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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #51  
Old 08-02-2010, 06:32 AM
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dalekressin dalekressin is offline
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The car is too big and floats down the road. It is fast.
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  #52  
Old 08-02-2010, 08:18 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richschneid View Post
I have never had adjustable side bolsters on any of my four bimmers and have never had a problem with "sliding around when" cornering at speed. Maybe that's why they no longer offer it. Besides, the picture of the active ventilated seats on the BMW website appears to indicate that the side bolstering is a little larger than on the standard seats. I guess you have to actually sit in them to actually determine whether or not this is the case.
Imo you should not need IAS, ventilated seats or M-sport to get a sporty feel from the car. The sport package should at a minimum give you a sporty steering wheel, a tight seat, fat rims/tires and roll stabilizers. It's kind of why it's there. Bmw simply messed up the sport pkg on this one. At least the rims and tires are very nice. Btw I would not change back to the E60 if I had a choice since the F10 kicks it's butt in so many areas but these simple fundamental mistakes are still a bit hard to swallow.
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  #53  
Old 08-02-2010, 10:35 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Imo you should not need IAS, ventilated seats or M-sport to get a sporty feel from the car. The sport package should at a minimum give you a sporty steering wheel, a tight seat, fat rims/tires and roll stabilizers. It's kind of why it's there. Bmw simply messed up the sport pkg on this one. At least the rims and tires are very nice. Btw I would not change back to the E60 if I had a choice since the F10 kicks it's butt in so many areas but these simple fundamental mistakes are still a bit hard to swallow.
The DHP includes ARS and the sport package inckudes fat tires and wheels. The sport steering wheel looks fine to me in the pictures compared to the standard wheel. Not everyone wants the "sporty feel", so they shouldn't have to pay for something they don't want. So, if you want a "sporty feel", like you and I do, then we just need to order the proper equipment to get it. I think BMW should give people the option of not paying for something they don't want. If you didn't order the ARS and larger tires I wouldn't blame BMW for that. They did offer it to you. So, I guess your complaints are limited to the steering wheel and seats. I'm getting the active ventilated seats, so I'll find out if they are "tight" enough compared to the "multi contoured" seats of the sport package.
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  #54  
Old 08-02-2010, 12:18 PM
pilotman pilotman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richschneid View Post
The DHP includes ARS and the sport package inckudes fat tires and wheels. The sport steering wheel looks fine to me in the pictures compared to the standard wheel. Not everyone wants the "sporty feel", so they shouldn't have to pay for something they don't want. So, if you want a "sporty feel", like you and I do, then we just need to order the proper equipment to get it. I think BMW should give people the option of not paying for something they don't want. If you didn't order the ARS and larger tires I wouldn't blame BMW for that. They did offer it to you. So, I guess your complaints are limited to the steering wheel and seats. I'm getting the active ventilated seats, so I'll find out if they are "tight" enough compared to the "multi contoured" seats of the sport package.
I think the point is that its a little backwards for BMW to require their customers to affirmatively purchase options in order to make the car sporty.

It used to be the other way around, the car is, at its core and most basic level, "the ultimate driving machine" and intended to be one of the sportiest sedans in the world.

Yet, it is much more luxury oriented and handling is compromised unless the customer seeks out the sport options...this is a significant departure from past practice.

Almost Lexus like, assuming customers want luxury first, and adding a sport package is almost an afterthought, i.e. assuming a decent amount of customers don't want sporty handling...
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  #55  
Old 08-02-2010, 01:21 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richschneid View Post
The DHP includes ARS and the sport package inckudes fat tires and wheels. The sport steering wheel looks fine to me in the pictures compared to the standard wheel. Not everyone wants the "sporty feel", so they shouldn't have to pay for something they don't want. So, if you want a "sporty feel", like you and I do, then we just need to order the proper equipment to get it. I think BMW should give people the option of not paying for something they don't want. If you didn't order the ARS and larger tires I wouldn't blame BMW for that. They did offer it to you. So, I guess your complaints are limited to the steering wheel and seats. I'm getting the active ventilated seats, so I'll find out if they are "tight" enough compared to the "multi contoured" seats of the sport package.
Yes the tires are fine but that's the only sport addition that comes with the sport package. There should be a sporty wheel, sporty seats and sporty suspension as well. If that was the case you would have a fine set of packages. Base with PP1/PP2 for the cruisers, ZSP for the sport enthusiasts and ZDH with or without ZSP for the crowd that wants the whole spectrum. Again they unfortunately messed up ZSP.
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  #56  
Old 08-02-2010, 01:32 PM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotman View Post
I think the point is that its a little backwards for BMW to require their customers to affirmatively purchase options in order to make the car sporty.

It used to be the other way around, the car is, at its core and most basic level, "the ultimate driving machine" and intended to be one of the sportiest sedans in the world.

Yet, it is much more luxury oriented and handling is compromised unless the customer seeks out the sport options...this is a significant departure from past practice.

Almost Lexus like, assuming customers want luxury first, and adding a sport package is almost an afterthought, i.e. assuming a decent amount of customers don't want sporty handling...
I think BMW should run the company the way they see fit. It's up to their sales staff and the customer to keep themselves informed about the products they sell and buy. That's what this forum is for. If one is going to spend $70,000 on a car I think it's important to put a significant amount of time and effort into knowing what you are buying. I for one think the company is doing a fantastic job of providing the type of vehicle I want. Without question they make the best cars in the world. NOTHING DRIVES LIKE A BMW. It is without question the "ultimate driving machine".

My 650i is the best car I had ever driven when I bought it. The new 550i, when properly equipped, is much, much better. I think it makes a lot more sense to add the equipment you feel you want than to make it all standard and than have people who don't want something to delete things one at a time. That make absolutely no sense for the average customer.

People who want to drive a high end sports sedan and frequent this blog are not your average customers. It behooves us to know what we are doing. All the information is available before we buy. The best solution for us is to assume you need everything and then make sure you won't regret not getting it. If you want this type of car you need the sport package, the handling package, the sport tranmission, and the active steering if available. If you don't get these then you have no one to blame but yourself. I'm just glad BMW went to all the trouble to engineer these amazing technical devices. No other car company even comes close.
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Last edited by richschneid; 08-02-2010 at 02:14 PM.
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  #57  
Old 08-02-2010, 01:58 PM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Yes the tires are fine but that's the only sport addition that comes with the sport package. There should be a sporty wheel, sporty seats and sporty suspension as well. If that was the case you would have a fine set of packages. Base with PP1/PP2 for the cruisers, ZSP for the sport enthusiasts and ZDH with or without ZSP for the crowd that wants the whole spectrum. Again they unfortunately messed up ZSP.
The sport package does come with better seats and steering wheel. This is the copy and paste from the BMW website.

"Sport Package $2,200

19" Light alloy V-spoke wheels style 331-with performance run-flat tires

Sports leather steering wheel

Three-spoke leather-wrapped steering wheel featuring power til/telescoping adjustments, lets you keep both hand on the steering wheel while adjusting the radio as well Bluetooth enabled mobile pohone (if so equipped).
European Image shown

Multi-contour seats

18-way power Multi-contour front seats conform to your body to provide optimum support and exceptional comfort over long distances. In addition to horizontal, vertical and angled adjustments, Multi-contour seats include an articulated upper backrest, Comfort headrest (two-way power, two-way manual "relax headrest"), and four way power-adjustable lumbar support. Both driver's and front-passenger's seats include memory function.

Increased top speed limiter

Shadowline exterior trim"

I think this is exactly what you asked for.
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  #58  
Old 08-02-2010, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
I can't figure out all the complaints about the electric power steering. I suppose that's because I haven't driven the car on regular streets in everyday driving. The steering felt to me just like I expect BMW steering to feel when I drove the car on an autocross circuit at a BMW UDE. I drove the car around that circuit 12 times. This was a base 535, with none of the electronic "goodies". It really blew away the competition that they had there, a Lexus GS460 and a Merc E350. The Lexus was better than the Merc, which was a real dog. It was hard to believe this is what they produced with a totally new redesign.
I agree that the F10 will blow away any MB or Lexus. However, I don't think it feels as good as the E39 or E60. I do enjoy my 550i with the engine and the interior.
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  #59  
Old 08-02-2010, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by 2008550I View Post
- I wonder if the new engines are more susceptible to "tightness" - meaning they'll become a lot more fuel efficient when run in. There are definitely more moving parts with the turbos etc. Then again, do we really care about gas mileage?

Since I reached 2K in miles, my city mileage has gone from ~16.5 to 17.7.

Going in we should all realize that this car is not a GEO Metro and if mileage is your concern - step away from this car.....[/QUOTE]

I have been pleasently surprised with the mileage on the 550i. Took a 200 mile road trip and got 25.4 mpg. I should have got the 4.4 twin turbo in my X5 3.5 since it struggles to get 20 on the highway.
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  #60  
Old 08-02-2010, 03:00 PM
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TJPark01 TJPark01 is offline
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Originally Posted by E60 550i View Post
I agree that the F10 will blow away any MB or Lexus. However, I don't think it feels as good as the E39 or E60. I do enjoy my 550i with the engine and the interior.
Exactly! OK, so you hate the F10, what else you gonna buy? A Porsche Panamera?
No perfect car exists. All the other cars in it's class all have faults and strengths of their own. For me, this car was the least faulty out of all my choices.
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  #61  
Old 08-02-2010, 03:23 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by richschneid View Post
The sport package does come with better seats and steering wheel. This is the copy and paste from the BMW website.

"Sport Package $2,200

19" Light alloy V-spoke wheels style 331-with performance run-flat tires

Sports leather steering wheel

Three-spoke leather-wrapped steering wheel featuring power til/telescoping adjustments, lets you keep both hand on the steering wheel while adjusting the radio as well Bluetooth enabled mobile pohone (if so equipped).
European Image shown

Multi-contour seats

18-way power Multi-contour front seats conform to your body to provide optimum support and exceptional comfort over long distances. In addition to horizontal, vertical and angled adjustments, Multi-contour seats include an articulated upper backrest, Comfort headrest (two-way power, two-way manual "relax headrest"), and four way power-adjustable lumbar support. Both driver's and front-passenger's seats include memory function.

Increased top speed limiter

Shadowline exterior trim"

I think this is exactly what you asked for.
Hahaha, man bmw must love you. I see that they can do no wrong in your eyes, I wish I was so blinded myself. Yes, it comes with a steering wheel and a seat but imo they are not sporty and do not belong in a sport pkg. I'm not going to argue with you anymore since it's subjective and going nowhere. Just thought I share my personal view which is based on many prior bmws,a few Audis, Saabs and Alfas during 25 years of driving on three continents. Bmw is one of the best, perhaps the best car company with fine cars but they do make mistakes and it is my view that the F10 ZSP is one but it's soooo easy to fix that's why I thought it worth sharing in case someone with influence is checking this forum. I might want to get a new F10 in a couple of years if they get these simple things right.
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  #62  
Old 08-02-2010, 05:12 PM
Beemerup Beemerup is offline
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agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Hahaha, man bmw must love you. I see that they can do no wrong in your eyes, I wish I was so blinded myself. Yes, it comes with a steering wheel and a seat but imo they are not sporty and do not belong in a sport pkg. I'm not going to argue with you anymore since it's subjective and going nowhere. Just thought I share my personal view which is based on many prior bmws,a few Audis, Saabs and Alfas during 25 years of driving on three continents. Bmw is one of the best, perhaps the best car company with fine cars but they do make mistakes and it is my view that the F10 ZSP is one but it's soooo easy to fix that's why I thought it worth sharing in case someone with influence is checking this forum. I might want to get a new F10 in a couple of years if they get these simple things right.
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  #63  
Old 08-02-2010, 05:22 PM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Hahaha, man bmw must love you. I see that they can do no wrong in your eyes, I wish I was so blinded myself. Yes, it comes with a steering wheel and a seat but imo they are not sporty and do not belong in a sport pkg. I'm not going to argue with you anymore since it's subjective and going nowhere. Just thought I share my personal view which is based on many prior bmws,a few Audis, Saabs and Alfas during 25 years of driving on three continents. Bmw is one of the best, perhaps the best car company with fine cars but they do make mistakes and it is my view that the F10 ZSP is one but it's soooo easy to fix that's why I thought it worth sharing in case someone with influence is checking this forum. I might want to get a new F10 in a couple of years if they get these simple things right.
I don't think THEY love me, but I sure love them. THEY really LOVE their cars. It is subjective. The seats and the steering wheel seem fine to me and this will be my fifth BMW since my 1993 740i. The seats are better than on my 650i sport package and the steering wheel is almost identical. The seats in my E39 M5 were better than in my 6, but I really don't notice the difference under hard driving. The steering wheel and steering is better on my 6 than on my M5. The steering on the 550i is much better than on my M5; the M5 had worm and gear the 550i has rack and pinion. I only have 46 years of driving on one continent. I'm sure they will have better optional seats in two or three years for you to get.
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Last edited by richschneid; 08-02-2010 at 05:31 PM.
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  #64  
Old 08-02-2010, 07:39 PM
pharding pharding is offline
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The issues that have been identified and discussed in this thread could be fixed at little to no cost. It is about making a fine car better in the opinions of BMW Enthusiasts that frequent this and other message boards. Just add up the number of BMW's that participants in this thread have purchased in the lat ten years. Our enthusiasm for BMW cars cannot be questioned. We just want SPORTS sedans. Not Lexus wannabes.
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  #65  
Old 08-03-2010, 03:31 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Originally Posted by pharding View Post
The issues that have been identified and discussed in this thread could be fixed at little to no cost. It is about making a fine car better in the opinions of BMW Enthusiasts that frequent this and other message boards. Just add up the number of BMW's that participants in this thread have purchased in the lat ten years. Our enthusiasm for BMW cars cannot be questioned. We just want SPORTS sedans. Not Lexus wannabes.
That is very understandable. But I think you understand that BMW is a business that has to continually try to maintain or increase its market share. It must appeal to buyers like you who emphasize sports and other buyers who emphasize luxury. On the F10 one can add the sports options of ARS, adaptive drive, EDC, active steering, sport steering wheel, sport seats, 19 or 20" wheels with performance tires, M sport package cosmetic sport looks, sport automatic, HUD, and a 407 hp 450 lb ft of torque engine. I think these make a very sporting machine that no one else even comes close to offering at anywhere near the same price.

Sure, it's not perfect. Maybe the sport seats could have adjustable side bolsters and the sports steering wheel could be a little thicker or the on center feel of the steering at 70mph could be a little better. I would also probably prefer Bridgestone Potenza's over the Goodyear Excellence tires. But if you are stiving for more perfection (no Lexus pun intended) you can always bite the bullet and shell out an extra 20 grand and get the new M5. They make that car too. And if I didn't need AWD and active cruise control that's what I would get. And I'm sure that more sporting options will be available as this new generation 5 series matures.

As for me, this is my 5th bimmer since 1992 and I welcome a little more luxury as I age. But this new 550i xDrive is SO much more car, both sports and luxury, than my E39 M5 at about the same price. It's not perfect, but I certainly think its a little outlandish for anyone to suggest that some BMW executives should be FIRED because it's not sporting enough.

Smile, be happy. The F10 is the best mainstream luxury sports sedan ever put into production, even with all its warts.
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Last edited by richschneid; 08-03-2010 at 03:42 AM.
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  #66  
Old 08-03-2010, 04:09 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Just a quick question rich, how many miles do you have in the F10?
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  #67  
Old 08-03-2010, 05:45 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Just a quick question rich, how many miles do you have in the F10?
Only about 15 miles. But I have around 200,000 miles on my other bimmers, '93 740i with EDC, '99 540i with sport package, '00 M5, and '06 650i with sport package and active steering. But I drove the rear drive 550i on city streets and avenues as well as hilly twisty back roads outside of Pittsburgh very hard and fast. Under those conditions it was amazing. I drove it in comfort, normal, and sport and it was better than my 650i in almost every way. It was certainly better than my E39 M5. I certainly didn't notice any problem with the seats or the steering wheel. The steering was extremely accurate and precise, but I don't think it even had the active steering. The sport paddle shifter 8 speed transmission was so much faster shifting than the 6 speed steptronic on my 650. On the hard turns I could downshift precisely to 2nd gear at or near the apex even while in Drive position. And it would automatically go back into drive if I didn't shift manually for a few seconds or so. It will stay in gear if put into manual mode.

I haven't driven it on the highway. But I do know that I have variable ratio variable assist active steering on my 6 and the very high ratio, 18:1, at 75 mph is excellent. The new standard electric steering on the F10 is not active, but it is variable ratio and variable assist and rack and pinion. I suspect the "on center" feel will be a little less but I'm sure I'll get used to it. But rack and pinion is intrinsically better than worm and gear, which was on my E39 M5. I think the four wheel active steering on the rear drive 550i will be amazing but unfortunately it isn't available on the xDrive version. The xDrive will compenate somewhat for the loss of four wheel steering by vectoring torque instantaneously front to rear or rear to front to compensate for oversteer or understeer. And the availability of comfort mode suspension and active ventilated seats on my 6 hour intercity trips will be very welcome.

I think you are correct that one needs to live with a car for awhile to get it's full flavor. So, I have a similar question for you. How much time have you spent driving a full bore F10 550i with DHP, active steering, sport package, sport transmission, and HUD?
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  #68  
Old 08-03-2010, 05:52 AM
pharding pharding is offline
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I have 1200 miles in the F10 and it is my fifth BMW since 2001. My concerns and those of other BMW Enthusiasts and Car and Driver are well founded. Like I said in my original post the F10 is a fine car. There are deficiencies need to be corrected to make it a BMW SPORTS SEDAN as opposed to using your words, a MAINSREAM LUXERY SORTS SEDAN. There were steering issues with the E60 when it was rolled out. BMW Enthusiasts complained and BMW fixed it. I cannot imagine that BMW does not have engineers looking at a number of options for a steering fix right now that are both hardware and software. I cannot imagine that BMW is not looking at software fixes or increased driver control through the I-Drive to give those that want it a firmer sportier feel with trashing the gas mileage. And finally hopefully BMW North America will wake up and smell the coffees and offer the M-Sport Suspension and modify the electronics so that BMW Enthusiasts can tailor the SPORT aspect of the F10 to his/her preferences. As far the suggestion that the BMW Enthusiast that wanted a SPORTS SEDAN buy the M5, for me personally I would never do that because it rewards very poor decisions by BMW that I am confident that will be corrected. People do not buy an expensive BMW to get the driving characteristics of a Mercedes Benz or a Lexus.
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  #69  
Old 08-03-2010, 06:15 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Mein Auto: BMW 550i xDrive
"People do not buy an expensive BMW to get the driving characteristics of a Mercedes Benz or a Lexus."

Do you really think a full bore 550i drives like a MB or Lexus? Of course BMW will always improve the car over time. They always do. Is that the purpose of this blog? I just find it a lot more personally rewarding in life to appreciate what I do have than to focus and carp about what I don't have. Besides I really like the idea that in comfort mode it does drive like a Lexus and in sport mode it drives like a bimmer. When I drive over the potholes in Pittsburgh I want a Lexus. When I drive 6 hours to NYC I also want comfort. When I drive hard and fast in the twisties I want sport or sport plus. This car is amazing.
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550i xDrive/ImperialBlue/Beige/anthracite/DHP/sport/vent seats/convience/cold weather/driver assistance/prem 2/sport trans/fold down rears/4 zone/ACC/HUD/cameras/night vision/ipod and smart integration.

Last edited by richschneid; 08-03-2010 at 06:19 AM.
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  #70  
Old 08-03-2010, 06:55 AM
Nh32010 Nh32010 is offline
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Location: Tampa
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 72
Mein Auto: 2003 BMW 325i
I would explain the shift from a sports sedan to a luxury sedan due to China. The Chinese care mostly about luxury (not primarily about a sporty suspension).
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  #71  
Old 08-03-2010, 07:43 AM
cali42 cali42 is offline
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Location: N.J.
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 12
Mein Auto: 550i s
550i 07 mileage

Hi,
You are right on, about to many driver controls, as mines handles and STEERS SUPERBLY!
But one important point for you to feel better about, is my 07 550i, also only gets about 21.7, which is perfectly normal, although I fully understand your frustration with a newer model, you haveto appreciate you are driving a full V8, and NOT a wannabee twin turbo, as most have opted for on this forum due to price considerations!!! Regards, Dominick, cali42
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  #72  
Old 08-03-2010, 07:51 AM
cali42 cali42 is offline
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Location: N.J.
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 12
Mein Auto: 550i s
Hi,
I would like to mention to you, and everyone else on this forum that, unless you are a tried and true FANATIC regarding sports FEEL at all costs, STAY AWAY from the run-flats that BMW corporate is pushing, as with the increased potholes and over-all road damage, NOTHING beats the FEEL and GIVE as REAL RUBBER-REMEMBER they don't call them "RUN FLATS" for nothing! Regards, Dominick, cali4
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  #73  
Old 08-03-2010, 07:57 AM
jimefam jimefam is offline
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Location: Cumming, GA
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 730
Mein Auto: 2011 550i on order
How realistic is it to think that BMW is going to come up with a "fix" and then retrofit all these cars that have already been sold when the car is selling out everywhere and the reviews have been mostly positive?(obviously car and driver is a huge exception) I just ask because I would love for them to improve the steering and handling of the car as well but having test driven every competitor out there only the panamera turbo felt better and that's not really fair as far as price is concerned. Just seems like it's not that big an issue in the real world as opposed to this relatively small community of enthusiasts.
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  #74  
Old 08-03-2010, 08:03 AM
cali42 cali42 is offline
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Location: N.J.
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 12
Mein Auto: 550i s
Hi,
I guess I am stupid, or in NEED of clarification!!! My 07 550i with sport package and Dinan performance upgrade came with upgrades of power side bolsters and fatter steering wheel! I have the heated seats and steering wheel, and I can tell you from any BMW enthusiasts strict point of view, that my 550i handles and steers like a very precise heart surgeon's SCALPEL!!! The ride feel is so precise, it is almost SCARY!!!!Regards, Dominick, cali42
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  #75  
Old 08-03-2010, 08:55 AM
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markl53 markl53 is offline
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Location: Gaithersburg, MD
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,501
Mein Auto: 2011 535i
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotman View Post
I think the point is that its a little backwards for BMW to require their customers to affirmatively purchase options in order to make the car sporty.

It used to be the other way around, the car is, at its core and most basic level, "the ultimate driving machine" and intended to be one of the sportiest sedans in the world.
I think the sport package, or ZSP, has historically been an option on 3- and 5-series, maybe all series. The "base" is non-sport. Of course, "non sport" on a BMW is more sporting than many other cars, we know. ZSP normally contained wheel and tire upgrades, the much "ballyhooed" sport seats, and some suspension mods. The change with the new 5 I believe is that ZSP alone does not add suspension mods and that is because there are a whole bunch of suspension options that can be selected. It seems like a natural progression to me.
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2014 535i Individual | Azurite Black/Amaro Brown Merino | Premium | Cold | PDC | Rear Camera | Anthracite Hdr
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