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Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > E39 (1997 - 2003)

E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #251  
Old 09-17-2010, 11:00 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
reliance on the diode/resistance tests advocated in this thread would probably have indicated his wheel sensor was not the problem and may have led to unnecessary repair/replacement of his DSC module.
This is very interesting information.

From the start, we have striven to outline a DIAGNOSTIC test for the shadetree mechanic.

The "diode test" seemed like the best we had.

Perhaps we should dig deeper into "INPA, DIS, SSS/Progman and NCS Expert", all of which I know nothing about so I will defer to others.

The goal will be to supply a DIY that diagnoses the Brake/ABS/DSC trifecta better than what we have so far (i.e., better than the diode test if we can).
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  #252  
Old 09-18-2010, 07:17 AM
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540iman 540iman is offline
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Welcome! 1st post or 1000th, we are all here to share opinions and experiences. I agree with a lot of what you stated and disagree with a little of what you stated. First, I don't believe anyone (mainly me, I guess) took issue with the way Agent15 went about his diagnostics. I think that a lot of the problem is that Carsoft and others don't, as you say tell you that the patient has a low white blood cell count and stop there. They often "attempt" to go farther and diagnose the patient as having cancer. The last ABS system I repaired was interesting because all I have in the way of BMW-specific diagnostic equipment is Carsoft. The buddy I was working with had INPA, progman, and all the other stuff you mentioned. Both our diagnostics lead to a faulty yaw sensor and NEITHER were correct. Carsoft also said a wheel speed sensor was bad which also was wrong. I determined it was wrong with a diode test. I don't agree with your statement that the diode or resistance test is not conclusive. If you test at the module connector, it is less conclusive then if you remove the suspect wheel sensor-have it and it alone in your hand and then test it with a VOM. You need to make sure that the sensor does not have metal shavings stuck to the end of the sensor and that the wiring to the sensor (between the module and each sensor) is not also what is giving you an open or short.

I think what was being conveyed to Agent15 is to not be surprised if the diagnosis, as given by some equipment, will be wrong and may lead to replacement of parts and the problem will still be there. You must, as you say, get more tests that will further define the problem. Initially, I think I was of the opinion that 90% of the time, problems with the trifecta lights will ultimately be a bad module and 10% a bad sensor. I now think it is more like 70-30. I have found more bad sensors lately, but have NEVER found one that tested bad and was really good or vice verse. I would bet a paycheck that if Agent15 or anyone for that matter has the sensor in his hand and can get meter leads deep into the sensor such that he can test either in ohms or voltage bias forward and reverse (diode test) and the sensor tests bad, that it IS bad. Conversely, if it tests "ok" meaning there is a definite difference when meter leads are reversed and sensor does not test open or shorted BOTH ways- it is NOT the fault.

The main point is that any diagnostic equipment that does not test by going between the sensors and the module simply can not definitively see a bad module from a bad sensor. It is as simple as stating that a blood pressure cuff can not diagnose whether high blood pressure reading at a cuff is because of a faulty heart or a clotted artery. You must somehow get readings I suspect (certainly not a Dr.!) between the heart valves or whatever you do to isolate. If your Indy or dealer hooks up to your OBDII port or your 20 pin and definitively tells you that you have a bad wheel speed sensor, that person is full of doo-doo. Only thing you can diagnose correctly 100% of the time from either of these two points is a bad module due to a communication error or similar. They can not tell a bad input (sensor) from a bad module at these test points.
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  #253  
Old 09-21-2010, 04:44 PM
Car1951 Car1951 is offline
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Dear Bluebee,

My BMW X5 (2001) turned on three amber light two weeks ago, thanks to your thread I can understand and make a protocol to follow the source of my X5 problem. Just I would like to share with you what my BMW X5 2001 pins sensor changes a little from your publication:


Rear Left 13/29 pins
Rear Right 14/31 pins your tread 30/31
Front Left 28/12 pins
Front Right 15/16

My problem (The best of my knowledge) come from Pressure Sensor, I purchased it but before to replace it I would like to ask you if I need to bleed the rear brake (my digram says that Pressure sensor is connected on the rear brake line of the Hydro unit). In other words; when I will replace the pressure sensor must I bleed the rear brake? Second, are there a tool that we can use at the moment that we need to replace the Pressure Sensor without disconnect the pipe line connected to the Hydro Unit?

I do really appreciate your help, again thank for your valuable threads.

Car1951
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  #254  
Old 09-21-2010, 04:50 PM
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540iman 540iman is offline
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Bee, you wanna tell him or you want me to? Faulty pressure sensor indication can be another one of those input sensor errors that end up really being the module. You need to back-probe pressure sensor to see what your output is with no pedal pressure and then with pedal pushed hard. It might be your sensor, but just like any other input to the module, unless you physically test that sensor don't be surprised if your error remains. Bad pressure sensors are very uncommon.
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  #255  
Old 09-21-2010, 05:37 PM
Car1951 Car1951 is offline
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540iman, thank for your observation.

I do really appreciate it. My conclusion is based because without pedal pressure exit volts (Pressure Sensor) is above 4.47 volts? If I can replace the sensor which must maintain 0 Volts with none pressure on the brake pedal, and lineal volts exit depending of the driver pressure? After that you are right should be DSC Electronic modulus.

Car1951
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  #256  
Old 09-21-2010, 06:16 PM
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540iman 540iman is offline
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good job man!!! you did not say how you tested or arrived at conclusion and many just go by carsoft error or some such crap (and I have Carsoft). You back-probed and did your homework. Good deal. Not sure if it should be zero with no pedal, but you are dead nuts on...it should raise with full pressure toward 5VDC. May be 0-4.5VDC or .5V-5.0 point is that it varies proportionately like you said as pedal pressure changes. G/L
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  #257  
Old 09-21-2010, 06:37 PM
Car1951 Car1951 is offline
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540iman thanks;

I have arrived above conclusion after have made all test that you and bluebee have suggested. I will need to replace the pressure sensor but there are a little room to do this job because line pipes and location for BMW X5 2001, I don't want to un-install a line pipe I believe that I will need to bleed the system. If I do so.

Brake Pressure Sensor

A brake pressure sensor is installed in the hydraulic unit to determine the degree of pressure build-up for Dynamic Brake Control. It is installed in the front axle brake circuit. The sensor receives its power supply from the DSC control module and produces a linear voltage input signal ranging from 0.5 to 4.5 volts depending on how hard the brakes are applied.

Brake Light Switch (BLS)

The brake switch is an input to the DSC Module to inform it that the brakes are
being applied. If the signal is received during an ASC regulation then brake regulation is interrupted.

I will inform you regarding pressure sensor change.

Car1951
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  #258  
Old 09-22-2010, 07:16 PM
jeffstri jeffstri is offline
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Car1951, how did you arrive at the conclusion that your pressure sensor might be bad? Did you retrieve any fault codes? If so, what software did you use and what were the codes? Or did you just start doing the tests described in this thread?

If you did get a fault code suggesting a pressure sensor problem and your X5 has DSC 5.7, I suggest you perform the pressure sensor test via the precharge pump described in the WDS:



You will need INPA or GT1/DIS to perform these tests, but you can get the software free and interface and cables for less than $50. (See my post #250 above.) That's a lot cheaper than throwing money at parts based on the voltage test described in this thread, which has never been verified.

I'm struggling with a similar problem right now. I originally got Carsoft code 86 (outlet valve front right) but now I'm getting 115 (ABS/ASC control unit internal error). (I don't find Carsoft errors to be reliable - I'm only reporting them for completeness.)

INPA consistently shows:



and DIS shows:





The brake pressure (measured with DIS) with the pedal not depressed is 0 bar, so DIS says the possible problems are a lose contact or high frequency interference:



I haven't found any loose contact and I have no idea what might be a source of high frequency interference. So I'm going through the WDS "Pressure sensor test via the precharge pump" shown above, but I'm a bit confused by the two statements "Fault currently not present" - I suspect that the second should read Fault currently present. The fault is present after a precharge pump test and the pressure with the engine running and maximum force on the brake pedal is above 80 bar (about 85-100 bar). I can activate the precharge pump with INPA - I can hear it run - but I guess it's output is too low. The only thing I haven't done yet is "ventilate DSC hydraulics," i.e., bleed the brakes with DIS, but it's looking like I'll need a new precharge pump.

In answer to your question about bleeding the brakes, you will need to but it must be done with activation of the DSC module using DIS:


Last edited by jeffstri; 09-22-2010 at 08:12 PM.
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  #259  
Old 09-22-2010, 09:18 PM
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champaign777 champaign777 is offline
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how your GT1 runs if all 3 lights are off ?
minimum one should be there for sure no ?
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  #260  
Old 09-23-2010, 03:15 AM
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540iman 540iman is offline
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Your issue sounds like a "classic" example of the module being intermittent and bad. Errors come and go usually with heat. Carsoft as you say just sends you n a direction. If your module is the original, then one of the best $550 or thereabouts expenses is to EAC and a fresh module or at minimum a re-build.
I would not be surprised if both of you guys end up with a new module being the fix G/L. I'm un-subbing from this thread as I think whatever I can lend...I have. BB is now the torch bearer and is as brite a learner and information "magnet" as I have ever run into.

G/L guys & Gals!

Bill
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  #261  
Old 09-23-2010, 04:59 AM
jeffstri jeffstri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champaign777 View Post
how your GT1 runs if all 3 lights are off ?
minimum one should be there for sure no ?
I have no idea what you're asking.
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  #262  
Old 09-23-2010, 05:39 AM
jeffstri jeffstri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 540iman View Post
Your issue sounds like a "classic" example of the module being intermittent and bad. Errors come and go usually with heat. Carsoft as you say just sends you n a direction. If your module is the original, then one of the best $550 or thereabouts expenses is to EAC and a fresh module or at minimum a re-build.
I would not be surprised if both of you guys end up with a new module being the fix G/L. I'm un-subbing from this thread as I think whatever I can lend...I have. BB is now the torch bearer and is as brite a learner and information "magnet" as I have ever run into.

G/L guys & Gals!

Bill
Bill,

There's nothing intermittent about my problem. The Carsoft codes have been inconsistent. This is not unexpected - Carsoft gives me the wrong codes for other modules too and I never rely on Carsoft for anything. In fact, I hardly ever use Carsoft. I only mention the Carsoft codes here because it's the only diagnostic software people on this thread seem to use.

The codes I've see with INPA and DIS have always been the same. The brake light trifecta goes on whenever the precharge pump is activated (v > 30km/hr, engine rpm > 2000 rpm, and engine torque > 100Nm), before the engine heats up, and the same INPA and DIS codes come back.

I haven't entirely ruled out the DSC module, but right now nothing points to it. I can activate all the DSC module components (solenoids and return pump) with INPA. So far, everything points to precharge pump failure as described here. If you have some special insight (other than your apparent view that all diagnostic codes are useless and everything can be solved with unverified DIMM tests) I'd love to hear it.

Finally, if it is the DSC module, I'll get it here for $460 (EAC is overpriced for just about everything).

Sorry to hear you're unsubscribing from this thread - if you stick around you may learn something new. And please try INPA, DIS and SSS/Progman rather than "dis" all diagnostics.

Last edited by jeffstri; 09-23-2010 at 09:03 AM.
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  #263  
Old 09-23-2010, 07:55 PM
dmbmw530 dmbmw530 is offline
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I too started having a similar issue with the ABS, BRAKE, DSC and service engine light on my '01 530i.

I did some analysis at the module side and like the very few (2) people on this thread saw that the diode test both forward and reverse biased showed OL across all the 4 sensors.

From your advice, I understand that it is impossible to have all 4 sensors go bad at the same time so I decided to check the driver side rear sensor itself as I had issues with my speedometer. The result came back to be the same as at the module. The diode test showed OL at both pins regardless which one was +. I was checking at the pins inside the blue connector. Is that the right place, as I did not find any other points on the sensor? I switched to resistance and was able to get about 30 Mohms in one direction and OL in the other. Does this make seance? I tried two DMMs and kept getting the same result.

If anyone has come across a similar issue and has some advise, it would be appreciated.

Full observation of the issues I'm facing:
1. Not all 3 lights are on most of the time. I usually just get ABS+DSC.
2. Whenever all 3 lights are on the speedometer, trip meter, fuel gauge & remaining mileage work
3. Whenever only 2 lights are on, speedometer, trip meter, fuel gauge & remaining mileage do nor work.
4. The lights go on either immediately when the car is turned on, or within the first couple of minutes driving it, so it does not seem to be heat related.
5. My peak is showing:
* Timeout, CAN - ASC1
* Idle control system, idle speed not plausible
* Vehicle speed signal not present
6. After resting the codes, "Timeout, CAN - ASC1" comes back immediately (understood as these codes are not really codes and can not be reset)
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  #264  
Old 09-29-2010, 04:28 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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As a cross reference, apparently, according to this thread of 4 months ago, the 1997 E39 ABS control module is NOT in the engine compartment; it's apparently just under the glovebox.

The harness connector ot the hydraulic pump IS, apparently, in the engine compartment (go figure).

Here are pictures supplied by the OP.





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  #265  
Old 09-29-2010, 10:32 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Regarding the question
- Need ABS Module Pin Out for 1997 528i

For the record, there is a 1997 wiring diagram for the ABS in this 6MB 318i wiring manual on the web (get it while you can).

Page 110 of 275 has the electrical wiring diagram for the ABS control module showing where the sensors are connected.

There is also an 1997 M3 wiring diagram of the ABS pinout here:
- http://www.vancewillis.net/bmw/abs_teves4eng.pdf
- http://www.vancewillis.net/bmw/bentl...abs_wiring.jpg



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File Type: pdf 262_bimmerfest_1997BMW318tiElectricalTroubleshootingManual.pdf (146.0 KB, 482 views)

Last edited by bluebee; 09-30-2010 at 06:57 AM.
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  #266  
Old 09-30-2010, 07:16 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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I posted the 1997 318i ABS wiring pinout, in the hopes that it might be similar for the 1997 E39. Here are related JPEG conversions from the 1997 wiring book.

If not, at least it may help 318i owners.

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  #267  
Old 10-14-2010, 06:33 PM
TheStig TheStig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
1. If your Bimmer has abs, brake, and DSC lights lit ...
2. Run the 5-minute sensor-resistance test ...
3. And if all 4 are good, then send your ABS module out for rebuild
!
Yeah for cliff notes!!

My Check Engine Light, ABS, Brake and DSC lights came on and the speedometer stopped working.

I tested the wheel speed sensors and they were fine.

Won an auction on Ebay for BBA to rebuild the module for $130.00. I'll mail the module tomorrow and hopefully they will fix it..

I'll let you know if it works out.

Last edited by TheStig; 10-22-2010 at 11:34 AM.
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  #268  
Old 10-14-2010, 06:46 PM
Jared@EAC Jared@EAC is offline
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Best of luck to you!
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  #269  
Old 10-15-2010, 12:11 PM
EthirtyMine EthirtyMine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 540iman View Post
... I fabricated a heat shield for my new module. Later BMWs relocated away from exhaust manifolds.
I was thinking of this very thing. What's to keep the same problem from happening down the road if the root of it (heat) isn't corrected?

Do you have any pics or a write-up? I did a search for "shield" in this thread and yours was the only post that came up.
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  #270  
Old 10-17-2010, 09:05 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EthirtyMine View Post
I did a search for "shield" in this thread and yours was the only post that came up.
- BMW E39 ABS control module DIY heat shield (1) (2)



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  #271  
Old 10-19-2010, 08:54 AM
530i-bie 530i-bie is offline
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Hello again,
I posted the following info/question back in May of this year (page 8 or 9 of this thread) but did not get a single response to my issue.
I am in hopes that 'Bluebee' will chime in and help me, and any others with their vast amount of knowledge with this system. I too, am an electronics tech, and fully understand everything that has been offered and discribed on this thread, however, I have a very special problem that seems to mystify event he most experienced stealer techs, and indy's...

I have toubleshot this system in depth using all my experience with meters and electronics, etc.etc. and still can not come close to defining my problem, without doing the most expensive of experiments... ie: DSC precharge pump ($$$ ouch) or replace DSC Module (even more $$$ ouch) and still NO plausible confidence that either will fix it, due to my only having one of the three 'trifecta' lights on...

My original post was:
"I have the DSC warning/yellow triangle light ONLY...
My indy is telling me that the DSC Compressor/Precharge pump is defective...$1552.00 plus labor to replace !!!
Does anyone have any knowledge as to ability to prove that it is the pump ??
I dont see many posts where anyone has had to replace this 'very' expensive part... mostly a sensor or send
Computer off for overhaul.
So, does anyone know anything more about the Precharge pump on the 2003 E39 DSC system.
It is different than the 1997 thru 2002 ASC system. "

New information since May...

I since have taken it to my stealer, they had it on the rack for three hours, with DIS hooked up, and 'wires' hanging down from under the car and hooking their meter to the loose wires, and several other techs walking over, looking, discussing, (scratching their heads) etc.etc.
Outcome, the service manager came to me and said he was 'pretty sure' the DSC compressor/precharge pump was OK, and thought it was the dreaded DSC module that needed to be replaced, and he could do it right then for $1850.00. I thought "%$@@!!!" at that point, due to their obvious state of inconfidence that was being displayed over it all.

Since I am not any more confident of the situation at this point, I simply paid the labor charge for the DIS, thanked them, and left.

I dont mind putting on a new Module, or sending mine off for repair, but I am simply afraid that it will come back and 'might' still be the PreCharge pump, or something else.
Like everyone else in this thread, I dont want to 'waste' money, or simply run around guessing, and spending more money changing out 'good' parts.

Does anyone here have ANY insight as to how to RULE OUT the DSC Compressor/Precharge Pump ??
I have seen no other folks on this forum having the same problem I am having with 'only' the DSC light on, and can not make it go off.

Thanks in advance,
rick
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  #272  
Old 10-19-2010, 04:55 PM
jeffstri jeffstri is offline
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rick,

Here's how you test the precharge pump:



However, you've left out a lot of information that is needed to help you.

What troubleshooting have you done?

What tests did your indy do that led to his conclusion that the precharge pump is the problem?

What tests did the dealer do and what were the results? You paid for it so you should get a print out from him.

Has a defective DSC switch been ruled out?

Check realoem.com to see if the 2003 precharge pump is the same as 1997-2002.

Last edited by jeffstri; 10-19-2010 at 04:56 PM.
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  #273  
Old 10-19-2010, 06:22 PM
530i-bie 530i-bie is offline
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Well,
I have tested all the wheel sensors... all good.
I have cleaned/reseated all connections in the DSC harness to the Module.
The Indy simply kept it in his 'eat off the floor' shop for two hours, (constantly bragging about his $30,000 dollar computer DIS system that he had, however I never saw anything but a handheld unit attached to the car...) said the Precharge Pump needed replaced, gave me the cost to do that, and then also told me of another $3700 worth of work that needed to be done. (two thirds of what he said, I agreed with and already done the work myself for less than $700 in parts).
He mentioned the brake switch needed replacing, but interestingly enough, was not in the quotes...

I also went thru the steering wheel sensor calibration... I guess it was successful. I have not yet bought a Carsoft, or other, diagnostic tool yet...

The Indy simply just led me to feel like he just wanted to get $3700 more dollars out of me, and the real reason I came to him was the least of the issues, and then again, the first mention (right after he hooked up the tool to the OBDII) of the switch needing replacing, and then did not even quote it in the end... I did not feel confident about it all.

The Stealer (BMW of Asheville) really spent time on it, both manually, and consulting with several techs while on the rack... they never mentioned it being 'anything' simple, like a switch or sensor of any kind... they simply wanted to put a new Repair Kit Module on the system...
Like I said, I dont mind doing that (buy it myself, install it, and go have it coded) but dont want to learn after that, that the Compressor really is bad.
But, then again, are they going to actually replace a simple/cheap part that really ends up fixing the system, and simply putting a module on the car just to get the shop charge as high as possible. (they have a reputation for charging out the butt for everything)

AND NO, they refused to give me a copy of the DIS print outs. I fussed loud with them, but their answer was that it would remain in my file for when I bring it back for repair...it was not their policy to give out the printouts even though I paid them $125 to hook it up and tell me what was wrong. I really thought they would verify that it was the Precharge pump and I would then have a second opinion, and go forward in having it replaced.
However, they said it was the Module !!

I have no confidence in what to really do. Send the module to BBS (or other) and have them verify and/or fix it ?? and then still have the DSC light on after everthing is reinstalled and reset ?? Or have the dealer replace the Precharge Pump ??
I would have them do that due to the elaborate break system air bleed they do...
Dont think I want to tackle that by myself, unless you guys can offer a step by step on how a DIY'er can do it.
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  #274  
Old 10-19-2010, 06:24 PM
530i-bie 530i-bie is offline
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Also,
COULD it be as simple as the DSC switch on the console ??
AND why of all why's can the guys that charge $90 - $140 per hour not find that ??
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  #275  
Old 10-19-2010, 06:46 PM
530i-bie 530i-bie is offline
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Location: Asheville, NC
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 15
Mein Auto: 530i
Jeffstri,

I have been studying your diagnostic chart, and see where it says that there is a pressure check of the precharge pump after conditions have been met...
I looked at my DSC diagram (hydraulic and electrical) and do not see a pressure sensor before the ABS module...
Where is this Precharge pressure sensor ?? The only one I see is the one on the back of the ABS solenoid module.

I also cant seem to find in my service manual (bmw cd set) how to properly check and/or set/adjust the brake switch. Can you supply some insight on that as well ??

It would MAKE MY DAY if it was the brake switch or the DSC switch.

Other facts:
the system has not been apart/serviced, so I do not believe there is air in the system.
the brake fluid level is nominal.
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