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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #26  
Old 12-03-2010, 08:04 AM
kocsis kocsis is offline
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It's a different kind of quality. I suspect that today's car is not going to last as long and is not bult to the same robust standards as the E39, just as today's Porsche 911s or MBs are not expected to be as long lasting as the prior "classics." The earlier generation cars may not feel as luxurious, or have so many optional suspension settings, but they were engineered to be fundamentally great cars. Now, some of those same objectives, such as suspension, are achieved through the use of electronics, which in my mind is a bit of an artificial solution. Driveability is "built on", not "built in."
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  #27  
Old 12-03-2010, 09:10 AM
richschneid richschneid is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kocsis View Post
It's a different kind of quality. I suspect that today's car is not going to last as long and is not bult to the same robust standards as the E39, just as today's Porsche 911s or MBs are not expected to be as long lasting as the prior "classics." The earlier generation cars may not feel as luxurious, or have so many optional suspension settings, but they were engineered to be fundamentally great cars. Now, some of those same objectives, such as suspension, are achieved through the use of electronics, which in my mind is a bit of an artificial solution. Driveability is "built on", not "built in."
Interesting speculation. But simply that, speculation. No hard data to support this conclusion. Check out the actual repair statistics for BMW over the past eight years in Consumer Reports. My personal experience with owning five consecutive 8 cylinder BMWs since 1992 is that the construction of each generation has been more "robust" and reliable than the previous one. The electronics have certainly improved over the years for BMWs. I have no reason to suspect the F10 will be any different, and certainly no hard data to support this. So, that's "pure speculation" on my part as well.
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  #28  
Old 12-03-2010, 11:18 AM
Rafa Rafa is offline
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Nowadays we have better metal alloys, better glass with UV protection, better paints and coatings, etc. etc. One would think that cars would last longer when properly cared for, no?
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  #29  
Old 12-03-2010, 11:27 AM
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raleedy raleedy is offline
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Nowadays we have better metal alloys, better glass with UV protection, better paints and coatings, etc. etc. One would think that cars would last longer when properly cared for, no?
I think the real issue is the longevity of expensive and vital electronic components. It remains to be seen how it'll go with them. The best indicator so far is how things are going with the E39, which stopped production six or seven years ago and of which there are a good many examples around. A look at the boards should give a pretty good idea of how they're holding up. I know there are vulnerable spots, such as the camshaft position sensors and O2 sensors.
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  #30  
Old 12-03-2010, 11:37 AM
Rafa Rafa is offline
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Originally Posted by raleedy View Post
I think the real issue is the longevity of expensive and vital electronic components. It remains to be seen how it'll go with them. The best indicator so far is how things are going with the E39, which stopped production six or seven years ago and of which there are a good many examples around. A look at the boards should give a pretty good idea of how they're holding up. I know there are vulnerable spots, such as the camshaft position sensors and O2 sensors.
I think sensors are items that need to be replaced under maintenance, no? Just like brake pads, they would need to be replaced after their useful life. So, with proper maintenance the vehicle would not necessarily have durability issues, unless a faulty sensor creates a problem that is more serious, on parts like the cam shaft. Regarding the cost of maintenance, well, that's another matter entirely. However, today we buy much more car for the money (in adjusted dollars) in spite of all the electronics and complexity. So it may hold true that maintenance costs and the costs of replacing parts may not be higher than in earlier cars. Of course, I am just speculating as we do not have any thorough analysis to rely on.
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  #31  
Old 12-03-2010, 11:43 AM
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raleedy raleedy is offline
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I think sensors are items that need to be replaced under maintenance, no? .
You may be right about this, but my understanding is that sensors at least some of them are not subject to wear. Brake wear sensors obviously are. But camshaft position sensors and speed sensors (that the ABS and stability systems depend on) are basically just magnets. It isn't clear to me why they fail, but they do.
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  #32  
Old 12-03-2010, 05:11 PM
richschneid richschneid is online now
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Maybe certain parts fail but are they very expensive to replace? I friend of mine has a 2002 540i sport he bought 18 months ago with around 70,000 miles. He now has 101,000 miles. He has ABSOLUTELY ZERO repairs, only normal maintainence.

All this speculation with no data whatsoever is just that, pure speculation. Electronics are just microprocessors and senors, they just are not that expensive. Depreciation of $10,000 a year in the first few years of ownership of a new BMW is what IS expensive and is hard data.
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  #33  
Old 12-03-2010, 05:45 PM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Originally Posted by raleedy View Post
You may be right about this, but my understanding is that sensors at least some of them are not subject to wear. Brake wear sensors obviously are. But camshaft position sensors and speed sensors (that the ABS and stability systems depend on) are basically just magnets. It isn't clear to me why they fail, but they do.
This is incorrect. They most certainly have a service life.
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  #34  
Old 12-03-2010, 09:30 PM
baloo588 baloo588 is offline
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To kocis

I have 140k miles on my 2006 Audi A8L and its much more reliable and robust than older Audis which I never ever owned due to poor dependability. This Audi is a bank vault and has not had any problems other than small warranty repairs. Also, my 2008 ML350 has ranked 80k miles on it and it still good as new. So don't tell us that newer cars are not as built as the older ones. They are much much superior than those older german cars with all those glitches, engine, oil, transmission problems. Unless you have better objective data to show that older ones are better, they will be hard to come by to prove your point.

Last edited by baloo588; 12-03-2010 at 09:31 PM.
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  #35  
Old 12-04-2010, 08:41 AM
kocsis kocsis is offline
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We'll all see....My long-term BMW head mechanic said the E60 M5 was much more trouble than the E39 M5 because of added complexity; same for my Porsche mechanic regarding the 993 vs 997. They both said (and one of them also teaches auto mechanics, and is considered a very knowledgeable guy) that the current trend is to replace elegant engineering with electronic solutions, which over time have a tendency to break down. Nonetheless, I am driving the new 997 and 550ix and so far am very satisfied.

I did have a horrific experience with the old Audi 5000, and know that the new Audis are much more reliable.
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  #36  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:07 PM
x5 '08 x5 '08 is offline
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So kocsis, any buyers remorse?
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  #37  
Old 12-05-2010, 06:15 AM
kocsis kocsis is offline
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None. Love the car. It's a different experience but a great one.
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