X5 xDrive35d catastrophic engine failure

d Geek....

You'd have an easier time finding out what the front bumper of a 2010 X5 looks like .... than a gallon of 500 ppm diesel in the US. refineries just aren't making it..........

Originally Posted by UncleJ

Is that remanufactured unit for the 50 state US diesels? ....

I don't know. I was just trying to give the OP an idea of what a re-manufactured short engine might cost if he were to buy one. Of course a new short engine would cost more.

FWIW I agree with the sentiment that the OP should at a minimum demand a new short engine. And if it were me, I'd be looking to do an immediate AS IS trade in on a new 35d. I wouldn't expect an even swap because I had the use of the 2009 35d for several months. OTOH I would not expect to take the "new car bath" twice in one year either.

Funf Dreisig

Originally Posted by diesaroo

http://www.chevron.com/products/ourf...ech_Review.pdf

Thanks for the excellent and informative link!

Originally Posted by Scot

d Geek....

You'd have an easier time finding out what the front bumper of a 2010 X5 looks like .... than a gallon of 500 ppm diesel in the US. refineries just aren't making it..........

are you as sure of that statement as you are this one?

ULSD has been the only approved on-hwy diesel fuel since October 2006.....Nationwide. Part of the EPA mandate for on-hwy truck regs for 1-1-07.

i'm not sure i should take you seriously

absolutely.... since when did a TDI geek take anything seriously ?

Dgeek did you live in Austin, Texas?

no problem, Scot. I'll be sure to watch for any more misinformation out of you, and challenge it as i see fit.

Originally Posted by Route 66

Dgeek did you live in Austin, Texas?

no- Michigan. why?

Over at Freds TDI Club there is a member who goes under the Dgeek name I thought that was you.

So where is the misinformation ? Do you understand what the federal regs are for on-hwy ? DO you understand why the need for 15 ppm fuel ?

Originally Posted by Route 66

Over at Freds TDI Club there is a member who goes under the Dgeek name I thought that was you.

that's diesel geek (Jim). i'm tditom at tdiclub.

Did you make the DC Fest this year?

Originally Posted by Scot

So where is the misinformation ? ...

back there in post #71 where you claimed ULSD was the only highway diesel allowed since 2006, Ace.

Originally Posted by Scot

..? Do you understand what the federal regs are for on-hwy ? DO you understand why the need for 15 ppm fuel ?

yeah- what are you having problems understanding?

Originally Posted by Penguin

Thanks for the excellent and informative link!

Well I learned a few things from it though it can be dated at times.

IIRC, the changeover from LSD to ULSD has been voluntary from station to station and supplier to supplier up until December 2010 according to one source. Here in Middle Tennessee, within the last 2 months, the local Flying J went from offering ULSD as a single service lane product to all lanes. I think LSD is still being sold in some heavy truck pumps. ULSD is widespread but by no means entirely universal.

So if you don't see the ULSD sticker on the puimp...don't fill up as it may damage the emissions systems on your bimmer.

JerrySpaeder: Any updates on your X5? As others have said, BMW owes you at the least a brand new engine. If I were to venture a guess, other than a material failure, I would say one of the oil squirters that cools the back of one of the pistons clogged causing the piston to seize in the bore and the connecting rod failed in tension and the crankshaft punched the rod through the block.

This has happened on some mercedes diesel engines since the design is similar.

What's your problem... Ace.............. we have a nice friendly board here, and once in a while some Jerk comes in and thinks he knows more than others......and that would be d Geek.... I don't know why you're on this board, since your an avid TDI geek, but for the vast majority on this board that have never driven a diesel, nor owned one, I think its a great way to learn about what to expect when they spend upwards of $60K on a new vehicle.

For those that aren't as smart as dGeek. The reason the federal mandate on ULSD with 15ppm of sulfur is to allow the use of a diesel particulate filter to eliminate the PM content of the exhaust. If you use diesel fuel with higher concentrations, you'll poison the diesel oxidation catalyst, and ruin the exhaust system. A hefty, non warrantable repair. You can decide to use off-hwy fuel if you have access to a fuel tank on a farm or construction site. This fuel is dyed red to identify it as being 3,000 ppm, and exempt from federal hwy taxes. It will ruin your exhaust system, and if you get caught using it as an automotive fuel, there are big fines to pay. And if you only use it once, the red dye will linger in the fuel tank and continue to turn the fuel red for some time. You can use ULSD in vehicles older than 2006 without any issues.

Another issue to concern yourself with, is the use of Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF). This is a solution of 32.5% Urea with distilled water that while in solution, will freeze and thaw at the same rates, making it usefull in all climates in North America. The EPA granted the use of DEF in the SCR portion in the exhaust to control NOx to near zero levels. If you choose to home brew your own DEF and use in your $60K vehicle to save a penny or too, beware that if you're out of concentration, or if you use tap water, you'll build up scale in the DEF doser, and cause expensive repairs as well. I believe the DEF tanks on the X5 approach 6 gallons total. The ratio of DEF to diesel fuel is 2 - 3 % on heavy trucks, and likely less than that on an X5.

So, the EPA begain the journey to reduce NOx and PM back in the 1970's, and 2010 is the big hurdle for on-hwy trucks. Fortunately for us that are awaiting X5 35d, the path to ULSD did indeed begin in April of 2006, when the east coast and southern refineries stoped refining 500 ppm fuel, and began to produce 15 ppm ULSD #1 diesel (also known as Kerosene). The drawback of 15 ppm is the lubricity that sulfur provided to fuel, and all suppliers add a lubricity additive, not at the refinery, but at the local bulk fuel rack in the area that services the fuel stations in each major depot.

The long and short of it, just so d Geek understands it all, is that you shouldn't be afraid to purchase ULSD at any truckstop on a US interstate, or at your local Shell or Mobil station in your neighborhood. If you choose to go the biodiesel route, a B2 to B5 blend is probably nothing to worry about, as long as you're buying from a quality supplier. You'll pay a premium for biodiesel, and I'm not convinced that spending and extra 20 - 30 cents will get your much in the way of lower emissions or less dependence on foreign oil.

Hope this helps. Not that it matters, but I've been in the diesel business for over 30 years, and live this stuff every day.

Originally Posted by diesaroo

....So if you don't see the ULSD sticker on the puimp...don't fill up as it may damage the emissions systems on your bimmer.....

That's the bottom line!

I've done a lot of looking since we got our 35d. In our local area (Central Texas) I haven't found a single station the still handles LSD. In fact, I've talked with a couple of local truckers who complained that LSD is no longer available at ANY station in this area.

FWIW I suspect that most pumps still dispensing LSD fuel won't actually fit in an X5's filler tube without using the funnel; because they are likely to be at truck stops where the larger nozzle helps fill those huge tanks faster

Funf Dreisig

jerry- Please let us know when you have an update. I'd be surprised if the fuel is found as a major factor in your engine failure, and got caught up in trying to correct some misinformation. sorry for contributing to your thread going off-track.

best of luck

Originally Posted by Funf Dreisig

From RealOEM Around $16k re-manufactured.

Thanks for the information. I knew it had to be expensive but had no idea about prices. Guess it's safe to say the brand new one being shipped from Germany has a price tag that exceeds $16K.

Update: Nothing juicy to report. Playing the waiting game while BMW ships a new engine from Germany.

To recap, it would appear the failure started in and was isolated to the engine but no one has confirmed this theory.

What I've observed:

• Loud rhythmic noises from underneath while driving at highway speeds, increasing in volume over the course of a few minutes, culminating in a significant bang and sharp jolt. It felt as if the vehicle had hit something but no collision occurred and no parts sprayed onto the highway. Engine stopped running and I coasted off road into a parking lot. Unable to restart.
• No leaks.
• No broken, dangling parts underneath.
• Prior to event - No warning lights.
• During event - No warning lights. All fluid levels showed normal with green OK labels on the nav screen.
• After event - Yellow warning indicator (gear icon with exclamation point) showed up on dash panel when attempting to start engine.

What I've done to modify the vehicle:

• No tuning
• No special hardware
• Essentially... nothing. As suggested by Funf Dreisig, I'm pretty sure the vehicle growled at me when I opened the hood a few months ago, so I left things alone in there.

Fuel used:

• ULSD
• No special additives

What I've been told by the service dept:

• Electronic diagnostics showed conflicting values.
• Fuel tested OK. Nothing unusual found.
• No signs of water in places where water shouldn't be.
• A camera was used to look inside engine where pieces of metal were found in the oil. Camera also revealed a hole in the block.
• A new engine will be shipped from Germany and installed. This will take three to four weeks.
• If there are ancillary problems, we won't know of them until the new engine is in place.

My unanswered questions include:

1. Did an engine component cause the failure? And if so...
2. Was the failure isolated? Or did the abrupt engine stop damage the transmission? I wish I had the specific engineering/mechanical knowledge to answer this one. Or...
3. Did a transmission problem cause the engine to fail?

The proposed resolution is to install a brand new engine. I think I'm OK with this as long as nothing else was affected. If the scope of the problem grows to include the transmission, it's probably time to replace the vehicle. But this is all speculation.

We've been treated well so far and have the use of a relatively new X5 while we're waiting on the replacement engine to arrive. The loaner is a bare bones 30i with leatherette and without all the gadgets, but it's still an X5. I suppose I could whine and complain but I'd rather save my breath. I might need it later.

At this point, I'm trusting they will be fair and reasonable. BMW and this dealership have never given me a reason to believe otherwise. Hope I'm not being naive.

Hi Jerry-

Thanks for the thorough update.

So some quick comments:

1. I suspect that both new and remanufactured engines ship from Germany. Just FYI. I am actually not as concerned as others may be about a 'reman' that comes out of a BMW plant, but if you are, make sure you know what you are getting. The dealer may be shorthanding it, but maybe not.

2. I would (and I do/did, every time I have a dealer visit for warranty work) insist on a copy of every single document in my service record- all the juicy stuff that is usually stapled to the work order packet and filed away or copied to BMWNA. They will have you sign some cover sheet, and you get a ridiculously short "official" record .... but you want the entire record (well, I do). I want the DME print outs, everything. I simply say, sweet as pie to the gal processing the paper. "Could I just get a copy of all this before I sign for it?". I've never been refused. Think of it like medical records- it is your car, you have a right to it. If issues come up later with tranny, etc, your having the work history might be invaluable...

GL

A

Originally Posted by ard

Hi Jerry-

Thanks for the thorough update.

So some quick comments:

1. I suspect that both new and remanufactured engines ship from Germany. Just FYI. I am actually not as concerned as others may be about a 'reman' that comes out of a BMW plant, but if you are, make sure you know what you are getting. The dealer may be shorthanding it, but maybe not.

2. I would (and I do/did, every time I have a dealer visit for warranty work) insist on a copy of every single document in my service record- all the juicy stuff that is usually stapled to the work order packet and filed away or copied to BMWNA. They will have you sign some cover sheet, and you get a ridiculously short "official" record .... but you want the entire record (well, I do). I want the DME print outs, everything. I simply say, sweet as pie to the gal processing the paper. "Could I just get a copy of all this before I sign for it?". I've never been refused. Think of it like medical records- it is your car, you have a right to it. If issues come up later with tranny, etc, your having the work history might be invaluable...

GL

A

+1 here's to your new engine

Jerry, I hope your engine doesn't take as long as my temp. control sensor. It's been on back order with BMW since August 4th. I'm still driving around with a check engine light. I find this unacceptable. I hope you have better luck than I've had with BMW parts availability.

Keep us posted...

Craig

Just a quick question for those who have their owners manuals and service and warranty books: Where does it state that BMW recommends a minimum 51 cetane?

Originally Posted by diesaroo

Just a quick question for those who have their owners manuals and service and warranty books: Where does it state that BMW recommends a minimum 51 cetane?

I don't believe it is in the manual, but 51 is recommended, not required:

http://www.bmwusanews.com/diesel/faq.html

+1 re cetane. I can't seem to find a mention of it in the pdf of the 10 manual. In any event it seems tough to find that in my area, although standard cetane (41 I believe) is readily available