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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #1  
Old 11-30-2010, 07:46 PM
kocsis kocsis is offline
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I drove a Buick

Today I brought in my Porsche for service and got a 2011 Buick LaCrosse rental from Enterprise. Drove better than I thought. I can see why some people compare its steering to the new 5-er. Obviously, the Buick is much looser, vaguer, drifty-er in the steering, but in some way it reminds me of the F10 steering, even the hydraulic one in the 550ix. Does not feel like your car is on rails, as did my 2001 M5. It is vague and somewhat loose. But admittedly that's an unfair comparison - maybe the new F10 M5 will feel more like the "Ultimate Driving Machine" than "Joy".....
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  #2  
Old 11-30-2010, 07:52 PM
Rafa Rafa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kocsis View Post
Today I brought in my Porsche for service and got a 2011 Buick LaCrosse rental from Enterprise. Drove better than I thought. I can see why some people compare its steering to the new 5-er. Obviously, the Buick is much looser, vaguer, drifty-er in the steering, but in some way it reminds me of the F10 steering, even the hydraulic one in the 550ix. Does not feel like your car is on rails, as did my 2001 M5. It is vague and somewhat loose. But admittedly that's an unfair comparison - maybe the new F10 M5 will feel more like the "Ultimate Driving Machine" than "Joy".....

Well, one can always compare the F10 to the LaCrosse, but if the Buick is MUCH looser, vaguer and drifty-er than the F10, that settles it for me.
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  #3  
Old 11-30-2010, 07:54 PM
kocsis kocsis is offline
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It's also $30k, not $70+
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  #4  
Old 11-30-2010, 07:56 PM
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Stealth.Pilot Stealth.Pilot is offline
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It's a front wheel drive car. It's a gussied up Malibu.
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  #5  
Old 11-30-2010, 08:00 PM
Rafa Rafa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kocsis View Post
It's also $30k, not $70+
The extra 40K buys a lot of things other than steering feel. The 1 series and the 3 series are closer to 30K and the steering is tight. It is not that BMW cannot make a 5 with tighter steering... It is just that they chose not to as a business strategy.
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  #6  
Old 12-01-2010, 04:33 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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It's a front wheel drive car. It's a gussied up Malibu.
Actually, it's not. It's a re-designed Opel Insignia. Based on the Epsilon II, not the Epsilon platform. Much improved vs. the Malibu.
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  #7  
Old 12-01-2010, 12:37 PM
Emilner Emilner is offline
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The Lacrosse seems to be quite a car. I test drove the Enclave and was quite impressed.

I do love the purposeful jab though. "Obviously, the Buick is much looser, vaguer, drifty-er in the steering- but it reminds me of the F10" LOL. There is no comparison in steering between the two....
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  #8  
Old 12-01-2010, 02:14 PM
sambb sambb is offline
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Told you so!
OK, that isn't fair.
Look, I have driven the buick, and it is the closest thing to the f10 steering out there.
They are similar - frighteningly so.
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  #9  
Old 12-01-2010, 02:16 PM
Chpqdk Chpqdk is offline
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Thank God I read your post in time to cancel delivery of my 550i which was scheduled to be delivered in 3 weeks. After driving 7 different BMW's over the past 30 years I'm going out first thing tomorrow to buy the Buick of my dreams. By the way, went to lunch today with a friend in his brand new Porsche Panamera. Boy is he going to be jealous when he sees my new Buick.
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  #10  
Old 12-01-2010, 02:18 PM
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Thank God I read your post in time to cancel delivery of my 550i which was scheduled to be delivered in 3 weeks. After driving 7 different BMW's over the past 30 years I'm going out first thing tomorrow to buy the Buick of my dreams. By the way, went to lunch today with a friend in his brand new Porsche Panamera. Boy is he going to be jealous when he sees my new Buick.
If you want to do it right, you'll go for the Regal.
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  #11  
Old 12-01-2010, 02:40 PM
blackhawk_pilot blackhawk_pilot is offline
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Ensure you get some spinners on it, and for gods sake don't forget to post pics of it. Is buick offering "dark graphite"?
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  #12  
Old 12-01-2010, 04:08 PM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kocsis View Post
Today I brought in my Porsche for service and got a 2011 Buick LaCrosse rental from Enterprise. Drove better than I thought. I can see why some people compare its steering to the new 5-er. Obviously, the Buick is much looser, vaguer, drifty-er in the steering, but in some way it reminds me of the F10 steering, even the hydraulic one in the 550ix. Does not feel like your car is on rails, as did my 2001 M5. It is vague and somewhat loose. But admittedly that's an unfair comparison - maybe the new F10 M5 will feel more like the "Ultimate Driving Machine" than "Joy".....
I pushed my 550i xDrive today on the same winding road that I routinely drove my 540i sport package, E39 M5, and 650i sport package. What I noticed was that in sport mode and shifting the sport tranmission manually, the steering tightened up and with even with just the performance snow tires the car felt just as tight or tighter than my other cars. The feedback and precision of the steering was excellent. The car feels very different when pushed hard than it does in casual driving. So, it may feel "Buick like" in sedate driving, but it certainly feels even more sporting and BMW like than my previous BMWs when pushed hard. And I drove those BMWs every day for a total of 11 years, so I think I have a good basis of comparison, especially since it was on the same stretch of very familiar road in hard driving. It very much handled like it was "on rails". The xDrive definitely is superior in handling to RWD, it really feels like the car is "on rails". I suspect that when I get my max performance summer tires on in the Spring it will be even more so.

But the car is much more refined in normal driving and the steering is lighter at low speeds and low lateral g forces. I think that is what people are experiencing when they say it is Buick or Lexus like. I just think and feel that it will blow the socks off my previous BMWs in hard driving.
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Last edited by richschneid; 12-01-2010 at 04:10 PM.
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  #13  
Old 12-01-2010, 04:08 PM
Emilner Emilner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sambb View Post
Told you so!
OK, that isn't fair.
Look, I have driven the buick, and it is the closest thing to the f10 steering out there.
They are similar - frighteningly so.
Boy do you hate this car. Why did you buy it???????
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  #14  
Old 12-01-2010, 04:48 PM
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Boy do you hate this car. Why did you buy it???????
He didn't, he doesn't have one, he's a troll! Or the truth is deep down inside he wants one, and cant get one, so he hates on it non-stop.

Ignore user is a wonderful thing...
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  #15  
Old 12-01-2010, 06:01 PM
Stanesq Stanesq is offline
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Seriously. I drove a 2010 911 at Paul Miller. It is not the same car I remember driving back in the late 1980s. A friend of mine has a Mustang GT which is somewhat like the Carrera. Then again, the Mustang GT is a faster car than the Porsche and has more horsepower. Not to mention that the Mustang handles awesomely. So if you bought a Porsche, you could have saved yourself about $50K by getting a Mustang GT. Maybe trade your Porsche in at your local Ford dealer. You might even have some change left over to buy a Buick Lacrosse that you are so fond of driving too.

Last edited by Stanesq; 12-01-2010 at 06:09 PM.
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  #16  
Old 12-01-2010, 06:39 PM
kocsis kocsis is offline
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My point was that there is an interesting convergence between cars, American cars are starting to drive more like European cars and European spotrts sedans are starting to move in the direction of softness. BMW's shift from the "ultimate driving machine" slogan to "Joy" is not accidental. Nonetheless, there is of course no comparison. The 550ix is a great car and I enjoy driving it.

true about the current Porsche 911. However, I actually think that Porsche has maintained the gap between its enthusiast feel and the American muscle cars. I have driven a number of Mustangs and I think they are terrible. Worse, for what they pretend to be, than the Buick which is pretty true to its mission....
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  #17  
Old 12-01-2010, 06:40 PM
Stevej2001 Stevej2001 is offline
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Before I ordered my new F10 I actually drove a LaCrosse as it's had some good reviews (especially with the turbo now just coming out). It wasn't half bad. At the price vs the BMW, it would be a good value.

That said, you'll notice I didn't buy it. I couldn't bring myself to drive a Buick. I also tried out the CTS but didn't fit in it.
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  #18  
Old 12-01-2010, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richschneid View Post
I pushed my 550i xDrive today on the same winding road that I routinely drove my 540i sport package, E39 M5, and 650i sport package. What I noticed was that in sport mode and shifting the sport tranmission manually, the steering tightened up and with even with just the performance snow tires the car felt just as tight or tighter than my other cars. The feedback and precision of the steering was excellent. The car feels very different when pushed hard than it does in casual driving. So, it may feel "Buick like" in sedate driving, but it certainly feels even more sporting and BMW like than my previous BMWs when pushed hard. And I drove those BMWs every day for a total of 11 years, so I think I have a good basis of comparison, especially since it was on the same stretch of very familiar road in hard driving. It very much handled like it was "on rails". The xDrive definitely is superior in handling to RWD, it really feels like the car is "on rails". I suspect that when I get my max performance summer tires on in the Spring it will be even more so.

But the car is much more refined in normal driving and the steering is lighter at low speeds and low lateral g forces. I think that is what people are experiencing when they say it is Buick or Lexus like. I just think and feel that it will blow the socks off my previous BMWs in hard driving.
I completely agree with this assessment. I have a 535 ix sports automatic transmission and I can adjust between normal, sport and sport plus. It doesn’t have ars like dhp but it does tighten the steering and suspension. Its like a having a car with multiple personalities. I feel that people are mistaking easier steering and smoother driving at slow speeds as feeling disconnected but its quite the opposite. I think its a amazing that the car can go from luxury comfort to a sports sedan that feels like its on rails. Some suggest that the E60 was superior in steering and handling but I can assure you after almost a month with my F10, its not the case. People tend to criticize something new that they are not used to but I think in time most will learn to appreciate the subtleties that make this a great car.
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  #19  
Old 12-01-2010, 08:04 PM
SANguru SANguru is offline
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I find all this talk about steering feel etc to be pretty comical. Steering "feel" has nothing to do with handling limits of the car. For those who are complaining have you taken the 535i or 550i to the limit and gotten in trouble because you are about to break traction and the car didn't communicate that to you? If not, how are you defining "numb" steering? Are you judging it by how "tight" the steering wheel feel? The 550i I test drove was not bad at all and I've owned and driven some cars that have very good steering.
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  #20  
Old 12-01-2010, 08:25 PM
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gregb10 gregb10 is offline
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Originally Posted by SANguru View Post
I find all this talk about steering feel etc to be pretty comical. 1st of all steering "feel" has nothing to do with handling limits of the car. For those who are complaining have you taken the 535i or 550i to the limit and gotten in trouble because you are about to break traction and the car didn't communicate that to you? If not, how are you defining "numb" steering? Are you judging it by how "tight" the steering wheel feel? The 550i I test drove was not bad at all and I've owned and driven some cars that have very good steering.
I agree, how many people on this forum get a chance to take their car to the limit? Turn off the traction control and take the car to the limit, I promise it will communicate that the car is about to break traction to any driver. Its change people dont like. They fear it, dont understand it, and put it down.
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  #21  
Old 12-01-2010, 09:08 PM
Rafa Rafa is offline
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While I have never taken the F10 or the E60 to the limit, driving the F10 fairly aggressively over the same roads traveled with the E60 indicates to me that the F10 is a more capable car. The F10 just feels more composed taking an on ramp that I particularly like at the same or slightly higher speed than I did in the E60.

I also drove an F10 535i with the standard setup (no sport anything) at BMW's Ultimate Driving Event, and I drove it hard. With tires screeching, the car took turns, braking and acceleration in stride. During the hot laps, the instructors went faster that the participants could, and the 535 breezed through the course with ease, dynamic stability control off. The F10 was bred on the Ring; BMW says that the F10 outperforms it's predecessor, and I do not doubt it.
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Last edited by Rafa; 12-01-2010 at 09:10 PM.
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  #22  
Old 12-03-2010, 03:57 AM
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K-A K-A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kocsis View Post
My point was that there is an interesting convergence between cars, American cars are starting to drive more like European cars and European spotrts sedans are starting to move in the direction of softness. BMW's shift from the "ultimate driving machine" slogan to "Joy" is not accidental. Nonetheless, there is of course no comparison. The 550ix is a great car and I enjoy driving it.

true about the current Porsche 911. However, I actually think that Porsche has maintained the gap between its enthusiast feel and the American muscle cars. I have driven a number of Mustangs and I think they are terrible. Worse, for what they pretend to be, than the Buick which is pretty true to its mission....
Has BMW actually dropped "The Ultimate Driving Machine"?? That would be horrendous. This lame "Joy" schtick is very weak, and will get old fast.

BMW dropping "T.U.D.M" reminds me of when M-B dropped "Engineered Like No Other Car In The World". We all know what happened directly after that, for about a decade or so too long.
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  #23  
Old 12-03-2010, 04:11 AM
ihumphrey ihumphrey is offline
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Has BMW actually dropped "The Ultimate Driving Machine"?? That would be horrendous. This lame "Joy" schtick is very weak, and will get old fast.

BMW dropping "T.U.D.M" reminds me of when M-B dropped "Engineered Like No Other Car In The World". We all know what happened directly after that, for about a decade or so too long.
They haven't dropped the ultimate driving machine, but they are putting less emphasis on that ad phrase. However, what people apparently don't pay attention to is that the Joy campaign was to bring US advertising in line with the same terminology used in Europe. They have used a similar minded/worded campaign there and have employed that here in the USA. BMW NA claims it to be a "complement" to the TUDM phraseology...
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  #24  
Old 12-03-2010, 04:24 AM
kocsis kocsis is offline
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Nah, they dropped emphasis on quality (like MB) in favor of "customer experience." since ads are a kind of external mission statement, we know this will impact corporate culture, as it did at MB when the engineer-focus was abandoned. Maybe the focus on driving will be adopted by another auto company.....though this world is moving away from intrinsic quality and toward user experience, much of it virtual.
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  #25  
Old 12-03-2010, 07:38 AM
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markl53 markl53 is offline
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Nah, they dropped emphasis on quality (like MB) in favor of "customer experience." since ads are a kind of external mission statement, we know this will impact corporate culture, as it did at MB when the engineer-focus was abandoned. Maybe the focus on driving will be adopted by another auto company.....though this world is moving away from intrinsic quality and toward user experience, much of it virtual.
So you think there is less quality evident in your F10 as compared to previous BMW's you have owned? I disagree, the quality is ratcheted up, IMO, as far as materials, finishing, drive, you name it. Even if it is true that they may be focusing ads on another aspect, I don't think that has a direct relationship to a quality change, especially one in a negative direction. In today's world, that would actually be suicide in the markektplace.
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