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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #51  
Old 10-21-2010, 07:42 AM
jsf1993 jsf1993 is offline
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At the time the E60 was introduced, most E39 owners were convinced that BMW took a MAJOR step backwards. I suspect that many still feel that way today. I detested the changes so much that I went from my E39 to a MB E-500 for 3 years. (God, how I was disappointed with that MB.). But, I needed the MB "experience" to get to the point that I could accept the E60. No question that the E60 drove much better than the MB. But, I never felt the same "connection" with my E60 as I did with my E39. I learned to love the E60 over time and realized that no other car in its price range could compete. That holds true once again with the new F10 (except that I don't need time to learn to love the new model).

Many Porsche 911 owners lament the changes made to newer models that have impacted the personality of that car, as well. Each succeeding generation has become more refined and luxurious than the prior iteration. This has resulted in some trade-offs. We're experiencing the same thing with the 5 series evolution.
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  #52  
Old 10-21-2010, 09:56 AM
carnuts3 carnuts3 is offline
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After driving six BMW's over the past 14 odd yrs, I can honestly say that my decision (disappointing as it was) not to buy the F10 was because it just didn't feel like a BMW. for the reasons already stated The 'wow' factor was conspicuously absent. Not so with my previous bimmers. They all had that DNA that made the driving experience feel special and uniquely BMW. I didn't have to add $10,000 in options or drive 100 mph on a test track to satisfy my expectations of what makes a BMW a BMW. All I had to do is roll out of my dealers' driveway and drive a couple of blocks on the local streets - and instantly the "wow', got to have it factor hit me... Not so with the F10. That's just me.
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  #53  
Old 10-21-2010, 10:55 AM
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markl53 markl53 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carnuts3 View Post
After driving six BMW's over the past 14 odd yrs, I can honestly say that my decision (disappointing as it was) not to buy the F10 was because it just didn't feel like a BMW. for the reasons already stated The 'wow' factor was conspicuously absent. Not so with my previous bimmers. They all had that DNA that made the driving experience feel special and uniquely BMW. I didn't have to add $10,000 in options or drive 100 mph on a test track to satisfy my expectations of what makes a BMW a BMW. All I had to do is roll out of my dealers' driveway and drive a couple of blocks on the local streets - and instantly the "wow', got to have it factor hit me... Not so with the F10. That's just me.
So interesting -- we must be in totally different places in what we're looking for. I had 2 previous BMW's, an '05 330i 6MT (non sport) and '08 335i 6MT (non sport). I reached a point where I could "move up", and thought I wanted an E Class. Drove that and was not overwhelmed by the power and other factors. Went to my BMW dealer, hopped in a 535i. As soon as I pulled out of the dealer's driveway, made a left turn onto the highway..... "WOW, this is it", auto transmission and all. I now have my very own F10 535i non sport in my garage and I'm quite happy with it. Feels like a BMW and all, oh, except the steering is kind of light up to about 25 mph.
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Last edited by markl53; 10-21-2010 at 10:56 AM.
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  #54  
Old 10-21-2010, 11:09 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carnuts3 View Post
After driving six BMW's over the past 14 odd yrs, I can honestly say that my decision (disappointing as it was) not to buy the F10 was because it just didn't feel like a BMW. for the reasons already stated The 'wow' factor was conspicuously absent. Not so with my previous bimmers. They all had that DNA that made the driving experience feel special and uniquely BMW. I didn't have to add $10,000 in options or drive 100 mph on a test track to satisfy my expectations of what makes a BMW a BMW. All I had to do is roll out of my dealers' driveway and drive a couple of blocks on the local streets - and instantly the "wow', got to have it factor hit me... Not so with the F10. That's just me.
When I got my first bimmer in 1992 it was the first 740i. It certainly felt like a BMW to me. It was fantastic. My new 550i is about the same size and feels every bit as much like a BMW as my old 740i, just better in just about every single way. Maybe the new 5 has just moved up to a different class of BMW.

I'll bet if you drive the new 3 series in two years properly equipped the way you want it, the old WOW factor will return when you drive it out of the dealer's driveway.
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  #55  
Old 10-21-2010, 11:11 AM
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Bethesda E39 Bethesda E39 is offline
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I only trust CR if I'm in the market for a washing machine.
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  #56  
Old 10-21-2010, 12:38 PM
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Kilgore Trout Kilgore Trout is offline
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I really have very little comments about the new 5-series because of limited exposure.

I am going to take issue however with the "I trust CR for washing machines" or the "CR is only good for surveys" stuff (without meaning to be disrespectful to the above posters). I subscribe to their web service and I've gotten to interact quite a bit with their engineers. Those guys are knowledgeable (and brutally objective) car enthusiasts. They've forgotten more about cars than most of us will ever learn. Their testing procedures are absolutely top notch, and I've continually found their evaluations to be dead-on accurate. In fact, I'd say their car evaluations are probably the best road tests out there - far more trustworthy than C & D, MT, etc because they are devoid of fanboyism.

The trick with CR is to read their reviews, ignore the total score (which is basically silly) and then interpret their findings in light of your own needs. For example, CR will downgrade a car for having limited space in the backseat, but you personally may not have a family and may not need people-carrying capacity.

We should also treat their comments with ergonomics with a grain of salt. The thing I've found with the BMW controls in general is that it takes a long time to get used to some features, and then you come to really like them.

In any case, the fact that we don't agree with a review doesn't mean it was done poorly.
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Last edited by Kilgore Trout; 10-21-2010 at 12:45 PM.
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  #57  
Old 10-21-2010, 12:52 PM
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johnbmw6 johnbmw6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richschneid View Post
I think the handling on my 550i xDrive is superior to that of my '93 740i, my '99 540i sport package, my '00 M5, and my '06 650i sport package. I have almost 200,000 miles on these cars and have driven all the M cars on the track at the BMW facility in South Carolina. I don't think these Consumer's Reports reviewers have any idea what they are talking about. I test drove the 550i RWD very fast and hard on twisty hilly back roads in the hills outside of Pittsburgh. It handled better than my 650i even equipped with only the OE grand touring tires. The xDrive version handles even better than the RWD car.

They also complained about the controls. The controls on the F10 are by far the best of any BMW I have ever owned. They just didn't have the time to actually learn how they work. Once you learn them they are nearly perfect and extremely driver friendly and easy to use.

The same limitations apply to the Car and Driver testers to a lesser extent. Besides, to really understand the type of car BMW makes for enthusiasts one has to test the RWD cars with integral active steering, dynamic handling package, and the sport package. The only thing that might be also needed is to put high performance tires on the car instead of grand touring tires. The xDrive versions like my car are not available with IAS but this is made up for by the instantaneous rear to front torque vectoring that virtually eliminates oversteer in hard driving. This I can tell you from personal experience.
Totally agree Rich, these so called "testers" should read tossers, just have no idea about the controls or real driving of the vehicles they test.
You need more than a run round the block to make an anyway near accurate assessment for what your driving. The latest IDrive is dead easy to use.
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  #58  
Old 10-21-2010, 06:52 PM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
I really have very little comments about the new 5-series because of limited exposure.

I am going to take issue however with the "I trust CR for washing machines" or the "CR is only good for surveys" stuff (without meaning to be disrespectful to the above posters). I subscribe to their web service and I've gotten to interact quite a bit with their engineers. Those guys are knowledgeable (and brutally objective) car enthusiasts. They've forgotten more about cars than most of us will ever learn. Their testing procedures are absolutely top notch, and I've continually found their evaluations to be dead-on accurate. In fact, I'd say their car evaluations are probably the best road tests out there - far more trustworthy than C & D, MT, etc because they are devoid of fanboyism.

The trick with CR is to read their reviews, ignore the total score (which is basically silly) and then interpret their findings in light of your own needs. For example, CR will downgrade a car for having limited space in the backseat, but you personally may not have a family and may not need people-carrying capacity.

We should also treat their comments with ergonomics with a grain of salt. The thing I've found with the BMW controls in general is that it takes a long time to get used to some features, and then you come to really like them.

In any case, the fact that we don't agree with a review doesn't mean it was done poorly.
This CR reviewer who tested the F10 is talking crap. You probably didn't read http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...8&postcount=11
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  #59  
Old 10-21-2010, 11:52 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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I might have to start to subscribe to CR since the review is pretty much spot on.
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  #60  
Old 10-22-2010, 12:04 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I might have to start to subscribe to CR since the review is pretty much spot on.
Do you agree with what is said at 2 min 5 seconds ie the numb-on-center is particularly so when the F10 is at its limits, doing twisties/turns (as opposed to when the F10 is going straight)?

Last edited by bm323; 10-22-2010 at 12:06 AM.
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  #61  
Old 10-22-2010, 12:10 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
Do you agree with what is said at 2 min 5 seconds ie the numb-on-center is particularly so when the F10 is at its limits, doing twisties/turns (as opposed to when the F10 is going straight)?
What I recall he says that the steering has a vague center feel and lack of feedback something that he could have quoted from me.
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  #62  
Old 10-22-2010, 12:12 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
What I recall he says that the steering has a vague center feel and lack of feedback something that he could have quoted from me.
Check out what he said at 2:05. Do you agree that the numb-on-center is particularly so when the F10 is at its limits, doing twisties/turns (as opposed to when the F10 is going straight)?
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  #63  
Old 10-22-2010, 12:16 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
Check out what he said at 2:05. Do you agree that the numb-on-center is particularly so when the F10 is at its limits, doing twisties/turns (as opposed to when the F10 is going straight)?
I don't know since I'm not sure what he means with numb on center. The steering is always numb at any speed or direction, it's of course much more of a problem when cornering so perhaps that's his complaint. If so, I agree. I find it a bit difficult to take corners with the steering at center

Last edited by solstice; 10-22-2010 at 12:17 AM.
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  #64  
Old 10-22-2010, 12:24 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I don't know since I'm not sure what he means with numb on center. The steering is always numb at any speed or direction, it's of course much more of a problem when cornering so perhaps that's his complaint. If so, I agree.
If I recall correctly what pharding complained, then both of you are not in agreement also, your complaint is always numb, which is not numb-on-center as alleged by the CR reviewer I have not come across any reviewer (those negative about the steering) who says that the numbness is particularly so as what the CR reviewer is crapping about.

Last edited by bm323; 10-22-2010 at 12:39 AM.
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  #65  
Old 10-22-2010, 12:37 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
If I recall correctly what pharding complained, then both of you are not in agreement also, your complaint is always numb, which is not numb-on-center as alleged by the CR reviewer I have not come across any reviewer (those negative about the steering) who says that the numbness is particularly so when the F10 is doing turns.
The guy obviously means something else since you can't take turns at the limit with the steering at center. It's forgiveable, anyone can do it. Imo he got it right but uses confusing wording in this specific case. The steering has a vague center feel and lack of feedback as he says. It's more of a problem when you corner, especially at the limits when you really need feedback about grip level and road surface. If you want to turn it into a lecture in the english language or complain about him being unclear at that particular point fine but imo he has the fundamentals down.
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  #66  
Old 10-22-2010, 12:44 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
The guy obviously means something else since you can't take turns at the limit with the steering at center. It's forgiveable, anyone can do it. Imo he got it right but uses confusing wording in this specific case. The steering has a vague center feel and lack of feedback as he says. It's more of a problem when you corner, especially at the limits when you really need feedback about grip level and road surface. If you want to turn it into a lecture in the english language or complain about him being unclear at that particular point fine but imo he has the fundamentals down.
Sure if it's a matter of language. But from what is said in the video, it's not a language issue; this guy is using terms used by other reviewers and knows nuts what he's talking.
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  #67  
Old 10-22-2010, 12:49 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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I've learnt long ago to never discredit someone for not knowing the correct lingo. He has been driving the car and feels it has shortcomings and so what if he re-uses phrases to describe what he experienced.
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  #68  
Old 10-22-2010, 01:32 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I've learnt long ago to never discredit someone for not knowing the correct lingo. He has been driving the car and feels it has shortcomings and so what if he re-uses phrases to describe what he experienced.
This is your opinion. From the way he comments, my opinion is that he knows nuts and is talking crap.
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  #69  
Old 10-22-2010, 01:52 AM
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enigma enigma is offline
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He doesn't agree with you. Ergo, he must be talking crap. Yeah, that makes sense.

Why are some people so stuck on the notion that everyone is plagiarizing C&D's words and opinions? I maintained, ever since my first test drive at the BMW Ultimate Driving event, that this one didn't meet my subjective expectations (mainly steering and weight). I must have traveled back in time and repeated the C&D article?

Maybe it's your turn to look yourself in the mirror and ask whether it is you who's brain-washed into repeating what BMW ///Marking is spewing?
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  #70  
Old 10-22-2010, 01:56 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by enigma View Post
He doesn't agree with you. Ergo, he must be talking crap. Yeah, that makes sense.

Why are some people so stuck on the notion that everyone is plagiarizing C&D's words and opinions? I maintained, ever since my first test drive at the BMW Ultimate Driving event, that this one didn't meet my subjective expectations (mainly steering and weight). I must have traveled back in time and repeated the C&D article?

Maybe it's your turn to look yourself in the mirror and ask whether it is you who's brain-washed into repeating what BMW ///Marking is spewing?
You are crapping now. My opinion that this CR reviewer is crapping not cos he doesn't agree with me. Read the posts before you shi* in your backyard. Did I even suggest that solstice is crapping cos i don't agree with him?

Last edited by bm323; 10-22-2010 at 02:18 AM.
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  #71  
Old 10-22-2010, 04:57 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Clearly, everyone here seems to agree that opinions about the steering are subjective and the amount of "feedback" and "feel" is not independently measurable using objective criteria. What can be objectively measured includes things like the number of degrees of steering wheel rotation and the corresponding number of degrees that the car turns. The amount of force needed to be applied to the steering wheel to rotate it at different speeds and steering settings.

But whether or not a particular person likes or dislikes how the steering "feels" is by definition subjective. Another question which is also interesting would be to the have the same person give his opinion when he first drives the car and then a month or two later after driving it everyday. I don't have electric steering (the xDrive steering has hydralic assist) but even after two weeks of ownership even the steering in comfort mode in parking lots seems a lot "heftier" than when I first drove the car. From a purely neurophysiologic perspective the human brain always adapts in some way to sensory input over time. The nature and amount of this adaptation will always vary from individual to individual. So, my experience here is purely subjective and not applicable to others, but that does not exclude the some people will have a similar subjective experience to the one I am having.

I also think that it is reasonable to evalauate cars with and without IAS back to back by the same person before making generalizations about the steering on all F10s. This goes for the hydralic assisted steering on the xDrive models as well.
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