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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #26  
Old 12-11-2009, 09:18 PM
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WOW!
Awesome info!
I would suggest replacing the fuel filter too (every 20-30k miles).

I use Amsoil gas PI. (performance improver)...
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/api.aspx
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  #27  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:29 AM
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I am very fortunate to have used Top tier fuel in all my BMWs. I recently had the yellow check engine light, read OBD2 code as MAF problem. I pulled the MAF per helpful members on the board AND cleaned it using CRC MAF cleaner from Autozone. I then ALSO added Fuel based injector cleaner and the yellow light has been gone without reoccurance for 1500+ miles (now at 103, 600 miles).

Thank you all for the great thread/discussion.
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  #28  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:30 AM
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its snake oil!
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  #29  
Old 02-07-2010, 11:00 AM
sddale sddale is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyffer View Post
its snake oil!
I thought that till it fixed my misfire. My only regret was not trying Techron first. I moved plugs, coils, boots, injectors and even had a compression test which was all good. Tried a bottle of Techron and it cleared it up within a tank of gas.
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  #30  
Old 02-07-2010, 08:44 PM
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I'm not against spending a few bucks to see if it makes a difference in my car. If the manufacture made all kinds of miracle claims but was trying to sell the stuff for say $50 for a 20oz bottle then I would say yes, snake oil. If I can't afford to spend $10 to $15 on my BMW for trying something that is supposed to be good for it and it doesn't make a difference then I shouldn't be driving a BMW. I don't like to throw money away needlessly but I don't mind wasting $15 on an experiment if the stuff doesn't do a thing.
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  #31  
Old 02-10-2010, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TemporarySanity View Post
I'm not against spending a few bucks to see if it makes a difference in my car.
If we can convince this guy to test out the Techron soap-for-gas for his fuel gauge, we might get another decent datapoint.
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  #32  
Old 02-10-2010, 06:52 PM
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i'm going to buy some of this snake oil, and see how it works, i'll probly buy to of them.
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  #33  
Old 12-24-2010, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by lild View Post
i'm going to buy some of this snake oil, and see how it works
Interestingly, this recent thread says it works so well, the guy could feel the acceleration boost nearly immediately.
- Added BMW Fuel Treatment: car feels better

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  #34  
Old 12-24-2010, 08:08 AM
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^I've had many engines apart but have yet to see injectors as dirty as those! I doubt a difference could be felt "immediately". It would take at least a tank of treated fuel before any definite results and would happen slow enough that the driver may not even notice.
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  #35  
Old 12-24-2010, 08:43 AM
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Truely speaking, the money spent on Techron can be used to have the injectors professionally cleaned.
Removing the injectors in an E39 is relatively easy, send them for cleaning and re-install them.
The downside is the car is down for a week.

Merry Christmas folks!
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  #36  
Old 12-24-2010, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TemporarySanity View Post
have yet to see injectors as dirty as those!
I've never seen an injector before so I didn't realize that this one was especially dirty. I found that picture on the net merely from a google of BMW E39 dirty fuel injectors (although I just searched again and found different pictures).

Here's a BMW 318i fuel injector which seems dirty. But can you edify me.

Since an injector is merely a "jet", otherwise known as a "hole", it would seem, to me, the only thing that matters is the hole. Does all that other crud on the "bottom" of the injector matter?

What is the correct mechanical "cleaning" process for an injector - can we do it at home? (I'm assuming pouring expensive snake oil into the fuel tank isn't a viable procedure when I ask that question.)

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Last edited by bluebee; 12-24-2010 at 02:42 PM.
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  #37  
Old 12-24-2010, 03:41 PM
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Deposits can build up and disrupt the atomization of the fuel spray which in turn causes an uneven or incomplete burn.
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  #38  
Old 12-24-2010, 04:22 PM
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Dirty injectors will inject varing amounts of fuel. Having them cleaned also includes a step were the injectors are matched in injected volume and spray pattern.
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  #39  
Old 12-24-2010, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franka View Post
injectors are matched in injected volume and spray pattern.
< showing my ignorance >
Are the injector jets adjustable?
< / showing my ignorance >
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  #40  
Old 12-24-2010, 06:54 PM
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No
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  #41  
Old 12-24-2010, 07:04 PM
franka franka is offline
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Here is a full time shop that does cleaning and matching. I picked this one at random off of Google. Click thru it and become educated.

http://www.witchhunter.com/process2.php4

There is a good shop in Oklahoma but the name escapes me now. These folks look very good too. Click in their side column beginning with 'Home'.
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Last edited by franka; 12-24-2010 at 07:07 PM.
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  #42  
Old 12-24-2010, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franka View Post
shop that does cleaning and matching
Hi Frank,
Excellent information. After reading the site, I agree - there is no "adjusting" whatsoever.

A lot of cleaning goes on (with the replacing of three components, namely filters, o-rings, & pintle caps).

Here's specifically what that shop does (in this order):
- The injectors are first visually inspected
- Then checked for coil winding shorts or opens
- A number is engraved on each injector
- The exterior is cleaned using filtered mineral spirits
- Metal body top feed injectors have the exterior bead blasted
- The coil winding resistance is measured
- A scope is used to observe the coil current waveform
- They are then leak tested at 10 psi, 40 psi, and 100 psi
- The spray patterns are checked
- Flows are measured by static (wide open) tests
- Flows are measured by dynamic (pulsed) tests
- They are disassembled by removing the pintle cap, o-rings, filters, and spacers
- These newly exposed areas are cleaned in the parts washer
- The bottom and the exterior of the injectors are cleaned ultrasonically
- In the ultrasonic tank they are cleaned with leads connected to pulse them on and off during this operation
- They will go through one or more cleaning cycles depending on the results of the first flow test
- The injectors are then moved to a third ultrasonic cleaning tank
- In this third tank the cleaning fluid is kept extremely clean and the pulsed cleaning continues
- A high pressure back-flush is now performed to remove any remaining particles
- A second round of both static and dynamic flow testing is done
- If any do not flow as expected, they will be cleaned again in the tank and retested
- Any remaining replaceable parts, such as spacers and filters are now installed
- The cleaned injectors are placed in numbered plastic bags
- An Excel spreadsheet is prepared showing both the before and after flow data (see sample test report below)
- Everything is carefully packed and shipped back to the owner

DETAILS:
- The test temperatures are controlled
- Most tests are performed at 43.5 psi (3 bar), the standard for injectors
- TBI and CIS are tested at a different pressure
- Room temperature coil resistance readings should be within 10% of each other
- The injectors are checked for leaks at 10, 40, and 100 psi (3x before cleaning and 3x after cleaning)
- A visual check of how the injector atomizes the fluid while it's operated
- The injector is held open for and the static flow volume is measured
- The injector is pulsed on and off to simulate normal operation (this tests the internal spring condition as well as how clean they are)
- The absolute value is not important, the thing to look for here, is how close they are to one another <--- this appears to be the "matching"

After having read that excellent description of the fuel-injector cleaning & test procedure, I don't see any purposeful "matching" going on but I do see that the results, if within 5%, especially on the pulsed-flow tests, would indicate back to the customer how well (or poorly) matched the original fuel injectors are.

Merry Christmas!
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Last edited by bluebee; 12-25-2010 at 09:44 AM.
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  #43  
Old 12-24-2010, 11:34 PM
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Apparently it costs $19/injector to be cleaned & "matched".

Reading further about injectors in that excellent site, their FAQ questions with answers on "flow matching" and "rebuilding" is interesting:
What is Flow Matching?

It's one of those terms that get used probably too often. Flow matching is when we take a large number of injectors that are tested and then grouped with others that have the same flow characteristics. They can be characterized for high RPM flow only or best all-around flow. WitchHunter Performance can test injectors to better than 1% and be repeatable.

Does WitchHunter Performance "rebuild" fuel injectors?

Nobody actually rebuilds gasoline injectors, since they are a sealed unit and can't be totally disassembled. What we do is inspect, test, ultrasonically clean and replace any serviceable parts, (such as filters, o-rings, & pintle caps). Some companies call this rebuilding, or even remanufacturing and charge over 5 times our price. We replace all the parts that can be replaced. The truth is, you are getting the same thing. Beware of places that claim to "Rebuild" gasoline injectors.


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Last edited by bluebee; 12-25-2010 at 09:45 AM.
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  #44  
Old 12-25-2010, 06:20 AM
franka franka is offline
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I'm gald to see someone is reading the details. Thanks Bluebee for posting those details for those that resist clicking on links.

For those that still don't get MATCHING from the description. (It can escape you if you do not already know what matching is.) Injectors are not adjustable. The company has many injectors in stock or on hand and will switch them out from that group until they find a complete MATCHING flow rate for your 6 or 8 injectors.

So you will get like new, maybe better matched than new, injectors back. Some may not be the same ones that you sent in.
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  #45  
Old 12-25-2010, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franka View Post
Some may not be the same ones that you sent in.
Hi Frank,
I did read the entire web site but I was still confused a little about matching - only because I wasn't sure if you got ONLY your own injectors back - or if they substituted similarly matched injectors when the need arises.

It was confusing because the FAQ expressly says they don't do "exchanges" but matching wouldn't be possible without substituting one injector for another.

Here's what their FAQ says, verbatim, on exchanges:
Why doesn't WitchHunter Performance offer an injector exchange service?

We only clean our customers injectors, that way you know what you are getting. Some companies buy old used injectors by the truckload, use minimum wage labor to clean the injectors that work and throw the rest away. So you may be getting one with 30K miles and some with 400K on them in the same set. It is common practice for these places to grind off the original part number and give you an injector that flows "close" to your injector.



So, what I gather from this is the following assumption:

- You give them YOUR injectors
- So does another customer, and another, and another
- They clean and test YOUR injectors (and that of the other customers)
- If any of yours need to be "replaced"; they take them from the other customers' injectors

I guess what they do not do is buy injectors in bulk and use them for the matching - but apparently they do use other customers' injectors to substitute when the need for matching arises.

Do I have the basics of "matching" understood yet?


Last edited by bluebee; 12-25-2010 at 09:54 AM.
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  #46  
Old 12-25-2010, 10:14 AM
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BTW, one thing that came to me loudly and clearly after reading the Witchhunter site was that cleaning a fuel injector is a lot more than just dumping a can of snake oil into the fuel tank every 3,000 miles!

The site says that "effective" cleaning can not be done while on the car, which I would tend to believe.

I guess the argument for Techron is otherwise, but, at $19 an injector for a "real" cleaning, I wonder if the 4 cans of Techron per year is a better deal or not.

How much is a can of Techron anyway?
- where to buy chevron techron for good price

If I average the Costco & PepBoys figures for the best price of Techron concentrate and add the 10% California tax, we can estimate the cost at between twenty cents and about twenty-eight cents per ounce at the best prices quoted in that thread (which others said were great prices).

Assuming a quarter an ounce, and from dvsgene (see above), the fill ratio is about 1 oz of Techron concentrate to one gallon of gasoline, so that's 18 ounces per fillup - or about 18 quarters = about $4.50 per tank.

Assuming 3,000 miles per use of Techron, that's four or five tanks a year at 12K to 15K miles per year, so, that's about $20 to $25 per year, which is almost exactly what it costs to have one fuel injector cleaned and "matched".

So, after six years of using Techron by the book, it would seem that I paid enough for Techron as it would have cost to have my six injectors professionally cleaned and "matched" (with Excel spreadsheeted proof).

Given that, I wonder which is the better deal:
- Put Techron in the fuel tank four times a year & hope for the best
- Every six years, send the injectors out for a professional cleaning

What would you think is the better way to go?

Last edited by bluebee; 12-25-2010 at 10:17 AM.
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  #47  
Old 12-25-2010, 04:59 PM
franka franka is offline
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First read the paragraph below on your link about injector matching. Your conclusions are correct.

Second, I would do both, clean and match and every 6 mos or so use the gas additive.
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  #48  
Old 12-27-2010, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by franka View Post
I would do both, clean and match and every 6 mos or so use the gas additive.
I wonder. I really do.

It's like washing your hair. Sure, there's nothing wrong with washing it twice a day, every day, and then once a month having it done at the salon ... but it sure gets expensive.

I would love to see a scientific study (not from the makers of fuel-injector cleaner) that proves whether it's snake oil or not in a normal vehicle.

Then, I'd like to see a comparison of results of quarterly snake oil versus injector cleaning every six years or so.

That would be of interest to me!
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  #49  
Old 12-28-2010, 05:47 AM
franka franka is offline
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[QUOTE=bluebee;5725724]

It's like washing your hair. Sure, there's nothing wrong with washing it twice a day, every day, and then once a month having it done at the salon ... but it sure gets expensive.QUOTE]


You read me wrong or I wrote it insufficiently clear. I would do matching once in 5-10 years then additive maybe every 6 mos at most. Not both every 6 mos.

I have never done injector cleaning, matching and have used an additive 2 times in over 200k miles. You have to air out the engine often as I have stated in numerous threads.
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  #50  
Old 12-28-2010, 11:20 AM
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That witchhunter procedure looks pretty sweet. Has anyone posted a DIY on removing then reinstalling the injectors?
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