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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #26  
Old 09-28-2010, 09:07 AM
johnnyc51 johnnyc51 is offline
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So, the front end completely changes from struts to double wishbone; the sport pkg tires go from high performance summer to grand touring summer, but the change in driving dynamics, or feel, seems to come only from the EPS.

I feel that there are other variables here and I'm not quite ready to drink the EPS Kool-Aid yet.......
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  #27  
Old 09-28-2010, 09:28 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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You guys reckon Motortrend was testing a different car?

Quote "Body motions are well controlled, the car never pitching much in corners, with plenty of grip on tap. Steering is more responsive and linear than in the outgoing 5. The ride quality is firm, but never harsh -- can't wait for the next M5 that'll be based on this chassis architecture!

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz10q000ZdD

By the way, I've not read any reviewer saying anything negative concerning adaptive drive's active anti-roll (cos it works perfectly). There are differing views of its steering but how many of you guys agree that A6's steering is far superior to F10's, if it is any superior at all? And if you follow C & D, better not tick any option, they like it bare

Last edited by bm323; 09-28-2010 at 09:29 AM.
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  #28  
Old 09-28-2010, 10:59 AM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I do agree with chrischeung though that for a track car or pure sports car I'd prefer a really stiff suspension combined with passive anti roll bars to ARS due to the predictable behaviour.
So let's look at the two words in bold.

If someone prefers something over another, no real argument, it's what they like. I may note that I don't agree, but tastes are different.

When we get to predictable behavior with respect to the F10 suspension way too many of you have is backwards. DHP (ZDH) is not some switch that allows you to progressively make the suspension stiffer, quite the opposite in fact. First, don't forget the 'D', Dynamic, changing in real time. Add to that the setting that allow you to dial in how soft the car is allowed to be.

Put an F10 in Comfort and drive it hard. The suspension comes up to the same stiffness as if you were in Sport as the situation dictates. There is a ceiling to the suspension from which everything else is derived. If you approach a corner in Normal and expect the suspension to handle differently than if in Sport, that only holds true if you aren't pushing the car, as the suspension doesn't need to be stiffer to handle the car.

Quite a different driving experience. Whoever made the comments about practice and learning the car have it half right, it's not different cars depending on the setting, but it's about learning the ceiling, trusting the car. Drive an F10 slowly and it feels bigger and heavier. Push it and it gets smaller and lighter.

For those that get it, enjoy. For those that don't, your loss.
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  #29  
Old 09-28-2010, 11:12 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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One can see C & D's tester's mindset, quote "When kitted as both our cars were, with the $2700 Dynamic Handling package and $2200 Sport package, the 550i experience can be tailored using the capo di tutti capi—or “boss of all bosses,” as the Italian mobsters used to say—a system called adaptive drive. It’s a set of preferences, controlled with center-console buttons or through the iDrive interface, for most of the car’s driving characteristics, from ride to throttle response to handling. Although the discerning driver (or hopeless tinkerer) can fine-tune these through iDrive, it’s easiest to leave the system in one of its four main settings: comfort, normal, sport, and sport plus."
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  #30  
Old 09-28-2010, 12:39 PM
TMQ TMQ is offline
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C/D has tested M3 which also has a complex array of settings and it wasn't much of an issue.

Bottom line, F10 is a bigger and more luxurious vehicle, and the overall package is probably better than the competition for the targeted customers. Personally I don't plan to buy F10 any time soon, but for others, are you really going to buy a MB, Infiniti, Jaguar, or the dated A6?
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  #31  
Old 09-28-2010, 01:15 PM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMQ View Post
C/D has tested M3 which also has a complex array of settings and it wasn't much of an issue.
And not quite as complex, nor certainly not as wide a range. It is interesting to see what C&D had to say about the M3 steering in their first review:

Quote:
When we're talking about new 3-series BMWs, expectations run high, particularly so for M versions, and we arrived hoping for full-on fabulous, which the M3 mostly delivered. The surprising exception was in the steering department. The M3's hydraulic rack has a much quicker, 12.5:1 ratio than that of regular 3-series and features two settings, normal and sport. In its normal setting, the steering is feather light, far lighter than in a regular 3-series and, according to BMW, "enables the driver to park the car much more easily." Come on, is this what we really need on the M3? At 100-plus-mph speeds on the highway, the steering borders on scary light in its regular setting. It's certainly accurate, however, and the sport setting clears up much of the lightness problem, but it still has a larger-than-we'd-like dead spot on-center and could use even more heft, in our opinion. Worse is that the level of tingly, tactile feedback coming through that thick-rimmed wheel seems to be dialed back a bit compared with the last M3 or even a current-gen 328i or 335i.
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  #32  
Old 09-28-2010, 05:00 PM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Having owned an E39 M5, I think C&D hit it right on the head. The F10 550i has the luxury and refinement of a 7 series and the performance of an E39 M5. In short, it is my dream car. Just one more thing is needed: all wheel drive. Oh yeh, it has that too!

Now mix in the new Dinan software due out next month with 495hp and 570 lb ft of torque and you have a car with nearly the performance of an F10 M5!
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  #33  
Old 09-28-2010, 07:41 PM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richschneid View Post
Now mix in the new Dinan software due out next month with 495hp and 570 lb ft of torque and you have a car with nearly the performance of an F10 M5!
That remains to be seen.

I think you'll see a higher percentage of 535i owners 'boost' their car, if you want M5 performance, or anything close, best to buy an M5.
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  #34  
Old 09-29-2010, 04:03 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadtaggert View Post
That remains to be seen.

I think you'll see a higher percentage of 535i owners 'boost' their car, if you want M5 performance, or anything close, best to buy an M5.
The reason I won't get an M5 is because I need xDrive for the snow and ACC for the interstate. If the F10 M5 came with xDrive like the Porsche Panamera Turbo can be had with AWD, and the ACC was compatable with the double clutch SMG then I would definitely get an F10 M5. But alas, it won't, so I'll have to settle for second best.

Do you think the Dinan software upgrade is a bad idea? I've never done it before so I have a little reluctance. It is sold by my local BMW dealer.
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  #35  
Old 09-29-2010, 06:11 AM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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I'd forgotten you were looking for xDrive Rich.

Dinan has an excellent reputation. My comments were based on the 550i being well powered now, do you need another 100 hp or so? Most that answer yes to that would probably be happier with an M.
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  #36  
Old 09-29-2010, 06:35 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadtaggert View Post
I'd forgotten you were looking for xDrive Rich.

Dinan has an excellent reputation. My comments were based on the 550i being well powered now, do you need another 100 hp or so? Most that answer yes to that would probably be happier with an M.
It depends on your definition of the word "need" in this context. The question I ask myself is would it be "fun"? I do "need" the AWD and the ACC. Besides the M5 is almost an additional 200 hp compared to the 550i. But the torque would be pretty close in the Dinan.

Besides, the Dinan software is only about $3000 which is less than the additional $20,000 for the M5. I just hope the Dinan doesn't hurt the drivability of the car in terms of any hesitations or flat spots in the torque or power curves. Of course, the engine in the M5 and the 550i is the same. It's just a different state of tune. So, the Dinan might not necessarily cause drivability problems.
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  #37  
Old 09-29-2010, 07:03 AM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richschneid View Post
Of course, the engine in the M5 and the 550i is the same. It's just a different state of tune
No. Might want to check your facts here.
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  #38  
Old 09-29-2010, 07:49 AM
DXK DXK is offline
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This describes the differences pretty well:http://www.bimmerfile.com/2009/05/01...otor-in-depth/
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  #39  
Old 09-29-2010, 09:57 AM
HPIA4v2 HPIA4v2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richschneid View Post
It depends on your definition of the word "need" in this context. The question I ask myself is would it be "fun"? I do "need" the AWD and the ACC. Besides the M5 is almost an additional 200 hp compared to the 550i. But the torque would be pretty close in the Dinan.

Besides, the Dinan software is only about $3000 which is less than the additional $20,000 for the M5. I just hope the Dinan doesn't hurt the drivability of the car in terms of any hesitations or flat spots in the torque or power curves. Of course, the engine in the M5 and the 550i is the same. It's just a different state of tune. So, the Dinan might not necessarily cause drivability problems.
Just wait for GIAC for better value in tune. GIAC is hailed to be the flash of choice in N54, being linear throughout power band.

In any rate the ?63 is based of the old N/M62 4.4i V8 block with different internals to make it as N63 and S63 so in a way the new M engine is the same as 550i. Also the S63 is boosted @21PSI stock(can't imagine the engine block will sustain any more boost if you decide to tune the M///) and the 550i is probably around 15PSI stock so Dinan/GIAC probably just increase it to 21PSI. With bigger FMIC, fuel injector, WP, even meth injector I can't see why the 550i can't produce 550HP.
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  #40  
Old 09-29-2010, 10:26 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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"With virtually the same block as the revolutionary N63 4.4l reverse flow V8 as in the 750i and X6 xDrive50i, this ///M motor features significant revisions in nearly every other aspect."

This is what I meant. Of course, the internals are different and upgraded but the block is the same. This is what I meant by a "different state of tune".
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  #41  
Old 09-29-2010, 10:31 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HPIA4v2 View Post
Just wait for GIAC for better value in tune. GIAC is hailed to be the flash of choice in N54, being linear throughout power band.

In any rate the ?63 is based of the old N/M62 4.4i V8 block with different internals to make it as N63 and S63 so in a way the new M engine is the same as 550i. Also the S63 is boosted @21PSI stock(can't imagine the engine block will sustain any more boost if you decide to tune the M///) and the 550i is probably around 15PSI stock so Dinan/GIAC probably just increase it to 21PSI. With bigger FMIC, fuel injector, WP, even meth injector I can't see why the 550i can't produce 550HP.
Does GIAC offer the same warranty as Dinan? The thing I like about Dinan is that it is sold and installed by my local BMW dealer, so they have to work together on any warranty issues.
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  #42  
Old 09-29-2010, 12:03 PM
HPIA4v2 HPIA4v2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richschneid View Post
Does GIAC offer the same warranty as Dinan? The thing I like about Dinan is that it is sold and installed by my local BMW dealer, so they have to work together on any warranty issues.
Off topic a bit.

GIAC never claims it has waranty but Dinan...

It's judgement call when it comes to tune with waranty, my beef with Dinan business model is that they don;t have their own shop (dealer is really moonlighting Dinan while is a franchise entity with BMW, and BMW doesn't endorse Dinan in any way form or shape).
I heard, not real experience, that BMW-dealer denied waranty work due to Dinan tune, then Dinan looked at it and deemed that the problem was due to defective parts that common so kicked it back to BMW and at the end "potentially" owner pick up the tab.
A better business model would be Dinan own/operated dealers so it's one stop, Dinan car has problem then no question ask, like Costco. So all this waranty talk with Dinan has big asterik in it.

Also BMW-dealer that installed Dinan tune reports the VIN to BMW so the car won't be CPOed or even "good-will repair"(out of waranty repair by BMW on some cases).
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  #43  
Old 09-29-2010, 12:58 PM
TMQ TMQ is offline
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My take is that if you live near Dinan's shop in CA, definitely do it. Otherwise, anything can go.

It's probably better to forgo the dynamic handling package and get the Dinan suspension package. I don't know if Dina will fix the steering feel though.
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  #44  
Old 09-29-2010, 01:09 PM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HPIA4v2 View Post
Off topic a bit.

GIAC never claims it has waranty but Dinan...

It's judgement call when it comes to tune with waranty, my beef with Dinan business model is that they don;t have their own shop (dealer is really moonlighting Dinan while is a franchise entity with BMW, and BMW doesn't endorse Dinan in any way form or shape).
I heard, not real experience, that BMW-dealer denied waranty work due to Dinan tune, then Dinan looked at it and deemed that the problem was due to defective parts that common so kicked it back to BMW and at the end "potentially" owner pick up the tab.
A better business model would be Dinan own/operated dealers so it's one stop, Dinan car has problem then no question ask, like Costco. So all this waranty talk with Dinan has big asterik in it.

Also BMW-dealer that installed Dinan tune reports the VIN to BMW so the car won't be CPOed or even "good-will repair"(out of waranty repair by BMW on some cases).
"I heard, not real experience, that BMW-dealer denied waranty work due to Dinan tune, then Dinan looked at it and deemed that the problem was due to defective parts that common so kicked it back to BMW and at the end "potentially" owner pick up the tab."

Makes sense, but have you ever heard of this happening when the Dinan dealer is a BMW dealer as well. I have heard that if you get the Dinan software from a BMW dealer they settle it themselves without the car owner having to get involved. I have no problem with out of warranty work or not getting a CPO. I have my 650i on the lot as a CPO and it hasn't helped. The only interested buyer I had told be he didn't want the CPO and wouldn't pay extra for it.

The out of warranty "good will" repairs I have had were the HVAC blower and the front brake pads, in no way related to the engine. I'll check with my service manager to see what the official BMW position is on this.
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Last edited by richschneid; 09-29-2010 at 01:18 PM.
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  #45  
Old 09-29-2010, 01:17 PM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMQ View Post
My take is that if you live near Dinan's shop in CA, definitely do it. Otherwise, anything can go.

It's probably better to forgo the dynamic handling package and get the Dinan suspension package. I don't know if Dina will fix the steering feel though.
My car arrives today in port on the east coast. It has the DHP but does not have electric steering. It's 550i xDrive with hydralic steering, so it may not need to be "fixed". I really liked the DHP on the rear drive 550i I drove. And I sorely missed the EDC on my 650i. I loved the ARS, but my new car will have both ARS and EDC. You know I love the active steering on my 650i and would definitely get the IAS if it were available with xDrive.

Different strokes for different folks.
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