Checked off VANOS today : )

Yes, remove the bolts and the Vanos pistons come out. At the end of each piston is an rubber O-ring underneath a Teflon ring. See the Beisansystems website for internal pictures.

Originally Posted by bluebee

This "VANOS" seals thing has always confused me.

Where in the beautiful picture below is the actual VANOS seal anyway?

You arrows point to a pressed in part / casting in the VANOS cylinder cover, you can see just the threaded hole in the center of the piston now resting nicely inside the cylinder if you look inside the center hole in the pic. Once you remove the four and five bols, you expose the cylinder and inner pistons. You slide out the piston and you will see two "rings", each ring has a black teflon outer o-ring and a softer inner o-ring to keep the teflon one spring loaded against the inside of the cylinder. The Besian site has a great detailed step by step thread with pics of all... When I started with Fudman I was ready to remove the valve cover and Fudman pulled out the fan removal instructions and said we do this first... stinks as that was the PITA in the project, the valve cover and VANOS seals were really methodical vs. hard. You do want to take your time on removing the old teflon and rubber o-ring and be careful not to scratch the o-ring groove or cylinder wall. We put a very small scratch on the piston (hard to not put one on when you use a pick and a knife to get the old o-rings out) but a little scotch brite pad and they were like glass again. We also did not try to deoil the VANOS as you can see in the pic as IMO this just adds contaminants to the system when in my case the VANOS was clean (albeit bathed in oil) to begin with and had just had a RedLine oil change.

Originally Posted by bluebee

This "VANOS" seals thing has always confused me.

Where in the beautiful picture below is the actual VANOS seal anyway?

This is what was cut off the bottom of the original pic to get it less then 1MB, the top o-ring should be rubbery, instead is too is hard dark plastic (cut to remove), it sits behind the matching small teflon outer ring (right below it in the middle) in the piston groove. The outer teflon ring should be pliable but stiff, mine was hard and brittle although as you can see in the right outer teflon larger ring, they are still in good form / shape (likely why I did not really have symptoms - but did have a performance hit but did not know any better), on the left you can see a part of the larger o-ring (sits in the groove under the large outer ring), also now hard vs. rubber like with the new ones.

Bluebee--don't even hand me this--as many times as this has been gone over and all the times I sent you the link to Besian's --you haven't read the how too? Really?

Originally Posted by Hooray!

You slide out the piston and you will see two "rings"

Thanks both you and Fudman. Now at least I understand what your pictures were showing us. It's interesting, but, before I did the radiator removal, I didn't know what a fan clutch nut looked like. Now I'd recognize it a mile away and can find errors on the EAC Tuning web site. Likewise, before I did the drive belt system, I didn't understand what an idler roller did differently than a mechanical tensioner versus a hydraulic tensioner and pulley. Again, after having done it, I can spot the parts a mile away.

This VANOS thing has always dogged me. I've heard about it from the start. But, had/have no clue really what to look for in each picture. Thanks for taking the time to help me identify the salient points in the pics.

The Besian site has a great detailed step by step thread with pics of all...

When I followed the Besian radiator-removal steps, I found lots of steps missing.

VANOS seals were really methodical vs. hard.

You give me confidence to attack the VANOS some day! I can (only) do a brake job, a cooling system overhaul, and a belt-drive overhaul. Are you saying the VANOS is easier than those three things?

If so, I can probably do it (when I get the courage).

Originally Posted by Hooray!

This is what was cut off the bottom of the original pic to get it less then 1MB

You should NEVER have to do that. Just bring up Irfanview on Windows (or The Gimp in Linux), and "resize" the picture ('scale' on Linux) to 640x480. That alone generally gets the picture down in file size to an uploadable level. Then, if you want, simply SAVE the picture in Irfanview and when you save it, a dialog box will ask you "What size do you want it to be" (in effect). And you say 100KB (or whatever) and voila! The picture shows up on a 640x480 resolution screen as not too large; and the file size is 100KB on disk. Pretty simple. See the thread we started for that (which was moved to another section by the mods.)

on the left you can see a part of the larger o-ring (sits in the groove under the large outer ring), also now hard vs. rubber like with the new ones.

Your description of the seals themselves is definitely edifying! Thanks!
I almost want to tackle my VANOS now.

Can you PLEASE DOUBLECHECK the parts list we listed for VANOS?

Half the battle is figuring out which parts (and tools) to buy ahead of time!

Here is the link!

Since I really would want a good vetting of the VANOS tools/parts list, I'll copy it here to make it easier for you to identify which parts you bought and which are missing from this list and which are recommended but optional.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED PARTS:
- 1 valve cover gasket
- 1 Double vanos seals repair kit (6-cyl) (BS001) $60/each (beisansystems)
- 1 vanos gasket (11-36-1-433-817) 6.73/each,
- 2 vanos oil hose/pipe washer (32-41-1-093-596) $.25/each
- ? anything else ?

RECOMMENDED PARTS:
- 1 valve cover gasket set (>=09/02 11-12-0-030-496) $34.26/each,
- 15 valve cover bolt grommet (11-12-1-437-395) $1.73/each,
- 1 oil fill neck gasket (11-12-7-526-447) 2.29/each
- ? anything else ?

EASILY BROKEN & GOOD TO HAVE AROUND:
- 2 x vanos piston bolt (11-36-1-748-745) $1.42/each,
- 4 x engine cover bolt/nut cap (11-12-1-726-089) 3.27/each,
- 2x fan shroud rivet (17-11-1-712-963) $.27/each,
- radiator overflow neck (17-11-0-419-132) $1.67/each
- ? anything else ?

EASILY LOST WHEN DOING VANOS:
- 4x engine cover pad (11-12-1-730-352) $1.98/each
- You also need high-temp RTV sealant for the corners of the valve cover.
- ? anything else ?

TOOLS RECOMMENDED TO DO THE VANOS SEALS:
- 32mm long-handled thin fan clutch nut tool (see details here)
- Fan hub bolt counterhold tool, 45mm (I6) or 38mm (V8) hole spacing
- ? anything else ?

wow, once again a very useful thread. Thanks everyone.

Originally Posted by bluebee

You give me confidence to attack the VANOS some day! I can (only) do a brake job, a cooling system overhaul, and a belt-drive overhaul. Are you saying the VANOS is easier than those three things?

Easier: Not really. Harder: No! Can you do it: Absolutely Yes! If you can do your cooling system, you can do your Vanos. The hardest part is removing the fan shround and the hardest part of that process is removing the fan blade. You've already tackled that. The rest is just methodical unbolting and rebolting. The Beisan DIY instructions is simply the best documented DIY (sorry, cn90), hands down. Great pics and a full listing of tools needed (you now have the specialty tools). Read it a few times and you'll see that it doesn't take any particular skill to do any of it. And all components are fully accessible. And the best part, Rajaie (Beisan founder & owner) is standing by 24/7 (OK, maybe 18/7) to answer any questions you have. The return on investment of the Vanos seal replacement is on par with the suspension overhaul: About the same time and effort, maybe not as noticeable in all cases but a whole lot cheaper. And it is a hoot to look inside your engine. Truly a marvel of engineering.

Originally Posted by bluebee

Since I really would want a good vetting of the VANOS tools/parts list, I'll copy it here to make it easier for you to identify which parts you bought and which are missing from this list and which are recommended but optional.

Legend:
B: Bought
U: Used
S: Suggest you purchase

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED PARTS:
BUS - 1 valve cover gasket
BUS - 1 Double vanos seals repair kit (6-cyl) (BS001) $60/each (beisansystems)
BUS - 1 vanos gasket (11-36-1-433-817) 6.73/each,
BUS - 2 vanos oil hose/pipe washer (32-41-1-093-596) $.25/each
See Below, I used the Besian list as the purchase guide and bought everything! - ? anything else ?

RECOMMENDED PARTS:
BUS - 1 valve cover gasket set (>=09/02 11-12-0-030-496) $34.26/each,
BUS - 15 valve cover bolt grommet (11-12-1-437-395) $1.73/each,
BS (would stink if this broke and it was cheap, I'll sell you all my new parts not used if you are interested)- 1 oil fill neck gasket (11-12-7-526-447) 2.29/each
See Below... - ? anything else ?

EASILY BROKEN & GOOD TO HAVE AROUND:
BS (Did not break one, put the old ones back in before I realized I bought these... if you broke one on removal, need them) - 2 x vanos piston bolt (11-36-1-748-745) $1.42/each,
BUS (although the caps I took off were in decent shape) - 4 x engine cover bolt/nut cap (11-12-1-726-089) 3.27/each,
BS (could have used them, but did not see them under a paper towel, these "rivets" are one time use items, buy them) - 2x fan shroud rivet (17-11-1-712-963) $.27/each,
BS (if you broke this, would need it, I have a new one I'll sell you)- radiator overflow neck (17-11-0-419-132) $1.67/each
- ? anything else ?

EASILY LOST WHEN DOING VANOS:
BUS (not sure what these are, I'll check my invoice but, I think they may be just the plastic cover vs. the nut)- 4x engine cover pad (11-12-1-730-352) $1.98/each
BUS (purchased hi-temp copper RTV at NAPA)- You also need high-temp RTV sealant for the corners of the valve cover.
- ? anything else ?

TOOLS RECOMMENDED TO DO THE VANOS SEALS:
Fudman Supplied (you have this right?)- 32mm long-handled thin fan clutch nut tool (see details here)
Attached to Fan/Hub, dont think you need this- Fan hub bolt
You have this, Fudman Supplied, we broke, made on the fly, counterhold tool, 45mm (I6) or 38mm (V8) hole spacing
- ? anything else ?[/QUOTE]

I would say, if you are methodical, which you appear to be by your post detail you can do this if you already have removed your fan / fan shroud. The other parts, removing the valve cover and removing the VANOS is really all about following the Besian directions which were literal step by step (very good). Removing the old teflon ring required:

- a razor knife, an exacto thin blade knife would be pefect
- a pick set (small plastic screw driver handles on various metal point shafts)
- scotch brite pad to smooth out the inevitable scratches you will put on the piston surface, just dont scratch inside the groove when you remove them.

I also put new Bosche spark plugs in at the same time as you are right there once the coils are removed. Other tools, things:

- good torque wrench that works both clockwise and counter clockwise
- way to lift your car, we lifted and put a triple 2x8 block under front wheels, gives you enough access under the car to disconnect the coolant hoses from clips without removing hoses like the Besian instructions suggest (avoids bleeding the coolant system).
- I used the brake cleaner on all the parts / hoses / shields, frame, etc before putting back together, you wont reach alot of those spots ever again!
- blue tape and marker to label each coil as you remove it so you put back on the same cylinder
- remove the VANOS cap and do one piston at a time, put cap back on so you dont mix up pistons (they have a wear set to the cylinder)
- only use one roll of paper towels
- used 6x white terry towels (tossed)
- used two beach size towels to cover fender and engine to prevent scratches, etc and a nice spot to set the tools and instructions
- printed instructions in a 3 ring binder (easy to manage and set on towel above)
- two shop lights, good flashlight (to see nooks)
- pan to catch coolant when you raise the overflow tank too high even though instructions warn you about this
- pan to catch oil that VANOS will spit out when you pull metal covers and plastic caps, I followed instructions and put two white towels over the belts and hoses (see pic), they did their job
- folding table with towel on it to set all the parts in an organized group, in sequence with them coming off, easy to locate and put back on

... thats about it, an extra set of hands familiar with the next tool required (like you see on ER in the operating room) helped out HUGE.... Fudman was there with the next socket size, tool, wrench before I asked for it (he and I both had a 3 ring binder reading at the same time, his on the bench, mine under the hood), worked really well.

You can do it I'm sure, good luck.

I finally got around to fixing my VANOS today as well. I've had the parts for almost a year I think, and I've been in a real great place with working on my car lately. I am super happy with the outcome. i noticed a big improvement right away in the elimination of the bad stumble I had between 1000-3000 rpm. Drivability is much better now.

The whole process almost went perfectly, except I broke the friggin clip on the overflow reservoir electrical connector. I hate undoing those clips with the little flaps like that, I always break them.

I could not believe how hard not only my VANOS seals had become, but the my valve cover gaskets as well. They were completely plasticized. It came off in about 20 pieces.

My pistons were quite loose in the cylinders, so I expected it would be a good improvement. The seals weren't as bad as I thought they would be to expend and get into place.

Anyway, feeling great about another perfect day fixing up the car.

Bunk

Originally Posted by bunk

I finally got around to fixing my VANOS today as well. I've had the parts for almost a year I think, and I've been in a real great place with working on my car lately. I am super happy with the outcome. i noticed a big improvement right away in the elimination of the bad stumble I had between 1000-3000 rpm. Drivability is much better now.

The whole process almost went perfectly, except I broke the friggin clip on the overflow reservoir electrical connector. I hate undoing those clips with the little flaps like that, I always break them.

I could not believe how hard not only my VANOS seals had become, but the my valve cover gaskets as well. They were completely plasticized. It came off in about 20 pieces.

My pistons were quite loose in the cylinders, so I expected it would be a good improvement. The seals weren't as bad as I thought they would be to expend and get into place.

Anyway, feeling great about another perfect day fixing up the car.

Bunk

Awesome, sounds like your valve cover gasket was in the same condition mine was... amazing how molded hard plastic (vs. rubber) can still seal oil under pressure! I thought the same thing as I had to disconnect all th BMW-ism electrical clips with wire springs, plastic (compress these together), fold these back, etc.

I notice a "sharpness" "cripsness" in shifts now as well in that 1800-3800rpm range... will be interesting to see how colder weather impacts start up / idle, etc.

Great helpful info and experiences.

Originally Posted by Hooray!

B: Bought, U: Used, S: Suggest you purchase

Thanks Seth for the wonderful update for the VANOS seals parts list.

For me, (and maybe others), the BIGGEST hurdle is figuring out which parts to buy, which tools to get, and what else to do (while you're at it).

I've updated the recommended parts list with all your information.

Thanks!

You are welcome, do you plan to do your VANOS soon?

Originally Posted by Hooray!

You are welcome, do you plan to do your VANOS soon?

It takes me a LOT longer (like 100x longer) to do any job than you guys. Mostly I'm scared at first (unless I'm thrust into it as in the alternator).

In fact, I spent about 5 hours today finally repairing my trunk loom. The wires have been busted up and broken for, oh, I don't know how long, maybe a year? And I made a big mess of it all. Point is, it takes me a LONG time to do things, mostly because:
a) I have no clue what to do
b) I don't know which parts to buy
c) I don't know where to get a good price
d) I don't know if I'll have the right tools
e) I break a lot of things when I do do these jobs (it always happens)
f) I'm scared (see a, b, c, d, e, above).

So, yes, I WILL do my VANOS sometime. I already bought all the cooling system overhaul parts.

Q: Do you recommend doing the cooling system overhaul and VANOS and plugs at the same time?

Originally Posted by bluebee

It takes me a LOT longer (like 100x longer) to do any job than you guys. Mostly I'm scared at first (unless I'm thrust into it as in the alternator).

In fact, I spent about 5 hours today finally repairing my trunk loom. The wires have been busted up and broken for, oh, I don't know how long, maybe a year? And I made a big mess of it all. Point is, it takes me a LONG time to do things, mostly because:
a) I have no clue what to do
b) I don't know which parts to buy
c) I don't know where to get a good price
d) I don't know if I'll have the right tools
e) I break a lot of things when I do do these jobs (it always happens)
f) I'm scared (see a, b, c, d, e, above).

So, yes, I WILL do my VANOS sometime. I already bought all the cooling system overhaul parts.

Q: Do you recommend doing the cooling system overhaul and VANOS and plugs at the same time?

I'd have to concur with Fudman on this one, do one "major" thing at a time if you need to drive your card daily. The spark plugs can be done with the VANOS as you already have the coils off, plugs are simple screw out, torque in. The cooling system on the other hand is a seperate project. When you do the VANOS, you can keep all the coolant hoses connected except for the overflow tank which is the high point in the system anyways so where air will go. This means doing a VANOS does not require a cooling system bleed. Also, knowing how to spin off the fan / shroud from your VANOS experience will make the cooling system update that much easier.

Pretty much all e39's should have VANOS, Cooling System, CCV replaced by 100,000, each is a "day" job IMO. The CCV is next for me even though mine look mayo free at the valve cover connection, likely because I have a FL (hot) car.

Originally Posted by Hooray!

do one "major" thing at a time if you need to drive your card daily.

I do need it daily (although I'm currently unemployed ... but nothing lasts forever).

So this is the recommendation when doing VANOS:
a) Do cooling system overhaul first
b) Along with the cooling system, probably do a drive-belt system overhaul plus the PS reservoir hose & OFH gasket leak
c) Then, do VANOS & spark plugs as it's own job

knowing how to spin off the fan / shroud from your VANOS experience will make the cooling system update that much easier.

When I replaced my alternator (and drive belt system), I learned how to remove and reinstall (thanks to the cn90 rawhide trick) the fan clutch nut. I'm no longer afraid of that task!

The CCV is next for me even though mine look mayo free at the valve cover connection, likely because I have a FL (hot) car.

I'm also in a moderate climate. Is the CCV generally tackled all by itself or do you recommend coupling the CCV with one of the other major jobs?

Originally Posted by bluebee

Thanks Seth for the wonderful update for the VANOS seals parts list.

For me, (and maybe others), the BIGGEST hurdle is figuring out which parts to buy, which tools to get, and what else to do (while you're at it).

I've updated the recommended parts list with all your information.

Thanks!

I would bump these: 15 valve cover bolt grommet in the "Highly recommended" section.
There is no point buttuning up the new VCG with old, hard grommets - you will have oil leaks very soon.
Also, just because you will loose some coolant, when topping back up once the job is done, you might unscrew the bleed valve on the upper radiator hose. That plastic bleed valve, can desintegrate - I know it did on me when I changed the vanos. Have a new one ready as a "highly recommended" part, or even better the brass one.

0.02

The degree of Obsessive–Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD) exhibited by these forum members is greatly appreciated. Don't listen to friends, family members, or health care professionals; E39 owners love you and appreciate your postings.

Originally Posted by Johnny Canada

The degree of Obsessive–Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD) exhibited by these forum members is greatly appreciated. Don't listen to friends, family members, or health care professionals; E39 owners love you and appreciate your postings.

Excessive to someone is detailed and thorough to others. As long as forum members appreciate, keep at it!

Originally Posted by Johnny Canada

The degree of Obsessive–Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD) exhibited by these forum members is greatly appreciated. Don't listen to friends, family members, or health care professionals; E39 owners love you and appreciate your postings.

: ) It is amazing the resources you can find on these threads, complete with edited photos and the like. I know for one, that this is a HUGE help when you have your VANOS open, snap a plastic custom order BMW part and low and behold, you ordered the damn thing because another poster suggested you order it after they lived through four days (or worse) with no car waiting for a part from Germany! I say, more power captain!

Originally Posted by doru

I would bump these: 15 valve cover bolt grommet in the "Highly recommended" section.
There is no point buttuning up the new VCG with old, hard grommets - you will have oil leaks very soon.
Also, just because you will loose some coolant, when topping back up once the job is done, you might unscrew the bleed valve on the upper radiator hose. That plastic bleed valve, can desintegrate - I know it did on me when I changed the vanos. Have a new one ready as a "highly recommended" part, or even better the brass one.

0.02

Good add...

Originally Posted by bluebee

I'm also in a moderate climate. Is the CCV generally tackled all by itself or do you recommend coupling the CCV with one of the other major jobs?

I have not done my CCV yet but from what I've read and Fudman has said, it is an all day 6-8 hour affair so I would do that solo for sure.

Originally Posted by doru

I would bump 15 valve cover bolt grommet ... Have a new bleed screw ready

Thank you very much Doru. I added both comments to the thread on what to get for a VANOS job.

I don't know how many people out there are like me, but, if I don't have all my ducks lined up, I can't even THINK about doing the job. I envy you guys who can just start taking stuff apart and you get parts while you dig. I have to have everything in order and all the parts lined up before I can safely think of what to do. And even then, i screw up every time.

In a way, I'm always scared. I envy the boldness you guys have. Anyway, this recommended VANOS-KIT parts list will benefit me. I plan on using it to refer people who ask "what parts do we need for VANOS".

Thanks for helping to update the recommendations!

Originally Posted by Hooray!

I have not done my CCV yet but from what I've read and Fudman has said, it is an all day 6-8 hour affair so I would do that solo for sure.

OK. How does this look as a summary (please correct):

1. Do a complete cooling system overhaul at ~75K miles
2. Do a complete VANOS seals overhaul at ~75K miles (for the I6)
3. Do a complete belt-drive system overhaul at ~75K miles
4. Do a CCV replacement at ~100K miles

A. It's common to mix the cooling system & belt drive overhauls as the same parts are removed
B. It's common to add power steering hose check/fix & oil filter housing gasket check/fix to the belt-drive overhaul
C. It's common to add a spark-plug replacement with the VANOS seals as the same parts are removed
D. It's common to do the CCV all by itself as it is the more difficult of the three jobs
E. Plan ahead by stocking alternator rebuild parts; but if your alternator unexpectedly goes south, do the entire belt drive system at the same time as the alternator.