Do you really save $$ on gas with diesel?

Originally Posted by UncleJ

Diesel is still running cheaper than regular in the South Bay Area near San Jose. You have to watch your prices though, I saw a shell station with prices HIGHER than premium while a Chevron station a block away had the price lower than regular.

Shell seems to be one of the worst for that kind of thing. Shell on Whipple in RWC is ~$0.30-0.40/gal more than the Chevron across the street! Shell in San Carlos a few blocks away is more inline with everyone else...

The diesel model costs $3-4k more than the 6 cyl model.

From what I have read, diesels/hybrids really don't have a payoff for several years and close to 75k miles.

If you lease a diesel, there is no payoff.

If you trade a 14MPG 5 year old X5 in for a diesel model, you just plunked down at least another $30k for a new car to get better mileage. Does not make sense from a savings perspective.

To me you have to look at the total vehicle cost including finance and operating costs.

It is rediculous to me to by a $60k truck because it gets 5 more MPG.

Don't get me wrong. I think diesels are great. But like Hybrids, they make the most sense from an economical standpoint when they are in $15-$20k cars.

Originally Posted by NetSpySD

The diesel model costs $3-4k more than the 6 cyl model.

From what I have read, diesels/hybrids really don't have a payoff for several years and close to 75k miles.

If you lease a diesel, there is no payoff.

If you trade a 14MPG 5 year old X5 in for a diesel model, you just plunked down at least another $30k for a new car to get better mileage. Does not make sense from a savings perspective.

To me you have to look at the total vehicle cost including finance and operating costs.

It is rediculous to me to by a $60k truck because it gets 5 more MPG.

Don't get me wrong. I think diesels are great. But like Hybrids, they make the most sense from an economical standpoint when they are in $15-$20k cars.

I agree that it is not wise to buy a $60k vehicle purely because of small gain in MPG. I do think, however, that it may make sense to buy a diesel vehicle for its performance (power/torque), and in case of X5 35d - its performance well exceeds the 3.5 gas version while x5d currently costs less than gas x5 6 cyl. Better fuel economy is just an added bonus for me. I disagree that diesel engines only makes sense in less expensive vehicles. You should test drive 335d and x5 35d to understand.

We owned a 2001 X5 4.4i and loved it since we had it built, until it was totaled earlier this year. BUT...

We live in the country about 50 miles from the nearest Costco etc.. On a good day our old X5 would make that run on cruise control at roughly 20 mpg. The 35d I test drove did the exact same run at 27 mpg! The majority of this run is on hilly 2 lane 55 & 60 mph roads. About 1/3 is on a at 70 & 65 mph 'freeway'. This type of driving comprises 80-90& of our annual miles. The remaining 10-20% is short trips to local stores etc. where the diesel mpg still beats all other X5s.

Our old X5 was a serious tow vehicle. We regularly hauled a couple of tons of gravel, road base etc. in our HD utility trailer (rated at 5,000lbs). We needed a replacement with all the refinement and towing power of the X5 but with better mileage.

The bottom line is that, we would not have considered buying another X5 if BMW had not offered a diesel. Given the $4,500 discount, $1,800 tax rebate, etc. The initial cost of the X5 35d is actually below ALL OTHER X5s. So diesel fuel could cost close to 35% more than premium gas (for the entire life of the X5) and we would still break even

Funf Dreisig

p.s. the only serious alternatives were other German clean diesels: MB ML320 BlueTec, Toureg, etc.

Originally Posted by NetSpySD

The diesel model costs $3-4k more than the 6 cyl model.

4500 cash incentive being offered makes it cheaper than the base X530i for now...

Originally Posted by ct545i

I'm probably one of very few, if not the only one, to like the BMW diesel engine enough to own both x5 35d and 335d. I've had the 335d since early March (fabulous vehicle) and I just traded my wife's 07 Volvo XC90 3.2 for a demo X5 35d with only 26 miles. I got a very fair value for the XC90 and the X5 for $7k under invoice (yes, $7k under invoice! - only because the car was officially put in service back in Feb. when there was a special demo program giving $2.5k to dealer) - I could not resist that. Have I mentioned that I love the BMW bi-turbo diesel engine?...

I am thinking similar... how do you like the 335d's performance?

Originally Posted by Rdgdawg

I am thinking similar... how do you like the 335d's performance?

I like it a lot. I've owned 04 545i and 08 550i both with sport package, and 335d feels at least as strong. I do miss anti-roll stabilization and active steering from the 5 series' sport package a bit - but that's 3-series vs. 5-series difference, not diesel vs gas.

My calculation is a bit different. I (and probably most who buy an X5) pay the Alternate Minimum Tax (AMT) so I don't qualify for tax rebate (bye bye $1800). I negotiated both X5 3.0 and 35d and the bottom line cost difference after taxes between a X5 3.0 and 35d was over $2200 (considering current rebates of $2500 back on 3.0 and $4500 on 35d). I drive about 15,000 miles per year and figured $600/year fuel savings based on my driving so basically a four (4) year payback . That assumes diesel and premium gas stay at parity (though within the past year or so I have seen diesel going for as much as $1/gallon above premium which would obviously eliminate any mpg benefit )

I plan on keeping this vehicle but after 4 years BMW maintenance is up so I have to pay for Adblue . I did a quick search and it seems like the stuff goes for about $15/half gallon. BMW 35d requires 6 gallons of Adblue ,so theres another $180 every 11,000 miles. Thats assuming I can do myself and don't need special BMW Adblue stuff ,otherwise you can probably double that cost. (oh if you don't refill at 11,000 the X5 35d will not start. Thats right-NO GO!! ) . The Adblue system is a whole other fluid system unique to the 35d. Thats more things to go wrong. I understand 6 gallon Adblue tank takes some room from luggage space in the 35d . Also the Adblue fluid freezes below 15 degrees so need to run a heater when it gets cold. There is also increase maintenance on injectors and other parts with diesel. Considering above seems to offset most of any fuel savings. So while x35d mpg numbers look great on paper its just because your paying for it elsewhere (higher up front cost, higher long term maintenance costs, potentially higher diesel fuel prices , etc.)

Then there's some additional factors I considered: You can't always find a low sulfur diesel station in some areas (e.g. we recently looked in three stations in remote Pennsylvania with no luck). The x5 35d has been reported to be noisier than x5 3.0 and i've also heard of occasional hesitations with the diesel.

I know X5 35d beats in torque and performance (something like 7.2 vs 8 seconds ) . However in my opinion ,given the the above considerations, makes the economics and ultimately the decision between 35d and 3.0 closer than suggested by some in this forum. If I'm incorrect or mis-stating anything please let me know. thanks

Originally Posted by ncsucarjock88

Simple math.

15,000 miles a year.

20mpg for the 3.0 avg; 750 gallons x 2.00 = $1500

24mpg for the 3.0D - avg; 625 gallons x 2.20 = $1375

But...the Diesel also gets to 60 in 7.2 seconds, versus the gassers 8 seconds...

and has more torque, and I suspect though i've not driven one, better performance around town...

Now...let's assume you drive like me:

30k miles a year, with a lead foot. I average 14mpg out of the 4.4i I have, in town, and 19 on the highway. So, overall a 17.5 mpg. Past experience has proven that even with a smaller engine, I"ll get very similar fuel economy, because i'm giving it the boot all the time...whereas, the V8 has enough power that I'm not *always* dogging it, just most of the time.

I'd expect real world mileage of the diesel for me to be about 22mpg or so. Highway would be more, in town a little less, but 22mpg is probably a good figure.

17.5mpg (V8) at 30,000 miles/year = 1714 gallons x 2.00 = 3428 At $5/gallon its 8570 for the gasser

22mpg (diesel) at 30,000 miles/year = 1364 gallons x 2.20 = 3000. at $5.20/gallon is 7093 for the diesel

But...the new diesels qualify for a tax rebate of $1800.

So...yes...the diesel will probably save you money, especially over the long haul and if you do a lot of driving. For me, the extra mid-range torque would negate the need for a thirstier V8, with little loss of overall performance. The tax credit is nice. And when fuel goes back up, the difference will increase dramatically.

Why don't I have one? Can you see putting 30k on a new car in the first year? The depreciation would kill me. I'm looking forward to a couple years from now, when the diesels are available as CPO vehicle, and I'm ready to upgrade from my '04 4.4i.

Originally Posted by CDahl

I (and probably most who buy an X5) pay the Alternate Minimum Tax (AMT) so I don't qualify for tax rebate (bye bye $1800).

The AMT limitation has been suspended for the tax credit for the 2009 tax year, and I believe the 2010 tax year (not 100% sure about 2010), e.g., even if you pay AMT, you can take the alternative fuel tax credit.


But I bought the Diesel for performance vs. the 3.0... the fact that the Diesel is now less expensive than the 3.0 and gets better MPG are just a bonus to me.

As for AdBlue cost, it is expected to cost $3-4 a gallon in a year or two after the over-the-road diesels start using it.

Originally Posted by CDahl

My calculation is a bit different. ..... That assumes diesel and premium gas stay at parity (though within the past year or so I have seen diesel going for as much as $1/gallon above premium which would obviously eliminate any mpg benefit ) ....

There is no fundamental economic (refining/transporting/marketing) reason for diesel to cost more than premium over the long haul. From what I've read, the higher prices for diesel last year were due to the oil companies passing on the costs of converting over to ULSD. Of course, rational pricing is always a hope and not always a reality

ULSD diesel is as available as premium gasoline in our rural area. It is a little more scarce in the nearby metro area. But we have always been in the habit of using only a few stations (out of hundreds) anyway. So finding a couple of well maintained diesel stations in the nearby metro area, that we can use to fill up when we are there, was not a big deal to us.

I plan on keeping this vehicle but after 4 years BMW maintenance is up so I have to pay for Adblue . I did a quick search and it seems like the stuff goes for about $15/half gallon. BMW 35d requires 6 gallons of Adblue ,so theres another $180 every 11,000 miles. Thats assuming I can do myself and don't need special BMW Adblue stuff ,otherwise you can probably double that cost. (oh if you don't refill at 11,000 the X5 35d will not start. Thats right-NO GO!! ) . The Adblue system is a whole other fluid system unique to the 35d. Thats more things to go wrong. I understand 6 gallon Adblue tank takes some room from luggage space in the 35d . Also the Adblue fluid freezes below 15 degrees so need to run a heater when it gets cold. There is also increase maintenance on injectors and other parts with diesel. Considering above seems to offset most of any fuel savings. .....

These figures are probably high. First AdBlue is just a fancy German brand name for generic Diesel Emissions Fluid that will be used in lots of trucks here in the US. The price you got was probably for the small, very complicated (bowling pin shaped) bottle that BMW sells and approves for owners to top up the smaller DEF tank. BMW (and others) sell larger, simple containers at much lower/gal pricing. The process of renewing the DEF will probably become standard procedure at independent shops by the time anyone's 35d initial warranty runs out.

The 35d uses 2 DEF tanks. Neither of these tanks take away any luggage/storage space. The larger one is not heated and the DEF can freeze in that tank. But the smaller one is heated and should last about 1,000mi. So even in very cold weather, you only need to get your X5 to "warmer climes" every 1,000 mi. or have a spare bottle of warm DEF to top up the heated tank until it gets warmer in your area

In the end, everyone has to make up their own mind based on their own ideas/circumstances. As I posted earlier, if BMW had not offered a diesel X5, we would be driving a Mercedes ML BlueTec today.

Funf Dreisig

Originally Posted by The BoatMan

4500 cash incentive being offered makes it cheaper than the base X530i for now...

I seriously considered the 35d, due to the added torque and gas mileage. Unfortunately, the $3500+ price difference was a factor. Plus my wife didn't like the idea of a diesel - smell and noise. Despite not experiencing either of those problems during our test drive, she still was against the 35d. Since I don't tow anything, I chose the 3.0. I have been pleased so far. When I need an adrenalin rush, I go drive my 335i.

I was ticked to learn about the $4500 eco credit that was offered a month or so after I received my 3.0. If it had been available when I bought my 3.0, it would have been a no-brainer to get the 35d. If something ever happens to my 3.0 and I need to get a replacement, it will definitely be the diesel.

1. The 'performance' aspect is not reflected accurately in a 0-60 spec. At least when one looks at 6.2 versus 7.0, the uninitiated think it is virtually a tie... but the actual fact is that when driving you are more likely to simply need to maintain 65 up a steep grade, or run 55-75mph to pass- THAT performance metric is hard to quantify, and is the root of the driving experience. IMHO.

2. I suspect that in a few years it will be possible to program the DME to defeat the 'out of urea' interlock... just saying...

3. As Funf says, there will be lower prices for fluid that works just fine- for those that need the comfort of a BMW label, it will cost you.

A

Originally Posted by ard

....when driving you are more likely to simply need to maintain 65 up a steep grade, or run 55-75mph to pass- THAT performance metric is hard to quantify, and is the root of the driving experience. IMHO.....

I agree wholeheartedly. The gas versions have to drop a gear and wind up the RPM. Meanwhile the 35d calmly kicks butt and takes names.

Yes, the price sure can varry from station to station so one has to chop around. Gasbuddy.com is great for that. On average, diesel is running slightly cheaper than premium, here in Little Rock.

Originally Posted by ct545i

I'm probably one of very few, if not the only one, to like the BMW diesel engine enough to own both x5 35d and 335d. I've had the 335d since early March (fabulous vehicle) and I just traded my wife's 07 Volvo XC90 3.2 for a demo X5 35d with only 26 miles. I got a very fair value for the XC90 and the X5 for $7k under invoice (yes, $7k under invoice! - only because the car was officially put in service back in Feb. when there was a special demo program giving $2.5k to dealer) - I could not resist that. Have I mentioned that I love the BMW bi-turbo diesel engine?...

Hey CT545, you must then be the perfect person to ask this question to: I read somewhere that the engine in the 335d is not as audible as in the X5d. Is that true? If it is, does anyone know if that is due to better engine bay isolation, cabin isolation, or both?

There is no need to torture yourselves over "payback!" With manufacturer incentives and/or tax credits factored in, and probably even without those, it is very probable that a high percentage (if not all) of the extra cost paid up front for a diesel motor will easily be returned at future trade or sale time. I have traded by 08 X5 3.0 for a ' 10 VW Touareg diesel, and having now experienced 400+ ft/lbs of torque and 28 mpg @ 80 mph, I would never go back to a gas motor.

Forget about the increased fuel economy or cost savings... the X5 35d is a better overall vehicle than the X5 3.0si. That engine is just about perfect for the X5's mission.

The only downside is a slight lag during initial throttle tip-on. I'm replacing out 3.0-liter with a diesel in 18 months.

- Mike

I've been driving a 2009 X5d for about two months, 1600-some miles on the odo now, and agree completely with the pro-diesel posts. Mileage: 21-22MPG in town, 26-27MPG on highway trips. The available torque is remarkable and I give a +1 to the post above about not needing to downshift when keeping constant velocity on an uphill road. Handling with the 09 Sport Package (includes Adaptive Drive) is remarkably good for a 5000 pound vehicle. It's not a 3er, but my family situation needed a vehicle to haul four people and a 50 pound dog, or, 4-5 kids to an out of town soccer game. There's not another vehicle that offers the same combination of interior room for five + a large internal cargo space, strong acceleration, great handling for its size, and remarkable fuel economy considering its mass. You could call those needs a "compromise," but the X5d is one heckuva way to define that word. The overall package is impressive.

Originally Posted by CHC

I give a +1 to the post above about not needing to downshift when keeping constant velocity on an uphill road. .

I've said it a few times, so I'll try to limit myself after this one, but it really is amazing to me how the diesel can accelerate going uphill with minimal downshifting. The V8 is certainly faster by the stopwatch, but it needs to get the RPMs up to match the diesel under load.

As long as it is as reliable as the gasoline engines, I'll be happy if it has the same operating costs as the 3.0 gasoline engine.

In my area - diesel prices vary widely, but I have been able to find it readily at about the same price as Special Unleaded. I drive mostly local, and I am getting about 21mpg versus the barely 14mpg I was getting on my BMW 4.6. This car has similar power to that, but is getting 50% more MPG. So Diesel wouild have to be pretty high versus super for me not to think of this being a better alternative. Sure there are more fuel efficient vehicles, but I wanted a BMW and an SUV so for me this has been just great. I do think the car is louder than the gas version - but I kind of like the sound of it.

For those people in search of the cheapest diesel prices in their area, this site has been helpful:

http://autos.msn.com/everyday/GasStationsBeta.aspx

Originally Posted by AzNMpower32

Honestly, I don't understand why anyone gets the 3.0si model, maybe someone can explain this to me. Just my €0,02.

Agree I would get an X3 if I wanted the 3.0-liter engine.

Norm, the X3 is a lot smaller, not as "plush" inside, driver height is lower, and it rides a whole lot worse than the X5 3.0. For all that, it is cheaper and a useful little utility wagon, though I wish the rear hatch was split like the X5.

We are in the midst of selling our 08 4.8i and replacing it with a 35d.

We put about 32000 km per year on going back and forth to our cottage. Recently I did a pretty extensive analysis of the cost benefit of the diesel vs the V8 and talked myself out of the diesel on cost basis alone.

When I was about to purchase the 35d out of my own pocket the savings were negligable once all the costs were in. I think I estimated it would only save me about $200 a month overall. Hardly worth it.

Then my company offered to buy the vehicle for me and it became a no brainer.

A buddy has a 35d and routinely gets 1000km out of a tank on the highway and around 800 in the city. This is in comparison to our 4.8 which on its best day gets 560 on the highway and 420 in the city.

I love the V8 in the 4.8i and if I could afford to I'd keep them both and leave the M3 in the garage all winter. It won't be much of a hardship to drive it until I sell it though.

But at the end of the day the fuel savings alone wouldn't have convinced me to buy it.

I am really looking forward to the 35d, which hopefully, I'll pick up tomorrow evening. It has a few more options than our 4.8 (ones that I have in the M3 but not in the 4.8) so it will be nice to have the comfort access, nav and the sport package (beefy steering wheel).

Comfort access is one of those options I would have never ordered but my M3 had it anyway (no choice Canadian spec comes with it). After a year and a bit with it I really notice not having it on the 4.8. I'm forever leaving the key in the ignition and walking away from the vehicle.

This thread suggests comparison of diesel fuel prices to premium gasoline. The X5 owners manual indicates minimum aki of 89 is acceptable for 2010 x5 3.0 (and about 20 cents/gallon cheaper than premium!).

Here in Australia it reached about 15c a litre more than petrol (3.71 ltrs per US gal) and it was about break even then. So at 20c a gal your in front. As more people drive them in CA the cost will come down. Here it is cheaper now than petrol by a few cents a ltr so a good saving.