did not live in western PA, I would possibly get a summer car and AWD/winter car.

I'm not sure why people make such a big deal on the wheel gap... it is like 3/4 inch or something? Can anybody really even tell without seeing i/xi side by side?

Finally as a theoretical question -- if you had the same weight car, with minimal clutch/diff loss (that is, no difference in mpg), would anybody still choose RWD only? There are definitely things you can do without AWD, but in real life, would anybody choose RWD *purely* for handling?
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  #42  
Old 10-06-2009, 07:27 PM
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Well... Yes! I would.
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  #43  
Old 10-06-2009, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jkp1187 View Post
I expect this kind of attitude from a 328i driver...
Oh yeah?

Well your mother drives a Lexus! So there.
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  #44  
Old 10-06-2009, 08:16 PM
tmoritz tmoritz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkp1187 View Post
And AWD does nothing to help you stop in those conditions.
That's partially true. With my 'i' I sometimes stopped (had to!) where the 'xi' has given me the option of driving around or out of a situation. Controlled 'drifting' also seems a lot safer to me in my 'xi' - and def. more fun! But the basic point about the benefit of the 'xi' not being in the area of safety is of course correct. Here in MN, the 'i' mostly stays in the garage when it snows and the F250 comes out. The 'xi' is fun all year.
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  #45  
Old 10-06-2009, 09:10 PM
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Kilgore Trout Kilgore Trout is offline
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Originally Posted by neapolitan View Post
... Well, for most people this isn't their first automobile... people that prefer / want AWD will get it, and vice versa. Many people in my department have limited themselves to the 3 series instead of the //M3 because they want AWD.

People don't make car purchases for the most rational of reasons, but once you get used to RWD vs AWD handling, you easily realize the differences, both pro and con. Again, I totally believe RWD can be driven safely in the snow (in fact I did for many, many years). For me, AWD is much more desirable during the winter months. I have to go in on call sometimes at top speed waaaay before roads are plowed. I have *barely* made it up some hills and doubt I could have done it in a RWD only vehicle. If I had two cars or did not live in western PA, I would possibly get a summer car and AWD/winter car.

I'm not sure why people make such a big deal on the wheel gap... it is like 3/4 inch or something? Can anybody really even tell without seeing i/xi side by side?

Finally as a theoretical question -- if you had the same weight car, with minimal clutch/diff loss (that is, no difference in mpg), would anybody still choose RWD only? There are definitely things you can do without AWD, but in real life, would anybody choose RWD *purely* for handling?

That is almost like asking if anybody would choose whole wheat toast over cheesecake if the calories were the same. Probably not, but since that is such an unrealistic scenario, who cares?
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  #46  
Old 10-07-2009, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neapolitan View Post

Finally as a theoretical question -- if you had the same weight car, with minimal clutch/diff loss (that is, no difference in mpg), would anybody still choose RWD only? There are definitely things you can do without AWD, but in real life, would anybody choose RWD *purely* for handling?
I would. I like the ballance of RWD, you can steer with the skinny right pedal. AWD is more terminal in its understeer, and has more understeer all around anyway. If your not the track junkie type, you may not care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neapolitan View Post

I'm not sure why people make such a big deal on the wheel gap... it is like 3/4 inch or something? Can anybody really even tell without seeing i/xi side by side?

For me, it isn't the gap - its the handling. There have been cars I have lowered 1" in the past (sometimes even 1/2") and it really sharpened the steering, handling, and transients. I'm not sure why BMW can't do this with the AWD cars, since they sell more AWD cars than anyone in the world.


And anyway, when I had AWD I REALLY missed having RWD in the snow. I can't help it, I really like the skill and precision I can use in the snow. Makes driving fun for me (and it is my winter car). AWD is fun in a different way - it is basically just point and shoot; mindless; relaxing. You really should try it if you never had (especially in a 335ix type car).
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  #47  
Old 10-07-2009, 11:02 AM
jkp1187 jkp1187 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neapolitan View Post
Finally as a theoretical question -- if you had the same weight car, with minimal clutch/diff loss (that is, no difference in mpg), would anybody still choose RWD only? There are definitely things you can do without AWD, but in real life, would anybody choose RWD *purely* for handling?
It isn't just handling - RWD is also simpler and thus cheaper to maintain over the years versus AWD.

I'm not saying I'd avoid AWD, either - the upcoming X1, equipped with a diesel, might interest me, and that will ONLY be AWD in the USA.
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  #48  
Old 10-07-2009, 11:03 AM
jkp1187 jkp1187 is offline
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Originally Posted by ProfessorCook View Post
Oh yeah?

Well your mother drives a Lexus! So there.
You lie!

Although my mother-in-law did test-drive a Lexus recently, though she ultimately decided not to buy one.
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  #49  
Old 10-07-2009, 11:19 AM
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Kilgore Trout Kilgore Trout is offline
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Originally Posted by jkp1187 View Post
It isn't just handling - RWD is also simpler and thus cheaper to maintain over the years versus AWD.

I'm not saying I'd avoid AWD, either - the upcoming X1, equipped with a diesel, might interest me, and that will ONLY be AWD in the USA.
I've argued this point here before, which has led to angry denials from Xi owners.
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  #50  
Old 10-07-2009, 03:27 PM
neapolitan neapolitan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
I've argued this point here before, which has led to angry denials from Xi owners.
Silly accusation. Let's break it down...

Being a MT driver, I appreciate simplicity. This was a huge factor in choosing a MT back in the 1980s when auto trannys were younger -- I remember talking with my father about this, and I have always liked the theoretical lower cost due to the simplicity of manuals.

However, over time this argument becomes weaker -- even though I still drive a MT, I wouldn't really argue that it is more reliable than today's auto transmission. In fact, once autos get extremely reliable the viscous / hydraulic coupler may need less than a clutch plate replacement at 80k.

It's not an angry denial, but honestly, do you think that the failure point will be in an AWD clutch / transmission link / whatever in an old car, having two of them versus four? It's probably pretty low down on overall priorities. The weight issue IMO is more convincing.
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