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7 Series - E38 (1995 - 2001)

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  #1  
Old 12-24-2010, 06:52 AM
amattaa amattaa is offline
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Angry 99 740iL - SES major issue

Hello everyone! Here is my problem:
1999 740iL - SES light came on. Stopped and read code P0011 with a generic ODBII code reader (camshaft, over-advanced timing). Drove about 50 miles with radio on. When I arrived home and opened the windows, there was a very, very loud ticking noise (metal on metal). Stopped engine, did not start it since. The car has 144,000 Miles and I owned it for almost 4 years without major issues (replaced water pump and belts 2 years ago). When I read the codes with the Peake code reader, I got the following codes (table 0F): 21, 7D, 8C, D4 and D2.
Based on what I read on the forum regarding the possible issues, I definitely will not go to the dealer, so I would appreciate very much any advice on how to diagnose the problem first, and sure, any help on how to fix it. I am off for the next few days, so I have time to check/work on the car, with your help.
Merry Christmas to all!
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  #2  
Old 12-24-2010, 09:41 AM
Gino215 Gino215 is offline
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The code PO011 is cam position sensor Bank 1 ( bank 1 is driver side) you may need to replace the sensor, if you need more assistance PM me, we have used parts too let me know if you need anything.
Good luck with your repairs. and Happy Holidays!
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  #3  
Old 12-24-2010, 01:31 PM
amattaa amattaa is offline
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Thank you Gino! It sounded like the timing chain was slapping around (broken guides?). Would it be worthwhile to try to replace the camshaft sensor before digging in deeper? I am afraid that if is not just the sensor and if I start it up before looking at the guides, the chain may break and get into more trouble.....
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  #4  
Old 12-25-2010, 02:19 PM
amattaa amattaa is offline
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Angry Anybody else?

The car sat for about 3 weeks, so I don't know if this observation is significant... I pulled the driver side valve cover and it seems that the chain and the entire area is pretty dry. Attached are some pictures. Hopefully somebody can "read" something. There doesn't seem to be much play in the chain (at least on this side). However, based on the marks, there may be excessive lateral play.Click image for larger version

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  #5  
Old 12-27-2010, 01:11 PM
balance balance is offline
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Was the Oil light on? If the motor lost oil pressure, you would definatly get a knock, and since the camshaft on cars with variable valve timing works off of oil pressure, this could be an issue. I've heard of the oil pump bolts working themselves loose on these cars, so that is something to check for as well. I've also heard of the plastic on the chain guides breaking up and causing the chain to flop around, so that would be something else to check on.

You could try dropping the lower oil pan (which the oil drain plug is attached to) and see if any plastic shards come out, and while you are there, check to see if the oil pump bolts are nice and tight. Before doing this, you could try to start the car with the oil filter cover removed to see if there is oil pumping through the motor, but that could get messy if you don't shut it off quickly.

Just from what you are saying though, I'm thinking it's the timing chain guides.
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  #6  
Old 12-28-2010, 06:36 AM
amattaa amattaa is offline
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There were no other lights on beside the SES. Also, the water temperature was normal.
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  #7  
Old 12-28-2010, 10:53 AM
balance balance is offline
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If I were in your situation, I would pull the lower oil pan and check to see if I saw anything out of the ordinay, such as plastic shards or a loose oil pump.
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  #8  
Old 12-28-2010, 12:35 PM
amattaa amattaa is offline
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You were right on. Unfortunately I think is no need. I just found a 2 in piece of plastic from the rail guard in the right hand chain area (below the top chain). The question remains: why did it break and if it is worth to spend money on this engine.
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  #9  
Old 12-28-2010, 04:24 PM
Mark@EAC Mark@EAC is offline
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common problem on the M62TU unfortunately, I talk to a couple people a week on this.

It's an in depth DIY but if you are game for it we can help.

overhaul parts list:
http://content.eactuning.com/index.p...ists&Itemid=57

timing tool rental. call for availability and to get on the rental list.
https://eactuning.com/bmw-m62-m62tu-...ols-p-631.html

It should go without saying that you should not run that engine until this is addressed.

Last edited by Mark@EAC; 12-28-2010 at 04:25 PM.
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  #10  
Old 12-28-2010, 05:16 PM
balance balance is offline
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I agree with Mark in that you should not start that motor again until you get the problem fixed. If the chain jumped a couple teeth on the camshaft, you could bend a valve causing an even bigger repair where you have to remove the heads to replace it.

Was the motor shaking or running rough when you got home and the noise started? I would take out all of the spark plugs, put a wrench on the crank pulley bolt, and turn the motor over to see if you feel any resistance after turning it a few revolutions. If it feels like a piston is hitting a valve while you are turning the crank, the amount of parts and labor just went up.

It is up to you if you want to fix this motor or buy used. It is a very time consuming job and you should not try it yourself unless you have a back-up plan where you can get the car towed to someone who knows what they are doing if you get stuck. I would not recommend a "beginner" (no offense) do a timing chain job on a DOHC motor without someone who knows what they are doing next to them. But with the right information, patience, and time, it is definatly not impossible.
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  #11  
Old 12-28-2010, 06:03 PM
amattaa amattaa is offline
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Thank you to all of you for taking the time to help me out. I am fairly comfortable of removing the valve covers (one already done), the RH and LH timing chain covers. Things get more complicated when I think about the lower timing chain cover and adjusting the timing.
I would appreciate if I could get some answers to the following questions:
1. What caused the timing to go off? Was it caused by the breaking of the chain guide(s), or something else caused first the breakage of the guide(s)? Could it have been a tensioner, the solenoid valve of the camshaft adjusting unit, or something else?
2. Is there a way to check the components that can cause this issue?
3. What else should I look at, or replace, if I ever get there?
4. What else can go wrong on this engine (143,000 MI) if this issue is fixed?

Thank you again to all of you.
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  #12  
Old 12-29-2010, 07:24 AM
balance balance is offline
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Plastic chain guides normally go bad on the motors that use them. The metal chain rubs on the plastic guides as fast as the motor is spinning with as much force as the chain tensioners put on them, and over time, the plastic wears away until it becomes so thin and brittle from the heat, that it breaks into pieces. I've heard that Ford 4.6L motors which use plastic guides, have the same issues at about 200k miles. I think the life of them can be extended by using a thicker oil, but I have no proof of this.

1. When the guides break, the chain if free to flop around because the tensioner no longer puts enough tension on the chain to keep it in the correct position, and without tension, the timing will be off. This can be a problem on an interference engine since incorrect timing can put the valves in the combustion chamber at the same time that the piston is on its way up.

2. I don't think you can check most of the components in that area unless you take out the timing cover and take a look. But if you are going to be changing the guides, I'd reccomend changing the tensioners as well.

3. I haven't gone this deep in my motor, but I would replace the chain tensioners and guides, all of the gaskets that needed to be removed should be replaced, there is a tube coming from the OSV that connects to a PCV valve and the valve should be replaced, and do an oil change AFTER the job is finished, but BEFORE you start the car (this is important). Also, your motor has variable valve timing while mine does not, so I'm not sure what extra items you will run into or may want to replace while you are down there.

4. I would think that after this job is finished, nothing much. But I think that before you get any further with this job, you should take out all of the spark plugs and turn the crank over a few times to see if you run into any metal-to-metal resistance such as bent valves. You said that the car was making a very loud knocking noise when you got home, and if the motor was running rough, you could have very easily bent a valve when the timing went off. If the valves are bent, you will need to take off the heads, lifters, and camshafts, and replace the head gaskets and valves as well, which would make this already big job, that much bigger.
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  #13  
Old 12-30-2010, 01:51 PM
amattaa amattaa is offline
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Thank you "balance"!
I don't think that there are bent valves, but not 100% sure. The noise was high pitch and the engine was running smooth. This is why I didn't feel anything while driving, I guess. However, I will check for the valves, as you suggested.
I have replaced the PCV valve last year (smoke for a few seconds at start-up). I bought the tube too, but never replaced it. I still get some smoke at start-up during cold weather.
I dusted off my old Mercedes 190E and will use it for a while (... and some times my wife's Z3). We'll read more about my issue and when it gets warmer, will try to fix it (nothing to loose....).
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  #14  
Old 01-02-2011, 05:34 AM
Mark740iL Mark740iL is offline
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I just changed my timing chain guides on my '01 M62TU

It is not a job for a rookie! It can be challenging and frustrating. However, if you REALLY understand the functioning of the engine, it will help considerably.

I am in the process of documenting what I did, and might be able to assist with some of your questions.
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  #15  
Old 01-02-2011, 06:52 AM
amattaa amattaa is offline
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Mark,
I am a rookie regarding a job this big on the 740iL. However, I am not somebody who just saw a wrench for the first time.... I do all the maintenance on our cars (Mercedes 190E, Z3 and 740iL. True, the biggest job I did was replacing a bent valve on my daughter's Honda Civic. My problem, for sure not the only one, is that I work 12-13 hours, 6 days a week... I know one thing: I will not pay $5,000 to have the rail guides changed (this is what they are asking for in Birmingham, AL). So, I would appreciate every help I can get down the road. I will gather all the information I can get, and when I will feel comfortable, I will try to do the job myself.
Thank you for your time and your generous offer to help me.
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  #16  
Old 01-02-2011, 09:47 AM
Mark740iL Mark740iL is offline
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It is challenging, but certainly worth the $4k savings!!

How soon do you plan on doing this? Do you have a full complement of tools? Is the car in a garage?

Having a 'third' car is certainly beneficial. I was in a rental the whole time I was doing mine.

As for the "special tools", it can be done without them! (that might sound ludicrous, but having done it, my DIY notes will show you how!)

I just finished mine this past week, so today is the day for cleaning up the tools, the garage, and maybe getting some work done on the DIY. Sadly, it is something that ALL M62TU engines will experience somewhere between 100k and 200k miles.

Also, the timing chain guides don't WEAR out. They FAIL / BREAK due to being brittle! The broken pieces of mine (the plastic on the V-guide failed on mine) show essentially NO wear, just 'burnishing / polishing' where the chain ran on the guides. My guess is that the age and heat of the engines prematurely ages the plastic, and it fails.
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  #17  
Old 01-02-2011, 12:14 PM
amattaa amattaa is offline
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Hello Mark740iL,

Thank you for your continuous support. Yes, the car is in a garage and I have lots of tools. However, most likely I will need some more (i.e. the 19mm deep socket for the tensioner...). Unfortunately I will work only a few hours on Sundays, so I am looking to complete the work in a few weeks (really no idea at this time on how long it will take...). The first snag I hit are the "wire boxes" on the top of the engine. Also, I thought I should do the valley pan too.
Based on the TIS, I should be able to remove the two upper timing chain covers. When it comes to the lower one, no solution at this time.
I don't want to be nosy, but I would appreciate if you could tell me if you did any other work beside the chain guides. Just curious.... Did the car start right away? Does it run right?
By the way, from what I read, this engine should be a M62TU. When I enter the last 7 digits in TIS, it shows a M62 engine. Can you tell me why?
Thank you!
amattaa@comcast.net
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  #18  
Old 01-02-2011, 03:11 PM
Mark740iL Mark740iL is offline
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What I did....

My '01 E38 / M62TU (Technical Update) has 121,600 miles. The V-guide plastic broke, so I replaced it, and both tensioner pieces, along with:
valley pan cover and gasket
intake manifold gaskets
front and rear manifold gaskets
upper and lower timing cover gaskets
exhaust gas cross-over pipe o-rings
water pump to rear manifold o-rings
lower pan gasket
head cover/valve cover gaskets and bolt / nut seals
OSV
timing chain (although it didn't need it)
VANOS solenoid seals
and the "voltage regulator" on top of the oil cooler. (don't know why its named that! there are no wires to it!)

As for the injector connectors, these just 'pull' off. Get some WD-40 or PBR or similar, and squirt each one, and let it soak a bit. Loosen / remove the 4 nuts, and remove a couple accessory brackets. (put the nuts back on the studs!)Grip the box at each end, and give it a quick jerk, and voila, there it is! The connectors are designed to snap-on / snap-off the injectors. If you look at the connector, the metal clip is really just a spring retainer. Now look at the injector and you will understand how it works. They also just snap on when ready to install. Leave the fuel rail and injectors intact. Fuel connector is back near the e-box, push flexible hose towards the steel supply line, and then depress the plastic ring / connector; it should pop right off. Wear safety glasses.

The biggest challenge will be getting the crank bolt out!. Torque spec is 540 ft lbs. I believe. RIDICULOUSLY tight. I had a 4' cheater on my 1/2" breaker bar and it was still a bear. You need to remove it to remove the harmonic balancer, then the lower timing cover.

TAKE PLENTY OF PICTURES! I assume that your memory is better than mine, but it was invaluable to me, when reassembling, especially several days later.

I printed and followed the 22 page TIS instructions. When I got mine back together, it would not start!! Checked everything....fuel pressure, fuses, spark, etc. etc. Finally realized that I had made a mistake. (step 2 outlines how to confirm that the cams are in the proper position. In limited light, I did not see the markings, and when using a small mirror to look on the opposite side of the cam, I did not see them. The car runs fine now!!


1. move crank to TDC, as shown on the vibration damper and the front cover. When the 0 lines up with the index on the cover, you should be able to put a shot-pin (10 mm maybe?? I didn't measure it, but if that is the case, a letter C drill will work, or grind down a 1/4" dowel and put it in there. This will keep the crank in TDC for no 1. Before you put the pin in, read step 2, to make sure you have the correct rotation for the TDC. (the crank makes two revolutions for every cam revolution, so you need to make sure you got the right one.

2. when in TDC for #1 (front cylinder on the right/passenger side) all 4 cams should have markings at the back end: A 1-4 for the intake on bank 1, E1-4 for exhaust on bank 1-4, then A 5-8, E5-8 on the drivers side. IF YOU DON'T SEE THE MARKINGS, you need to turn the crank one more revolution, and align the marks again. IT IS ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL, that you have TDC on the crank, and the markings on the cams pointing up.

3. At this point, you would put the "special tools" over the end of the cams, which are machined to accept the blocks. However, you can simply use a square to align the side of the square at the back of the cam, with the top of the head.. All four cam bolts should be slightly loose, so that the cam position relative to the sprocket can be adjusted / set. Remember that the cam bolts are left hand threads. Also, the cam position sensor disks can be removed; the large nut is all that holds them on, it is also a left hand thread.

4. Make sure that the VANOS transmission, the large round drum in front of the cam sprocket, is in full CCW (left) rotation. This is the variable timing part. The intake cams are advanced (rotated clockwise) when necessary for better performance. The default position is full retard, or no advance, which is rotated CCW to a hard stop. This can be confirmed by checking the little pins to ground. If they are grounded, (continuity to any part of the engine) then you are at full retard. this is where the cam needs to be, in addition to the square on the end being square with the head, so that the chain can be installed.

5. Assuming you've gotten this far with the chain on correctly, then you need to lock the sprockets to the cams, starting with the exhaust cams. If you don't have the "special tools" make sure you hold the cam by the large hex near the middle of the cam. Reconfirm after you've tightened them, that the end square is still square with the top of the head.

6. You can now put the timing covers on. Put the cam sensor disks on the cams, but leave them loose for now. After the top timing covers are on, put a 10 mm or letter C drill through the alignment hole and into the cam sensor disk. (make sure you are still at TDC for no 1) Tighten the large nut to secure the disc.

7. As a check, just confirm the following:
a. TDC for #1
b. cams aligned properly, markings to the top, squares are square with top of head
c. 10 mm pin goes through alignment hole and into the sensor disk
d. everything is tight

8.. Put everything back together.

Hope this helps. Feel free to email me directly if there are immediate / specific questions:

Mark.Buntain@FedEx.com
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