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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #26  
Old 04-28-2010, 10:59 AM
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So what is the difference between Axxis Deluxe and Akebono Euro?
Anyone run them both, to make an informed comment?
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  #27  
Old 04-28-2010, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hxgaser View Post
Modern brake works not by rubbing the pad against the rotor. The theory is that the pad compound actually gets embedded in rotor. And it is that compound against the same compound that works the brake. That is why the bedding procedure is very important.
Agreed. AFAIK, what we mere drivers call braking "friction" is mainly due to chemical bonds of bedded-brake-on-rotor against brake pad surface breaking and remaking themselves, with heat energy poured out as a result of the friction caused as the bonds break and remake themselves over and over again (covalent bonds IIRC???).

I don't quite understand how chemical bonds breaking and making themselves cause enough friction to stop a speeding BMW E39 - but IIRC, it's all explained in the rebedding PDFs at this thread.

Quote:
you should run same pad compounds for both front and back
Yup. When I researched how I could compare friction materials in use on my E39, I ran into these experimental testing results for Police-use brake pads, which, IIRC, concluded the single most important factor in stopping power for replacement pads was similar materials front and rear!

- Detailed report by the National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center titled:Replacement Brake Pad Performance Evaluation Project National Institute of Justice/Michigan State Police (dated March 2001)
- Summary report of the Equipment Performance Report: 2000 Evaluation of Replacement Brake Pads for Police Patrol Vehicles (dated February 2001)

So, given that the most important factor may be similar materials front and rear, and bearing in mind the OEM Jurid 187 (fronts) & OEM Textar T4071 (rear) combo, do the Axxis Deluxe crowds recommend Axxis Deluxe on both axles (or just the front which dusts the most in the OEM configuration?

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  #28  
Old 04-28-2010, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Agreed. AFAIK, what we mere drivers call braking "friction" is mainly due to chemical bonds of bedded-brake-on-rotor against brake pad surface breaking and remaking themselves, with heat energy poured out as a result of the friction caused as the bonds break and remake themselves over and over again (covalent bonds IIRC???).

I don't quite understand how chemical bonds breaking and making themselves cause enough friction to stop a speeding BMW E39 - but IIRC, it's all explained in the rebedding PDFs at this thread.



Yup. When I researched how I could compare friction materials in use on my E39, I ran into these experimental testing results for Police-use brake pads, which, IIRC, concluded the single most important factor in stopping power for replacement pads was similar materials front and rear!

- Detailed report by the National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center titled:Replacement Brake Pad Performance Evaluation Project National Institute of Justice/Michigan State Police (dated March 2001)
- Summary report of the Equipment Performance Report: 2000 Evaluation of Replacement Brake Pads for Police Patrol Vehicles (dated February 2001)

So, given that the most important factor may be similar materials front and rear, and bearing in mind the OEM Jurid 187 (fronts) & OEM Textar T4071 (rear) combo, do the Axxis Deluxe crowds recommend Axxis Deluxe on both axles (or just the front which dusts the most in the OEM configuration?

Blue, I thought that the "slice" as you call it is cut in such a way as to balance the rotor. Not to check how much life left of the said rotor. I thought once the pad wears out (if it's OEM), the rotor is pretty much toast - as in "you cannot resurface it" due to thickness limitation / piston caliper movement
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  #29  
Old 04-28-2010, 02:54 PM
bmwm3coupe bmwm3coupe is offline
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I have used both the OEM pads and I have been using Axxis Ultimate for the last 8 years on 3 different BMW's ('02 M3, '05 330i, '00 540i), and I feel that hands-down the Axxis Ultimate pads have more bite/braking torque and better feel than the stock pads.
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  #30  
Old 04-28-2010, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doru View Post
Blue, I thought that the "slice" as you call it is cut in such a way as to balance the rotor. Not to check how much life left of the said rotor. I thought once the pad wears out (if it's OEM), the rotor is pretty much toast - as in "you cannot resurface it" due to thickness limitation / piston caliper movement
Yes, the question in the referenced photo was answered in the original thread where the picture reference came from. You are right.

I was too lazy to create a NEW picture by blanking out the question (sorry for the confusion it caused).

BTW, since it was so hard to find ANY decently scientific comparison of replacement brake pads, I took the liberty of removing security from the 200-page detailed brake-pad-comparison PDFs recommended above so that I could shrink them down to the 1K limit imposed by the admins here.

I haven't read these reports in years but IIRC, an important criteria was matching the fronts and the rears with respect to brake pad materials.

They tested the Hawkheads; but not the Axxis Deluxe Advanced nor the Axxis Ultimates or Akebono Euro Ceramics. They didn't even test the original OEM Jurid 187 (front) & OEM Textar T4071 (rear).

If anyone can find a SCIENTIFIC (please!) comparative report on any of those most-recommended pads, I would be very happy to see it before I go and buy my next brake pads (my red brake light is on at the moment).


PS: (I wish the moderators would allow me 1.5K; it would make it sooo much less work to post useful PDFs which get removed off the Internet in their original places).
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  #31  
Old 04-28-2010, 03:04 PM
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doru doru is offline
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WOW Donna!!!!
You do lots of research here!!!

Thank you in the name of all the forum members.
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  #32  
Old 04-28-2010, 03:06 PM
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Jason5driver Jason5driver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwm3coupe View Post
I have used both the OEM pads and I have been using Axxis Ultimate for the last 8 years on 3 different BMW's ('02 M3, '05 330i, '00 540i), and I feel that hands-down the Axxis Ultimate pads have more bite/braking torque and better feel than the stock pads.
THIS is what I wanted to hear/ read!
THANK YOU!

What rotors are you using?

I am also looking at the Performance Friction Z-rated brake pads that Bimmerworld sells.

Thank you!
Jason
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  #33  
Old 04-28-2010, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doru View Post
So what is the difference between Axxis Deluxe and Akebono Euro?
Anyone run them both, to make an informed comment?
I've used the OEM (Jurid), Axxis Deluxe and the Akebono Euro. I found the Jurids to have the best initial brake bite and a very linear feel on the brake pedal. A great brake pad but they were very dusty. If I was an aggressive or hard driver, I would probably stay with these pads. Since my hard driving days are long past, my priorities are to NOT have to clean my wheels on a weekly basis. I had the Axxis on my previous e39 and found they gave up some brake bite and did not have that same linear pedal feel but were nearly dustless. They were prone to the occasional squealing which was cured by rebedding the pads. I am actually running a mix of Akebonos on the front and Axxis Ultimate on the rear on my current e39. I don't think the mixing of pad types makes a big difference as many change out fronts well before they change the rears, resulting in a mismatched set. I found the Euros have a similar feel to the Axxis and are also nearly dust free with no squealing. I found that the difference in pedal feel is noticeable but does not really affect braking performance as you subconsciously adjust to the required pedal pressure required, similar to renting a car. In a direct comparison, I would highly doubt that someone could tell the difference between these two pads. In terms of braking distance, unless you measured this performance it is difficult to qualitatively differentiate between pads (which raises the question that shouldn't braking distance be equal, irrespective of pad type, with the use of ABS as you just need to lock them up (which every brake system should do)?). All things considered, both pads are similar and represent a reasonable near dustless alternative.

Last edited by Fudman; 04-28-2010 at 05:47 PM.
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  #34  
Old 04-28-2010, 06:30 PM
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As always, Fudman, your posts are awsome.
Thank you. Informative and to the point.
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  #35  
Old 04-28-2010, 06:35 PM
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platinum911911 platinum911911 is offline
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best pads I have ever had POSI QUIET . . . Next on my list AXXIS
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  #36  
Old 04-28-2010, 10:14 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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I can't possibly knock anyone's description of why one pad feels better to them than another ... as I plumb can't tell the difference.

But, having said that, the four "scientific" tests (in the Police report), were:

45 pts - High-operating-temp braking performance & fade resistance test
25 pts - Normal-operating-temperature braking performance test
20 pts - Panic stop (antilock brake mode) test
10 pts - Ambient-temperature (cold) braking performance test
Total = 100 pts

I really can't comprehend how anyone can judge these things by feel.

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  #37  
Old 04-29-2010, 05:13 AM
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Qualitatively speaking, I agree, it is very hard to judge a brake pad's performance, especially when there is no baseline of comparison. My comments reflect the timeframe when you have just changed your pads out and can notice the difference between the old and the new. I found the difference to be noticeable but not significant and you completely adjust to the different feel within a short time. One thing I did not mention is that I believe the "feel" of a brake pad will change slightly over time. Again, impossible to quantify and nearly impossible to qualitatively describe, however, I find my Euros to feel "better" (more like OEM) over time. I did not get this change with the Axxis. Probably my imagination, just like hearing the difference after a Vanos seal change, as I am clearly no Michael Schumacher.

NLECTC performs various product evaluations for law enforcement so their brake pad evaluations are primarily applicable to police applications. Unless you engage in high speed pursuits, track your car, or live high on a mountaintop, the first most heavily weighted test (high operating temp and fade resistance) does not really apply to most casual street drivers. The last three tests are most applicable to casual street drivers, however, these test result components do not appear to be extractable from their data. Hence, their pad recommendations are not really applicable to the casual driver.

The recent Car & Driver has a good article on brake pad failure on a sporty street Nissan that was tracked. This stock car used Akebonos which completely failed due to repeated high speed braking applications. This is an extreme example as they were able to make their brake fluid BOIL! Note: e39s use Type IV brake fluid so this is less of a risk for us!

Bottom line: Folks should set up their brakes for how they will be used. For casual drivers like myself, low dust is my priority followed by performance. For a state trooper or track car, a different brake setup (pads, rotors, fluid, etc.) is probably desirable to maximize safety.
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  #38  
Old 04-29-2010, 06:37 AM
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WHITE E39 WHITE E39 is offline
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i have used Axxis brake pads for a long time on many different cars with no problems. i don't like to have dirty wheels the same day i wash the car and Axxis helps so much that i can go a week without cleaning the wheels.

the biggest difference for me is that you have to heat any ceramic pads. i feel that just driving a few blocks (stop & go) warms the pad up to perform the same as oem pads but without all the dust.

so if you start off the oem pad will have a better initial brake bite while cold but when the ceramic pad is heated just a few mins i feel that the braking becomes the same.

not to long ago my cusin was going crazy with all the brake dust on his 2008 535xi that only had 8k mls. the car is covered until 100k mls. at that time no one made dustlees pads for the rear.

i went to Bill at Bimmerclinic in NJ for help, he ordered a set of Textar pads (no dust) for front and rear. when all installed i couldn't tell the diff even before warming them up or even bedding them.

after a few weeks i took the car on a +200 ml trip, when i got home the first thing i checked was his 20" chrome wheels. no dust at all even that his car is heavier with 20's and i drove it well over 100mph (i won't tell here) and pushed it most of the way.

even that i love the Axxis pads, my next brake job will have Textar pads and i hope they work as well.
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  #39  
Old 04-29-2010, 10:27 AM
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Jason5driver Jason5driver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudman View Post
Qualitatively speaking, I agree, it is very hard to judge a brake pad's performance, especially when there is no baseline of comparison. My comments reflect the timeframe when you have just changed your pads out and can notice the difference between the old and the new. I found the difference to be noticeable but not significant and you completely adjust to the different feel within a short time. One thing I did not mention is that I believe the "feel" of a brake pad will change slightly over time. Again, impossible to quantify and nearly impossible to qualitatively describe, however, I find my Euros to feel "better" (more like OEM) over time. I did not get this change with the Axxis. Probably my imagination, just like hearing the difference after a Vanos seal change, as I am clearly no Michael Schumacher.

NLECTC performs various product evaluations for law enforcement so their brake pad evaluations are primarily applicable to police applications. Unless you engage in high speed pursuits, track your car, or live high on a mountaintop, the first most heavily weighted test (high operating temp and fade resistance) does not really apply to most casual street drivers. The last three tests are most applicable to casual street drivers, however, these test result components do not appear to be extractable from their data. Hence, their pad recommendations are not really applicable to the casual driver.

The recent Car & Driver has a good article on brake pad failure on a sporty street Nissan that was tracked. This stock car used Akebonos which completely failed due to repeated high speed braking applications. This is an extreme example as they were able to make their brake fluid BOIL! Note: e39s use Type IV brake fluid so this is less of a risk for us!

Bottom line: Folks should set up their brakes for how they will be used. For casual drivers like myself, low dust is my priority followed by performance. For a state trooper or track car, a different brake setup (pads, rotors, fluid, etc.) is probably desirable to maximize safety.
These are all good points, but I really could care less about the brake dust.
Most opinions/ reviews from guys are always complaining about brake dust.

I am more concerned with the braking power/ braking torque being better than the OEM brakes (Jurid front pads, and Textar rear pads).

The OEM brakes are already amazing as is (stock).
If I am replacing the OEM stuff, it BETTER be an improvement over the OEM stuff!

Quote:
Originally Posted by WHITE E39 View Post
i have used Axxis brake pads for a long time on many different cars with no problems. i don't like to have dirty wheels the same day i wash the car and Axxis helps so much that i can go a week without cleaning the wheels.

the biggest difference for me is that you have to heat any ceramic pads. i feel that just driving a few blocks (stop & go) warms the pad up to perform the same as oem pads but without all the dust.

All of you guys are referencing "Axxis pads", but fail to mention which Axxis pad...

I know the Axxis Ultimates are supposed to be superior to the Axxis Deluxe pads.
I am looking at the Axxis Ultimate pads.

Thanks!
Jason

so if you start off the oem pad will have a better initial brake bite while cold but when the ceramic pad is heated just a few mins i feel that the braking becomes the same.

not to long ago my cusin was going crazy with all the brake dust on his 2008 535xi that only had 8k mls. the car is covered until 100k mls. at that time no one made dustlees pads for the rear.

i went to Bill at Bimmerclinic in NJ for help, he ordered a set of Textar pads (no dust) for front and rear. when all installed i couldn't tell the diff even before warming them up or even bedding them.

after a few weeks i took the car on a +200 ml trip, when i got home the first thing i checked was his 20" chrome wheels. no dust at all even that his car is heavier with 20's and i drove it well over 100mph (i won't tell here) and pushed it most of the way.

even that i love the Axxis pads, my next brake job will have Textar pads and i hope they work as well.
Which Textar pads?
There are Ceramic Textars pads too.
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  #40  
Old 04-29-2010, 10:56 AM
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WHITE E39 WHITE E39 is offline
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Jason
i could get you the info in a few days when i go to see my cuz or you can call Bill at 1-732-218-7632 he's a great guy that works on all BMW's. i'm sure he'll be able to give you the part # for the E39
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  #41  
Old 04-29-2010, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason5driver View Post
I am more concerned with the braking power/ braking torque being better than the OEM brakes (Jurid front pads, and Textar rear pads).

The OEM brakes are already amazing as is (stock).
If I am replacing the OEM stuff, it BETTER be an improvement over the OEM stuff!
I guess the question is what constitutes an improvement in braking. I only say this because there is much discussion and confusion regarding what constitutes "good braking".

Braking capability is typically expressed as braking distance. The shorter, the better. In the old days (pre-ABS), minimizing braking distances depended on driver input to modulate the brake pedal to prevent skidding. However, nowadays, everyone can apply maximum brake pressure but just hammering the brake pedal and letting the ABS modulate the brake pressure. This is why I said: "which raises the question that shouldn't braking distance be equal, irrespective of pad type, with the use of ABS as you just need to lock them up (which every brake system should do". However, braking capability also includes tire grip in the equation as well as any brake mods (BBK, etc). Nearly every braking system is capable of locking up your wheels at virtually any speed if your ABS is turned off. The ABS prevents wheel lockup so it ultimately controls the amount of braking pressure applied to the brake rotor. Therefore, if your tires are the same and you just hammer the brake pedal, shouldn't your ABS modulate the braking "power" such that you will not lock the brakes and your braking distance should not change, irrespective of type of pads? I don't know the answer to this but logically, this makes sense. If this is true, then brake pad type really makes little difference wrt minimizing braking distance. But this only applies to maximum braking situations. For overall braking performance, I totally agree with you that the OEM pad sets are great for brake bite and feel. However, I cannot quantify those judgements. The vast majority of our braking, whether track or street, is done at less than maximum braking power (ABS not engaged). Hence, what you are really saying is you want to maximize the subjective intangibles of brake bite or that linear feel and not raw braking power, which is really governed by the ABS.
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  #42  
Old 04-29-2010, 12:57 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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I love the dialog!

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  #43  
Old 04-29-2010, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WHITE E39 View Post
Jason
i could get you the info in a few days when i go to see my cuz or you can call Bill at 1-732-218-7632 he's a great guy that works on all BMW's. i'm sure he'll be able to give you the part # for the E39

I know.
I have talked to him.
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  #44  
Old 06-17-2010, 07:07 PM
occhis occhis is offline
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Present pads are Axxis Ultimate w/oem rotors. Very satisfied customer. Very good bite, even wear, no noise. Still have dust but not near as much as Jurids. Over 40K and still have lots of material left. My 85 mile daily commute is almost all highway and rural roads, so I get lots of mileage from a set of pads. The softest pads I ever had were the EBC Greenstuff. Low mileage and did not have good bite at all.
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  #45  
Old 06-17-2010, 11:12 PM
rashid rashid is offline
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Originally Posted by SPLITSENSETAM View Post
Same here ..i like oem ..i acually dont mind cleaning my rims once every 2 weeks.
Also same here ...
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  #46  
Old 06-18-2010, 02:53 AM
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paferri paferri is offline
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Textar ceramic fusions paired with brembo rotors....very happy with bite and low dust
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