BMW dealer wrecks M5 and won't pay for damage

Originally Posted by hpowders

Yeah. Like what? You work for BMW management?

WTH is wrong with you? Why do you feel the need to pick on me on a regular basis? I don't work for BMW or anyone in the automotive industry. I'm just interested in a fair discussion and without knowing the other side, we don't know the whole story or if the M5 owner is being 100% honest.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

WTH is wrong with you? Why do you feel the need to pick on me on a regular basis? I don't work for BMW or anyone in the automotive industry. I'm just interested in a fair discussion and without knowing the other side, we don't know the whole story or if the M5 owner is being 100% honest.

He was just joshing you. hp wants to make sure he keeps his "Favorite Pest" plaque.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

He was just joshing you. hp wants to make sure he keeps his "Favorite Pest" plaque.

Thanks, but he likes to bust my butt on a regular basis these days. I'm not sure why but for certain he's persistent.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

We only have one side of the story. That's all. On the internet things frequently get blown way out of proportion. If what the M5 owner claims is 100% true then the dealer is totally in the wrong and should get in trouble for their lies and deceit. But it would be nice to have a balanced perspective in a situation such as this.

Okay, let's assume for argument sake the OP inflamed the situation. Let's say the dealer should have had the right to fix the car himself. Let's say people shouldn't be allowed to share opinions or information on forums unless they sign-up someone to provide the counterpoint. Assuming all of the previous assumptions could possibly be true, I have one just question. How, under what circumstance, does damaging a customer's property put the dealer in the right? The dealer's defenders are acting as if the dealer has been wronged.

What if the OP took a sledgehammer to a car in the showroom and then offered to fix it himself? No harm, no foul, right? The dealership should gladly take that deal right? I should also assume the dealer wouldn't claim diminished value when he sold this car at a reduced cost, right?

Originally Posted by dunderhi

Okay, let's assume for argument sake the OP inflamed the situation. Let's say the dealer should have had the right to fix the car himself. Let's say people shouldn't be allowed to share opinions or information on forums unless they sign-up someone to provide the counterpoint. Assuming all of the previous assumptions could possibly be true, I have one just question. How, under what circumstance, does damaging a customer's property put the dealer in the right? The dealer's defenders are acting as if the dealer has been wronged.

What if the OP took a sledgehammer to a car in the showroom and then offered to fix it himself? No harm, no foul, right? The dealership should gladly take that deal right? I should also assume the dealer wouldn't claim diminished value when he sold this car at a reduced cost, right?

Or less extreme...you wreck the car on a test drive. I'm sure the dealer will let you fix it, as long as he gets a rental ford taurus for demo drives.


like I said, once people understand the dealer had zero right to be able to repair the mess he caused, the OP did the very BEST thing by getting an independent appraisal.

Originally Posted by dunderhi

Okay, let's assume for argument sake the OP inflamed the situation. Let's say the dealer should have had the right to fix the car himself. Let's say people shouldn't be allowed to share opinions or information on forums unless they sign-up someone to provide the counterpoint. Assuming all of the previous assumptions could possibly be true, I have one just question. How, under what circumstance, does damaging a customer's property put the dealer in the right? The dealer's defenders are acting as if the dealer has been wronged.

What if the OP took a sledgehammer to a car in the showroom and then offered to fix it himself? No harm, no foul, right? The dealership should gladly take that deal right? I should also assume the dealer wouldn't claim diminished value when he sold this car at a reduced cost, right?

I didn't say the dealer is in the right. If the car was damaged under their care, they should bear 100% of the costs to restore it to the condition it was in before the accident.

By the way, if say the OP took a sledgehammer to the car in the showroom he should be prosecuted. That's malicious.

Oohhh, I've been banned for a week on ///5Board. I have to say I didn't realize how great Bimmerfest is. I have an entirely new respect for our management. I've posted a goodly number of opposing views since I've been here. I've never been censored and rarely had my words' meaning twisted into comments/thoughts that really are beyond comprehension. I am completely serious when I say that forum really scares me. I've never seen such a high level of vitriol on any other BMW forum.

Thank you, Bimmerfest management/mods!!!

Originally Posted by dunderhi

Okay, let's assume for argument sake the OP inflamed the situation. Let's say the dealer should have had the right to fix the car himself. Let's say people shouldn't be allowed to share opinions or information on forums unless they sign-up someone to provide the counterpoint. Assuming all of the previous assumptions could possibly be true, I have one just question. How, under what circumstance, does damaging a customer's property put the dealer in the right? The dealer's defenders are acting as if the dealer has been wronged.

What if the OP took a sledgehammer to a car in the showroom and then offered to fix it himself? No harm, no foul, right? The dealership should gladly take that deal right? I should also assume the dealer wouldn't claim diminished value when he sold this car at a reduced cost, right?

No one here on Bimmerfest has defended the "crash dealer". They've only looked at the situation with a dispassionate, reasonable, realistic view point.

Originally Posted by ard

Or less extreme...you wreck the car on a test drive. I'm sure the dealer will let you fix it, as long as he gets a rental ford taurus for demo drives.


like I said, once people understand the dealer had zero right to be able to repair the mess he caused, the OP did the very BEST thing by getting an independent appraisal.

If you wreck a car on a test drive (even if it's an ///M5) the dealer is going to be disappointed and they are going to look straight to you and your insurance company to make them whole. They are probably going to insist the repair be made at a BMW Certified Collision Repair Center, if there is one within a reasonable distance.

I haven't read anyone say the offending dealer should be allowed to repair the car. In fact, since BMW of Dallas has a BMW CCRC, I think they are an excellent choice to do the repair. A sentiment I expressed more than one on that other forum.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I didn't say the dealer is in the right. If the car was damaged under their care, they should bear 100% of the costs to restore it to the condition it was in before the accident.

By the way, if say the OP took a sledgehammer to the car in the showroom he should be prosecuted. That's malicious.

Michael, no fair bringing reasoning into this topic.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

In Tarrant county?


From the pictures I've seen it looks like the car is either currently at or was at BMW of Dallas. Those pics are definitely not taken at Autobahn. But the unknown is were they taken before the car was moved or after.

I'm biased but I would be exceedingly surprised if this happened at Autobahn. I know the GM personally and I know a lot about the owner and this is not the way they would operate. At least I hope not.


Something about this story does not pass the "smell test".

Originally Posted by Lufthansa

Copied this from Lexus GS forum - Dealer is apparently in DFW area:




BMW dealer wrecks M5 and won't pay for damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We complain about our dealerships, but check this out. Everything I've read about bad dealers on this forum pales in comparison with this story.
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...est-drive.html


Quote:
An M5Board forum member took his 2007 BMW M5 to the dealer for brakes and fresh oil. Their 20-year-old tech crashed it during a test drive. The dealership's offering him $2500 in parts. The problem? There's $30,000 in damage.

It's a topic of heated discussion over at M5Board, racking up over 108,000 page views so far and causing a bluster within the M5 community about the whole issue of service and owners rights. There are over 38 pages of commentary but we'll do you the favor of breaking it down to the key details.

The victim here goes by the handle "tjav8b" and this is how the whole thing started out:

Dealership rags my car and wrecks it on a test drive!
Took my car into dealership this morning for a oil/brake change. I get a call a few hours later (not even from the manager of the dealership) that my car had an "accident" while being test driven. They stated the driver hit a patch of sand and slid into the curb at 20mph. Damage...Wheel cracked, tire blown, front end will need repaint and the strut is cracked open. Immediately called B.S. on the story and it was obvious temp manager knew what really happened when I got there but would not admit it. I asked where it happened and he said a few streets behind the dealership. So, I go check out the area and it didn't take long to find it. Around a turn was 30ft of tire marks (no sand) and not only one but two separate curb impacts and coming to rest in a puddle of strut fluid. Total distance from first curb impact to strut puddle was about 120ft! So, it is obvious what happened, the mechanic was out ragging my car and lost control. Manager on duty actually had the balls to mention the lack of treadwear left on my rear tires as being a possible cause! We are talking a 100 degree day and dry as hell! He had nothing to say as to why the mechanic test drove in M mode (full dynamic off)! No M mode, no accident.
I have already told them to not touch anything and do not order anything until I contact them. I have already documented the crash site with video/pictures. Police told me they could not take a report because BMW had moved the car before I got there.
Anyone been in this type of situation before? Suggestions on how I should proceed?
Of course this incites the fires of hell in the commentary, and many suggestions to carefully document the incident, tell the dealer to do nothing until he gets some legal advice and then go from there.

This all took place this weekend. No doubt about it, the mechanic was driving reckless. I measured 110 feet from the point of intial impact to where the car finally stopped. This does not include the brake marks before impact. I forgot to mention this all happened on a 30 mph street.
After confronting the service manager with the evidence they dropped all pretense the damage came about as a result of bad road conditions. The previous claim of sand on the road causing a skid doesn't end with 110 feet of skid marks. The next update is a whopper:

Well...this is how the day went. They are not going to do anything other than have the car fixed. Of course they offered to fix it themselves and give me a loaner. They estimated a parts only cost without painting to be $2500. I talked to the GM (General Manager -Ed.) about depreciation, extended warranty, buying my car, selling me another car, you name it. He said if anything was damaged in the engine/drivetrain they would know it and they didn't find anything. They are not going to budge off of anything they feel like they are not required to. This is all after finally admitting they were grossly negligent and the 20 year old kid trashed my car like a rental! As soon as the owner said absolutlely no to any other option I told them not to do anything to my car, box it up and send to another dealership that another board member helped me out with (thanks again buddy). The GM then said they were going to immediately turn this over to their insurance. Get this, their deductible just happens to be $2500. They acted like this happens all the time and they already have a lot of lawsuits on them.
Contacting my lawyer in the morning for next course of action. I am willing to bet the next dealership is going to find a lot more wrong with this car.


And the next dealership did just that. After removing some body panels for inspection, they found a broken strut, borked inner brace, bent steering gear assembly, damaged rear suspension many instances of body damage, in total about $14,000 in parts and another $16,000 in labor. Currently the boned M5's owner is seeking further legal advice and negotiating with the dealer. One of the most clever parts of this story is how the actual dealer's name has never been mentioned, and that's by design. We're sure a dealership would be willing to work towards an amicable solution rather than have their name anywhere near this debacle. Our guess? It's either Autobahn Motorcars, Moritz BMW or BMW of Dallas given the M5Board member's from Fort Worth, Texas and those are the only three BMW dealers in less than 30 miles.

We'll stay tuned to find out how this all ends.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

That's my exact point. You don't know if the OP reported the facts accurately. No one does. My only argument has been that the treatment the OP claims is a complete contradiction to what I know personally about the dealership's management.

We all know there are two sides to every story. But, apparently with the M5Board members I have committed a terrible sin by questioning whether the OP gave an accurate account of how the interaction happened. Surely emotion couldn't have played any role in how things transpired.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

So does the dealership in this instance. They also have a very good reputation in the area.




Again though, you are assuming the OP stated things exactly as they are and not while still in the "throes" of his frustration and anger, which is how it came off to me. The accident happened on a Saturday and he immediately posted on a public forum of ///M5 enthusiasts. Over the next two days the thread already had eight pages and approx. 75 angry posts before anything really happened. On Monday he refused their plan to repair the car and instructed them to ship it to another dealership. On Tuesday he had already retained a lawer and was stating how he and his lawyer were planning to "crush these guys!" He gave them virtually no time to even do anything. This does not sound to me like a level headed and reasonable response.

I think your instruction note is a good idea.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

My E90 330i has been painted on a fairly large area of the passenger side. Before I bought the car I gave it a very thorough inspection looking for any tell tell signs of repainting. The job was so good I couldn't tell it had been painted. I only found out after I bought the car and found the work order with a bunch of papers that were with the owner's manual in its pouch. I had to decide it didn't really matter much, because there is absolutely no sign of it.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Nobody officially quoted the guy only $2,500 for repairs. That was just something someone said off handedly.

If it's repaired by a BMW Certified Collision Repair Center, which is where it is now, I think they'll be capable of repairing any frame damage if there even is any. It's the suspension the took the hit.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Oohhh, I've been banned for a week on ///5Board. I have to say I didn't realize how great Bimmerfest is. I have an entirely new respect for our management. I've posted a goodly number of opposing views since I've been here. I've never been censored and rarely had my words' meaning twisted into comments/thoughts that really are beyond comprehension. I am completely serious when I say that forum really scares me. I've never seen such a high level of vitriol on any other BMW forum.

Thank you, Bimmerfest management/mods!!!



No one here on Bimmerfest has defended the "crash dealer". They've only looked at the situation with a dispassionate, reasonable, realistic view point.




If you wreck a car on a test drive (even if it's an ///M5) the dealer is going to be disappointed and they are going to look straight to you and your insurance company to make them whole. They are probably going to insist the repair be made at a BMW Certified Collision Repair Center, if there is one within a reasonable distance.

I haven't read anyone say the offending dealer should be allowed to repair the car. In fact, since BMW of Dallas has a BMW CCRC, I think they are an excellent choice to do the repair. A sentiment I expressed more than one on that other forum.



Michael, no fair bringing reasoning into this topic.

Wow memory isnt what it used to be, however it looks like right from the start you where biased, your word not mine for the dealer, in all the posts I quoted there where numerous hints of you implying the M5 owner was lying, or worse scamming. The DEALER LIED ABOUT EVERYTHING at first that right there is pretty damning no matter how you slice it. And in the OP it said right away the dealer offered to fix it, $2500 dollars in parts.

Oh Notice the part in the OP I bolded?
I will quote it again

They are not going to do anything other than have the car fixed. Of course they offered to fix it themselves and give me a loaner. They estimated a parts only cost without painting to be $2500. I talked to the GM (General Manager -Ed.) about depreciation, extended warranty, buying my car, selling me another car, you name it. He said if anything was damaged in the engine/drivetrain they would know it and they didn't find anything. They are not going to budge off of anything they feel like they are not required to. This is all after finally admitting they were grossly negligent and the 20 year old kid trashed my car like a rental! As soon as the owner said absolutlely no to any other option I told them not to do anything to my car, box it up and send to another dealership that another board member helped me out with (thanks again buddy). The GM then said they were going to immediately turn this over to their insurance. Get this, their deductible just happens to be $2500. They acted like this happens all the time and they already have a lot of lawsuits on them.

Seems this is the reason for the lawyer right away, and it might also explain why he has not gone to his insurance.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

If you wreck a car on a test drive (even if it's an ///M5) the dealer is going to be disappointed and they are going to look straight to you and your insurance company to make them whole. They are probably going to insist the repair be made at a BMW Certified Collision Repair Center, if there is one within a reasonable distance.

I haven't read anyone say the offending dealer should be allowed to repair the car. In fact, since BMW of Dallas has a BMW CCRC, I think they are an excellent choice to do the repair. A sentiment I expressed more than one on that other forum.

Uh, here is what you posted a few days ago...somewhere between 6 and 10 posts after you said

Originally Posted by tturedraider

And I'm finished posting in this thread, since by doing so I'm the main one on Bimmerfest giving this story any traction and that I do not want to do.

(Shall I offer the opinion that your steadfast 'defense' of this dealership has helped incite even more vitriol?

Originally Posted by tturedraider

The accident happened on a Saturday and he immediately posted on a public forum of ///M5 enthusiasts. Over the next two days the thread already had eight pages and approx. 75 angry posts before anything really happened. On Monday he refused their plan to repair the car and instructed them to ship it to another dealership. On Tuesday he had already retained a lawer and was stating how he and his lawyer were planning to "crush these guys!" He gave them virtually no time to even do anything. This does not sound to me like a level headed and reasonable response.

He has no obligation to allow them ANY "plan"!

HE IS THE ONLY ONE THAT GETS TO CHOOSE THE NEXT STEP. Once they wrecked it, no matter how, what skids, etc, etc, it is the owner that decides.

You are really twisted up by this owner aggressively asserting all their legal rights. It is rather strange.

A

PS That E60 forum is indeed tough

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I didn't say the dealer is in the right. If the car was damaged under their care, they should bear 100% of the costs to restore it to the condition it was in before the accident.

By the way, if say the OP took a sledgehammer to the car in the showroom he should be prosecuted. That's malicious.

And abusing the OP's property wasn't malicious? The moment the mechanic nailed the throttle, it was malicious. The moment he hnailed the throttle, he was no longer testing the car. It became stolen property at that point. The biggest mistake the dealer made was he didn't report the incident to the police when his mechanic returned.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Oohhh, I've been banned for a week on ///5Board. I have to say I didn't realize how great Bimmerfest is. I have an entirely new respect for our management. I've posted a goodly number of opposing views since I've been here. I've never been censored and rarely had my words' meaning twisted into comments/thoughts that really are beyond comprehension. I am completely serious when I say that forum really scares me. I've never seen such a high level of vitriol on any other BMW forum.

Thank you, Bimmerfest management/mods!!!

No one here on Bimmerfest has defended the "crash dealer". They've only looked at the situation with a dispassionate, reasonable, realistic view point.

I think you've just qualified for the hall of fame with that one.

I didn't realize 1Bimmerguy agreed with the OP. I guess I should let the M5Board know that 1Bimmerguy has had a change of heart. He's come such a long way in just a short amount of time.

I do have to ask you one question, why did you change your name to 1Bimmerguy when you joined the M5Board and then quoted tturedraider from Bimmerfest as if he was someone who agreed with you? I felt embarrassed to be a Fester when I read that post.

And the flame-fest continues. Isn't one of you guys an M5board moderator? You ban a guy there unnecessarily and yet continue to engage him here? Does it upset you to hear an opposing and reasonable view?

Originally Posted by hmr

And the flame-fest continues. Isn't one of you guys an M5board moderator? You ban a guy there unnecessarily and yet continue to engage him here? Does it upset you to hear an opposing and reasonable view?

From what I saw in the thread there, he posted personal attacks and was warned prior to banning, but warned actions continued. I assume that is why said poster was banned. Those posts have been deleted as M5board isn't going to allowed to become a kiddie playground.

Originally Posted by dunderhi

And abusing the OP's property wasn't malicious? The moment the mechanic nailed the throttle, it was malicious. The moment he hnailed the throttle, he was no longer testing the car. It became stolen property at that point. The biggest mistake the dealer made was he didn't report the incident to the police when his mechanic returned.

Malicious means wrecking the car on purpose. The mechanic was totally wrong for taking the car for a joy ride but he didn't purposely wreck the car. If someone took a sledge hammer to a car they do it on purpose. One is a felony, one is an insurance claim.

Originally Posted by hmr

And the flame-fest continues. Isn't one of you guys an M5board moderator? You ban a guy there unnecessarily and yet continue to engage him here? Does it upset you to hear an opposing and reasonable view?

Just FYI-

Ttured was banned at m5board by an Administrator not a mod.
Mods and Admins over on M5board are a very independent group, with different thoughts on what constitutes a ‘bannable offense’. I will not second guess their decisions. While I might do it for a permanent ban, a temporary ban is certainly not cause for discussion.

I will not engage an individual when I am actively moderating the topic. It can be viewed as an abuse of power and is poor form, IMO.

More that happy to engage ttured here, or there.

A

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Malicious means wrecking the car on purpose. The mechanic was totally wrong for taking the car for a joy ride but he didn't purposely wreck the car. If someone took a sledge hammer to a car they do it on purpose. One is a felony, one is an insurance claim.

So if I were swing a sledgehammer around in a showroom and accidentally hit a car it would be an accident. Like the mechanic, I would be irresponsible, but not malicious. Good to know.

Originally Posted by dunderhi

So if I were swing a sledgehammer around in a showroom and accidentally hit a car it would be an accident. Like the mechanic, I would be irresponsible, but not malicious. Good to know.

Come on now, your point is ridiculous.

The tech was (allegedly) test driving the car for a valid reason. While we do not know with certainty how fast he was driving or if he did anything that would have caused the accident, he did have a valid reason to be test driving the car at the time of the accident.

If you walk into the showroom with a sledge hammer, it is clearly for malicious reasons. Why on earth would anyone walk into a showroom carrying a sledge hammer? Do you think it is remotely close to a technician doing his job by test driving the car?

Originally Posted by hmr

And the flame-fest continues. Isn't one of you guys an M5board moderator? You ban a guy there unnecessarily and yet continue to engage him here? Does it upset you to hear an opposing and reasonable view?

I use the same username across all of the boards automobile that I participate. So, having only one post over at the M5Board doesn't qualify me as a mod, but I agree with the admin's decision. 1Bimmerguy was creating so much negative publicity for himself and the dealer that the thread was turning ugly. Luckily his posts have been deleted, and folks are starting to calm back down.

Originally Posted by SARAFIL

Come on now, your point is ridiculous.

The tech was (allegedly) test driving the car for a valid reason. While we do not know with certainty how fast he was driving or if he did anything that would have caused the accident, he did have a valid reason to be test driving the car at the time of the accident.

If you walk into the showroom with a sledge hammer, it is clearly for malicious reasons. Why on earth would anyone walk into a showroom carrying a sledge hammer? Do you think it is remotely close to a technician doing his job by test driving the car?

Drywalling? Masonry? Thor God of Thunder?

My point was the mechanic was no longer doing his job when he nailed the throttle. A bankteller is no longer doing his job when he steals from the bank, right?

I think I said "What if you wreck a dealers car during a test drive?" And along with that scenario I posited the thought that the dealer should allow ME to fix the car- and if the dealer refused then I could say they were being unreasonable.

It was an analogy to this situation in which the dealer (or I should say the dealer's cheerleader) felt the dealer had a right to retain and fix the owners car. And to the argument that the M5 owner was 'unreasonable' when he pulled his car out.

Sarafil- the driver/employee was fired. I realize it is a BIG stretch, but can we agree he wasn't on an authorized test drive? He was a lot monkey as I gather, NOT a person that did nor was qualified to do test drives. I think even ttured has given up on "he was doing a tst drive that was part of the normal service' theory

Finally the dealer has certain legal 'duties' when accepting a car for service. One is to exercise reasonable care. While the dealer didn't wreck the car, the dealer perhaps had poor policies and controls in place to control access to keys, and perhaps has a pattern of this kind of thing. At the end of the end of the day, this can grind out and turn into a legal colonoscopy for the dealership... perhaps he enjoys this kind of thing, or his insurer is saying we'll handle it...or business is such that he isn't paying much attention.... who knows? Generally most owners realize that the loss versus the legal cost analysis makes most actions 'non-economical'.... It is the notable one out of a thousand case, like the doctor with the repainted BMW as a new car that said "take this all the way no matter what the cost" that sets that landmark case...but the other 999 customers just get screwed

A

Originally Posted by ard

I think I said "What if you wreck a dealers car during a test drive?" And along with that scenario I posited the thought that the dealer should allow ME to fix the car- and if the dealer refused then I could say they were being unreasonable.

It was an analogy to this situation in which the dealer (or I should say the dealer's cheerleader) felt the dealer had a right to retain and fix the owners car. And to the argument that the M5 owner was 'unreasonable' when he pulled his car out.

Sarafil- the driver/employee was fired. I realize it is a BIG stretch, but can we agree he wasn't on an authorized test drive? He was a lot monkey as I gather, NOT a person that did nor was qualified to do test drives. I think even ttured has given up on "he was doing a tst drive that was part of the normal service' theory

Finally the dealer has certain legal 'duties' when accepting a car for service. One is to exercise reasonable care. While the dealer didn't wreck the car, the dealer perhaps had poor policies and controls in place to control access to keys, and perhaps has a pattern of this kind of thing. At the end of the end of the day, this can grind out and turn into a legal colonoscopy for the dealership... perhaps he enjoys this kind of thing, or his insurer is saying we'll handle it...or business is such that he isn't paying much attention.... who knows? Generally most owners realize that the loss versus the legal cost analysis makes most actions 'non-economical'.... It is the notable one out of a thousand case, like the doctor with the repainted BMW as a new car that said "take this all the way no matter what the cost" that sets that landmark case...but the other 999 customers just get screwed

A

Agreed, why hasn't the guy gone through his own insurance for this? He can still go for depreciation as well.

Originally Posted by 330ximd

Agreed, why hasn't the guy gone through his own insurance for this? He can still go for depreciation as well.

"depreciation" HELPS the insurance company...the car depreciates and is worth less, the OP gets less....

I think you mean "diminished value"... the OP **CANNOT** get DV from his own insurer. Here is the big disconnect that most people have about 'insurance':

1. When a stranger damages your property, they are LIABLE for your damages. (Lets assume they are guilty and all that, for the purposes of this discussion.) This LIABILITY is for all you losses: damage to the car, physical damage, psychological damages, diminished value, etc.

2. If YOU damage your own car, then there is no 'liability'. You've just suffered a loss. You may have a CONTRACT with an insurance company which says "If you crash and suffer a loss we will pay for that loss". This contract will define what a LOSS is- this contract usually (always?) excludes any DV claim. Hence the OP is excluded from a DV claim if he uses his insurer.

3. If a stranger has insurance, that insurance covers the strangers liability- IT IS NOT THAT POLICY (between the stranger and the stranger's insurance company) THAT DEFINES WHAT YOU CAN CLAIM AS YOUR LOSS. (They will say 'oh we don't cover that', but that is just a tactic to avoid a claim.) If you've established a loss that includes DV, then that stranger is financially responsible for the DV. That stranger turns to THEIR insurance and says "I was liable, my contract with you says you will pay my liability..pay the claim". Even if the claim includes DV, even if the insurance contract says 'we won't DV if YOU crash the car', the policy must say 'we will pay if you are liable'.

As a side note, it would be even sweeter if the dealers insurance excluded DV under their liability policy. That would mean the prick dealer would pay the DV out of his pocket!

4. When you go to your insurance and ask them to pay you for your loss, even if someone else was at fault, your insurance typically uses the definition of "loss" in your contract, then waives the deductible and then subbrogates the claim. These bastards - your insurance and the other insurance- will act in concert to make sure nobody pays DV claims unless state law requires it. Your insurer will say "we don't recognize DV, we will not pay it, we will not help you- you need to sue the other party".


The point is that transactionally, insurers act as the court and settling party, and payor, and people tend to lose sight of the underlying responsible party and who is really on the hook for what...

Hmmm, might as well jump back in, since the endless posturing and argument is, well, endless, it seems.



Question:
Is it in doubt that under the Dealership's care, the customer's car was damaged?

That's the only relevant question, as far as I can tell. The whole "let's hear the whole story" stuff...well, would be interesting no doubt, but the question above is what determines the legal and financial and insurance points, no?

Originally Posted by galahad05

Hmmm, might as well jump back in, since the endless posturing and argument is, well, endless, it seems.



Question:
Is it in doubt that under the Dealership's care, the customer's car was damaged?

That's the only relevant question, as far as I can tell. The whole "let's hear the whole story" stuff...well, would be interesting no doubt, but the question above is what determines the legal and financial and insurance points, no?

Not on the Internets. And especially not when you have a willing audience.