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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #26  
Old 10-08-2009, 09:28 AM
d geek d geek is offline
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I was not trying to question the reliability of the design- just passing on what I had heard from a BMW insider. This type of failure is pretty disturbing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin
Real OEM shows the same part number for the rods in European and US engines. (11247798368)

Real OEM shows the same part number for the crankshaft/bearing assembly in European and US engines as well. (112177942263)
that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Here is the post from E90post.com forums:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul
Quote:
Originally Posted by 535desire
I just want to make sure I understand you. Are you saying that the US 335d engine different than the Euro version??


I'm surprised to learn that there are so many differences between the 330 and 335 d, but I'd be REALLY surprised if the basic 335d engine differred between US and Europe.

Yes, you are correct and what I said is true. The US 335d is different than the EU version. I took part in the press conference yesterday. The US version was designed specifically to make the engine smoother, quieter and cleaner.

There are modifications to the pistons, rods, pins, crank case (main rod bearings), breather system, EGR system, the SCR system, Exhaust, additional noise absorption elements under the engine and elsewhere.

The US also sees additional heating components. The list is extensive, and the modifications significant; the reason another engine was not used.
I've asked mapezzul to post here and elaborate, if he can.
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  #27  
Old 10-08-2009, 09:53 AM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf Dreisig View Post

PS to ARD: But is is so much more fun, not to mentions easier, to diagnose the cause of an engine failure based anecdotal 'evidence' without having to get your hands dirty actually inspecting the oily parts


Yeah, don't get me wrong- I'd love to hear more about this single failure, whatever we can get and possible smoking guns. But to start talking about 'patterns' and how many motors were built, as if we are seeing a 'rate" (ie # failures divided by # of motors) is silly. Posts about 'how this didn't happen to mine are a bit off the mark. IMHO

A
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  #28  
Old 10-08-2009, 01:48 PM
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Route 66 Route 66 is offline
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I remember when Toyota had problems with the camshafts breaking on the 5.7. I think many manufacturers have production problems when introducing a new technology.

Last edited by Route 66; 10-08-2009 at 01:56 PM.
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  #29  
Old 10-08-2009, 02:56 PM
Penguin Penguin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Route 66 View Post
I remember when Toyota had problems with the camshafts breaking on the 5.7. I think many manufacturers have production problems when introducing a new technology.
Yes, but that's why much of the discussion is around how "new" the technology really is.

It has been mentioned there are significant differences in the engines between the current US and the European engines, well beyond exhaust emissions treatment, but a cursory check of a couple of the significant changes mentioned showed identical part numbers for the European engine and the US engine.
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  #30  
Old 10-08-2009, 06:58 PM
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mapezzul mapezzul is offline
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The engine in the 335d and X5 xDrive35d (internally recognized as the M57N2) has been modified extensively for US consumption.

Most enthusiasts are familiar with the urea injection system (Diesel Emissions Fluid) to combat NOx emissions for the US market but it is the other changes for the that are not as well known. Here are many of the changes.

Wrist pin locations are offset- moved towards cylinder wall to create less rock in the power stroke and decrease noise. The pins have also been tweaked, and obviously the pistons are different.

Additional cast reinforcement on the bottom of the engine crank case. It covers 4 of the main bearings to increase stiffness, decrease vibration and reduce noise.

Noise reduction panel added under the engine.

The crank case ventilation system is heated and monitored (improved emissions).

Torque converter has twin axial spring dampers to smooth flow of power when transmission coupling is locked up.

Electronic ceramic heater for increased heat during cold weather for the occupants in the vehicle.

These changes are for improved emissions, decreased noise/vibrations and improve creature comforts. None of these items are truly necessary but they have helped make the appeal of diesel greater for the US market, with an additional price.


Original content from BimmerFile.com
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  #31  
Old 10-08-2009, 06:59 PM
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mapezzul mapezzul is offline
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Also worth noting is that "REAL OEM" is not always correct- there have been errors in the past, early E90 productions specifically.
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  #32  
Old 10-08-2009, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
Also worth noting is that "REAL OEM" is not always correct- there have been errors in the past, early E90 productions specifically.

There must be an error in realoem on this one too, as it shows the pistons have the same part number.
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  #33  
Old 10-08-2009, 08:34 PM
diesaroo diesaroo is offline
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I suppose the obvious but only real answer is time will tell if this is an isolated incident or more prevalent.

Even though Mercedes has been building diesels from the beginning, they had rod bending problems with the 300sd.

So far we have one case of total failure. Any production engines will have a statistical outlier. I think there will be more cause for alarm if we get several more in the near future.

In the meantime...enjoy your diesels gentlemen!

Btw, is anybody using cetane boosters or fuel additives? I'm going to use PS to start and see how that goes. I use redline DFC in my 190 diesel but that stuff is too pricey to use a lot of. Reason being US diesel has cetane of 40 to 45 while BMW recommends a minimum of 51.

Cheers
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  #34  
Old 10-09-2009, 03:38 AM
Craig B Craig B is offline
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It says on the gas cap not to use any additives, so if I were you, I wouldn't want to void my warranty. I run premium diesel fuel and don't have any problems...

Craig
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  #35  
Old 10-09-2009, 04:13 AM
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mapezzul mapezzul is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diesaroo View Post
I suppose the obvious but only real answer is time will tell if this is an isolated incident or more prevalent.

Even though Mercedes has been building diesels from the beginning, they had rod bending problems with the 300sd.

So far we have one case of total failure. Any production engines will have a statistical outlier. I think there will be more cause for alarm if we get several more in the near future.

In the meantime...enjoy your diesels gentlemen!

Btw, is anybody using cetane boosters or fuel additives? I'm going to use PS to start and see how that goes. I use redline DFC in my 190 diesel but that stuff is too pricey to use a lot of. Reason being US diesel has cetane of 40 to 45 while BMW recommends a minimum of 51.

Cheers
BMW has been building diesels for quite some time as well, they are not "new" to this party at all. BMW makes some of the best and most reliable there are. Diesel issues are few and far between- this could have been a fuel issue or undetected defect in manufacturing. Personally I wonder if the transmission went first then caused the engine to go- A car with this many miles usually does not develop an engine issue from a defect.

BMW will have an engineer break this engine down and see what the cause was - test the fuel, look at the "black box" and evaluate the situation. As far as I am aware this is the first reported issue with the advanced diesels. There are motors out there with far more miles than this and no issues.

This is an outlier and not a real concern at this point. It is a shame it happened but with any mass produced product this occurs.

It may take several weeks for a new motor to be shipped, it may even go through Spartanburg then get shipped to the dealer, with the new regional distribution centers supply chain methods have improved but I am not familiar with them at this time.

-M
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  #36  
Old 10-09-2009, 06:27 AM
Funf Dreisig Funf Dreisig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
...this could have been a fuel issue...
OK I'll bite. What kind of "fuel issue" could have caused the engine damage described by the OP?

Funf Dreisig
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  #37  
Old 10-09-2009, 08:03 AM
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Route 66 Route 66 is offline
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I am sure that a mettalurgist will test all the the parts for additives.
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  #38  
Old 10-09-2009, 08:08 AM
d geek d geek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It says on the gas cap not to use any additives, so if I were you, I wouldn't want to void my warranty. I run premium diesel fuel and don't have any problems...

Craig
the manual does allow use of up to 5% biodiesel. I would use this for improved lubricity.
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  #39  
Old 10-09-2009, 08:15 AM
Penguin Penguin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Route 66 View Post
I am sure that a mettalurgist will test all the the parts for additives.
I rather doubt that.
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  #40  
Old 10-09-2009, 08:28 AM
d geek d geek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diesaroo View Post
...Btw, is anybody using cetane boosters or fuel additives? I'm going to use PS to start and see how that goes. I use redline DFC in my 190 diesel but that stuff is too pricey to use a lot of. Reason being US diesel has cetane of 40 to 45 while BMW recommends a minimum of 51.

Cheers
its unfortunate that they have a policy of 'no additives', but also a recommended cetane of 51, when practically NO pumps dispense this fuel in N America

are you really concerned about the cost of an additive when you are buying a $45-60K vehicle?

Last edited by d geek; 10-09-2009 at 08:35 AM.
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  #41  
Old 10-09-2009, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by d geek View Post
its unfortunate that they have a policy of 'no additives'
Yeah, but virtually all of the manufacturers have this policy, simply because they have no idea what type of additive you might put into it. So it's either a policy of "no additives," or having to test and qualify particular additives for approval, or be willing to pay a warranty bill no matter what anyone tosses into the fuel.

It's interesting to note that BMW has a "no additives" policy for their gasoline engines, yet they sell their own gasoline additive (which looks and smells suspiciously like Chevron Techron).
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  #42  
Old 10-09-2009, 08:59 AM
d geek d geek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin View Post
Yeah, but virtually all of the manufacturers have this policy, simply because they have no idea what type of additive you might put into it. So it's either a policy of "no additives," or having to test and qualify particular additives for approval, or be willing to pay a warranty bill no matter what anyone tosses into the fuel....
agreed, but biodiesel does appear to be an acceptable additive for diesel per the manual. It just is not going to help the cetane much with a max concentration of 5%.
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  #43  
Old 10-09-2009, 09:05 AM
Penguin Penguin is offline
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Originally Posted by d geek View Post
agreed, but biodiesel does appear to be an acceptable additive for diesel per the manual. It just is not going to help the cetane much with a max concentration of 5%.

Frankly, I plan to steer clear of all biodiesel, as the quality control simply is not yet in-place for that stuff.
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  #44  
Old 10-09-2009, 09:07 AM
d geek d geek is offline
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Originally Posted by Penguin View Post
Frankly, I plan to steer clear of all biodiesel, as the quality control simply is not yet in-place for that stuff.
i feel completely comfortable using ASTM spec biodiesel, and have done so for about 7 years now on my tdi.
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  #45  
Old 10-09-2009, 11:54 AM
Scot Scot is offline
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I've spent the last 5+ years cautioning people about the hazards of biodesel. If you listen to the gov' experts and tree huggers, you would think that this magical fuel was going to save the planet by itself.

From a Cummins perspective, we remind our customers that ANY fuel additive that causes a failure in the engine is not covered by the Manufacturers warranty. Some people have said that using biodiesel voids the warranty, but that is simply not true. Cummins approves biodiesel use I blends up to 20% for certain engines in our lineup. 5% is considered a normal blend that you can find at a pump. Cummins prohibits the use of Biodiesel in stand by generators, and we caution recreational and commercial marine customers from using it at all.

The reason for these two exclusions is based on biodiesel's ability to hold water. Water in fuel tanks on boats or with generators don't turn over fuel much, and condensation forms in the tanks and is kept in solution through the biodiesel molecule. Water is an engine's fuel injector's worst enemy, so any avoidance of water in fuel is imperative.

As far as using in trucks and cars......if you put biodiesel in an older storage tank or onboard fuel tank, the caustic nature of biodiesel will clean out the tank and fuel lines. You'd be replacing fuel filters more often until all the sludge is removed from the fuel system. biodeisel is also hard on painted surfaces, so beware of spilling during refueling.

If you feel that you need to save he planet, and need to use biodiesel, make sure you buy from a really good supplier, and one that rotates his stock on a frequent basis. If you live above the Mason-Dixon line, I would avoid biodiesel during winter months, as it will gum up your fuel system when the temp begins to drop. The major biodiesel retailer in Boston tells people not to use hi blends between Haloween and St. Patrick's day.
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  #46  
Old 10-09-2009, 12:45 PM
d geek d geek is offline
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Originally Posted by Scot View Post
... If you live above the Mason-Dixon line, I would avoid biodiesel during winter months, as it will gum up your fuel system when the temp begins to drop. ....
Does your advice pertain to BMW diesels using approved B5?

I've used B20 year round up hear in Michigan with no problems. I switched to a lower concentration (~B3) a couple of years ago.
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  #47  
Old 10-09-2009, 01:11 PM
JerrySpaeder JerrySpaeder is offline
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The local dealer has been very diplomatic, choosing their words and questions carefully. They've never said anything accusatory, but I suspect their first impression was that we had done something to mess things up.

My understanding is that the fuel was one of the first things tested. It checked out fine.

Another question they posed: Had the vehicle been driven through high water or submerged? (No.) They said it didn't appear any water had made its way into the engine. Sounds like they just wanted to hear a corroborating answer.

We were also asked if any work had been done, presumably implying some sort of software or firmware modification. Subsequent electronic diagnostics confirmed that nothing unusual had been done to any engine programs.

I don't know how rigorous the local tests were compared to what can be done elsewhere, but BMW seems to be satisfied that the failure wasn't in the customer's control.

Truth be told, I have opened the hood only once since taking possession. I was underwhelmed. Nothing fun to look at, really. My involvement has been pretty much limited to driving, washing, applying Zaino products and refueling.

Speaking of refueling, the fuel efficiency is better than I had expected (and improves with age). Before the Event occurred last Sunday, the vehicle was getting 28.6 mpg on average for the entire road trip. At one point during a long descent off a mountain pass, she enthusiastically reported a total estimated range of 847 miles (141 driven + 706 range to empty). A bit optimistic, but I like her attitude.
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  #48  
Old 10-09-2009, 01:27 PM
d geek d geek is offline
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Jerry-
thanks for the update. glad to hear they are being cooperative so far.

a few oil questions:
did you ever see an oil warning message of any kind? Does your x5d have a dipstick? Did you ever check the oil level, or is that checked by the computer at every start up which notifies the driver? Did you ever need to add oil? Had the oil been changed yet?
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  #49  
Old 10-09-2009, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by JerrySpaeder View Post
Nothing fun to look at, really.
Yeah, ever since the manufacturers discover it was easier and cheaper to just make a piece of plastic to cover the engine, looking in the engine compartment has lost a lot of appeal, since form no longer has anything to do with function.

It was a lot more visually appealing years ago when valve covers, air cleaners, intake manifolds, and the other parts were actually visible. Nowadays the styling guys can make it look like a flux capacitor, a big transformers toy, or, for that matter, it could have a big picture of the BMW CEO lighting cigars with 50 dollar bills!

But I'm sure it is a lot cheaper than what they used to do to paint an polish valve covers and air cleaners.
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  #50  
Old 10-09-2009, 03:10 PM
JerrySpaeder JerrySpaeder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d geek View Post
a few oil questions:
did you ever see an oil warning message of any kind? Does your x5d have a dipstick? Did you ever check the oil level, or is that checked by the computer at every start up which notifies the driver? Did you ever need to add oil? Had the oil been changed yet?
I don't think there's a dipstick but I could be mistaken. No surprise considering the number of times I've opened the hood. The owner's manual refers only to an electronic oil level check like my e90 330i. No oil warning indicator ever appeared and I was never prompted to add oil. An oil change was performed on August 21 at 9305 miles.

In the middle of all the commotion, while the vehicle was making all that rhythmic racket, we used the iDrive to perform a system check. All I remember was a list of items with green labels showing all systems OK. Made me want to ask her, "No problem? Are you sure? Then what the hell is all that noise?!"

As far as the internal systems were concerned, everthing was fine despite the loud banging coming from underneath. Actually sounded like something came loose in the exhaust system.

The yellow gear/exclamation point indicator only appeared when I tried to start the engine after the Big Bang and after coasting to a stop.

No, the only warning indicator I've ever seen was a strange "Incorrect Exhaust Fluid" message. I say strange because I was expecting to see something more along the lines of "Exhaust Fluid Low," not incorrect. I figure maybe something got lost in translation, surprising considering how persnickety BMW is.

The appearance of the "Incorrect Exhaust Fluid" message is what prompted me to call for a regular oil service. I had actually expected the first oil change to occur after more miles, like 330i.
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