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E36 (1991 - 1999)
The E36 chassis 3-Series BMW was a huge hit among driving enthusiasts from the first moment the car hit the pavement. The E36 won numerous awards over the years it was produced and is still a favorite of many BMW enthusiasts to this day! -- View the E36 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 12-28-2010, 11:54 PM
netdude netdude is offline
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Mein Auto: 318i
Help; failed CA smog test. High NO

It's that time of the year again... the dreaded smog test.

The last time I tested was a couple years ago and I barely passed. I'll post those numbers when I find them.

However, I went to the smog guys a couple of times this week (utilizing the free retest). No go. Here are my numbers:

1st test (drove 20 miles on freeway before taking test):
/////////// 15mph // 25mph
RPM ////// 1716 // 1698
CO (mea) 15.1 // 14.9
O2 (mea) 0.1 // 0.2
HC (max) 61 // 35
HC (mea) 26 // 19
CO (max) 0.34 // 0.47
CO (mea) 0.15 // 0.21
NO (max) 486 // 502
NO (mea) 626 // 658

2nd test (drove 7 miles on surface road at 45mph max before test, idle 5 mins):
/////////// 15mph // 25mph
RPM////// 1929 // 1781
CO (mea) 14.8 // 14.4
O2 (mea) 0.0 // 0.0
HC (max) 61 // 35
HC (mea) 3 // 1
CO (max) 0.34 // 0.47
CO (mea) 0.01 // 0.01
NO (max) 486 // 502
NO (mea) 909 // 617

I was so close on the 1st one, I thought, after filling it with new gas (always premium), I should pass. I thought way wrong. When I drove there, the car was fine. Then after idling for 5 mins and the guy drove it up to the dyno, the idle started acting a little funny and revved up and down for a sec. It's happened before, but always randomly (like this time). I've read cleaning the ICV may help this problem.

I've read up for the past couple hours on what high NO means and it seems like I"m stuck possibly looking at a new CAT. I've read differing opinions about the O2 sensor. I haven't changed my spark plugs in about 4 years (though only driven <15k miles in 4 years).

Before taking the 1st test, I did do:
1. change oil (Mobil 1 5/30)
2. clean the throttle body w/ toothbrush and TB cleaner
3. 1 bottle of Lucas fuel injector cleaner

Any thoughts on what I should do to attempt to pass smog? From what I've read on tonight, cheap things might be to change the O2 sensor (Ford goes for $35 or so) and spark plugs at $4/each or something. I'll definitely clean out the ICV this weekend. I saw the DIY and it's hopefully doable.

Some folks have mentioned checking the EGR valve. I'm not sure where it is and not sure how difficult it may be to replace.

Thanks in advance for any insights into this problem and helping me get through the dreaded smog test this year.

Cheers

Last edited by netdude; 12-28-2010 at 11:55 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2010, 12:28 AM
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IgotBMW IgotBMW is offline
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Mein Auto: 1996 Z3 1.9L M44
I dont think we have EGR valves in our bimmers. But I could be wrong.

Sounds like you need a new cat. Any rotten eggs smell coming from the exhaust? BTW, our O2 sensors can cost close to $200 and we have 4 of them. Atleast on my 97 328i.

The cheapest way is to swap cats w/another bimmer so you can pass the test.
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2010, 06:45 AM
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drivinfaster drivinfaster is offline
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first, 'NO' is 'NOx', the 'x' designates any number of O2 atoms in the molecule.

it also is an indicator of high combustion temperatures. it will hae no effect of the cat smelling like rotten eggs. (and i have stated this many times, a rotten egg smell from the cat does not mean it is bad, but rather it is working itself to death trying to reduce the HC & CO in the exhaust. if not addressed then yes, it will kill the cat, but it is working, and will continue to work until it melts down)

NOx is reduced by CO, which is a 'rich indicator', but then the Ox is removed from the N and used to further reduce the CO into CO2. (i could go on, but i don't want to bore you guys).

first things first. run a can of seafoam through the intake and clean out the carbon deposits.

check the operation of the O2 sensor, if you don't have a decent dvom (like a fluke88) then don't go out and get one (or worse, a cheapy version), just get a new one and replace it.

if you have a fan clutch, make sure it is operating properly, and that the cooling system is up to snuff.

please keep in mind that HC and CO will be at their lowest when NOx is high, so you may repair the NOx concern and wind up failing for HC and CO. there is no way to verify that at this point without retesting, so don't be too alarmed about it. just be aware it could be a possibility.

i don't believe the car has an egr in obd1, but since you are on a dyno, i am going to assume that you are 95 or older (you didn't indicate, or, if you did, i musta missed it...)
but if you DO have an egr valve, make sure the passages are clear.

i hope this helps. let us know how you make out.


df
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  #4  
Old 12-29-2010, 08:37 AM
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JoshuaG JoshuaG is offline
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Where do you people learn this stuff... =) it blows my mind sometimes, the level of knowledge here.
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2010, 10:21 AM
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hornhospital hornhospital is offline
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Mein Auto: 1995 318is / 1993 325is
Reading, schooling and 45+ years of working on my own cars. It still isn't enough some of the time. That's why I'm here.

df, good summation of NOx vs CO vs N. You can't change one without affecting the others.
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2010, 10:37 AM
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drivinfaster drivinfaster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshuaG View Post
Where do you people learn this stuff... =) it blows my mind sometimes, the level of knowledge here.
15 years of wrenching, recertified ase master tech with L1, X1, and state emission repair certification, as well as almost 2 dozen workshops i have participated in over those years. the certs have all lapsed (recert would be not difficult, though) but the principals have not changed.

Quote:
hornhospital;5728890]Reading, schooling and 45+ years of working on my own cars. It still isn't enough some of the time. That's why I'm here.
as are most of us i am sure

Quote:
df, good summation of NOx vs CO vs N. You can't change one without affecting the others.
thank you, i try to share when i can.

i want to make a post for the stickies on this sort of thing, but i am not that well versed in cutting and pasting pics and images. any 'festers near the sticks or pines that would be willing to help get this on the boards??


df
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  #7  
Old 12-29-2010, 10:10 PM
netdude netdude is offline
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Mein Auto: 318i
Thanks for the notes. The car is a 1994 318i, ODBI. And the exhaust does not smell like rotten eggs.

It has 1 O2 sensor pre-cat. The exhaust smells just like exhaust, though a bit rich these days. I pulled the CEL code and it's 1222 which could be a TON of things (as I've learned). I went for the vacuum first - I grabbed my can of TB cleaner and turned on the car. I let the car idle for a while and started spraying the TB cleaner around the intake area. On top of the intake, under it, just all around. The car's idle stayed steady, though the CEL did come on. The CEL is only on when at idle and as I understand it, that's why the 1222 code.

Anyhow, with the TB cleaner sprayed and the idle just pretty much constant, I have to believe that I don't have a vacuum leak. Thoughts?

So, I went out and picked up a new O2 sensor... 40 bucks through the "econoline" trick people have been using (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...+sensor&page=7). I also picked up 4 NGK spark plugs which someone had said were good?

I've yet to yank everything apart. I'll probably start pulling parts tomorrow. I'm still thinking:

Maybe run seafoam first?
1. clean ICV
2. Check plug cables w/ DVM (I do have a digital volt meter). Thoughts on this? I heard <2ohms?
3. change spark plugs
4. change O2 sensor

That's all I got under my sleves. Anyone with more suggestions?

Thanks
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  #8  
Old 12-29-2010, 10:30 PM
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crisscross crisscross is offline
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Mein Auto: 1995 M3 Boston Green
Code 1222 was an intake air temp sensor on my car, and that was causing a rich idle, and thus no smog for me.

I replaced, seafoamed and then passed!
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1995 BG M3(sold) 2000 TiAg 4.4l X5(sold)

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  #9  
Old 12-30-2010, 04:58 AM
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drivinfaster drivinfaster is offline
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running rich would not produce high NOx, as CO is used to reduce the NOx (oxides of nitrogen).

NOx is actually highest when the vehicle is running at its most efficient (stoichiometric ratio 14.7:1) on a properly tuned vehicle, which is why an egr system was developed to help reduce combustion temps (exhaust is inert, so it just takes up space in the combustion chamber, which reduces combustion temps)

since out cars (obd1) are not equipped with egr systems, the dme is programmed to compensate, and the cat will take care of the rest.

what i suggest is yes tot he seafoam, yes to the o2, and yes to the sparkplugs (oe is fine, you're not running a race car).

checking ignition leads with a dvom, meh, knock yourself out, but do you know what you are looking for?? if you are not misfiring, your better endeavor would be to check the fan clutch (if equipped) for proper operation, and make sure there are no restrictions in the radiator cooling fins. remember, NOx is high combustion temps.

repeat after me,

NOx is a result of high combusion temperatures, nothing else.
CO is a result of a rich running condition.
HC is a result of a misfire condition.
CO2 is an efficiency indicator (you're good here, even though you have it listed as 'CO')

since you are not that far off on spec, you may be able to just get away with an o2 and seafoam service, which is what i would do first.

and i would run about 1/2 the can through. then road blast. the rest you can put in the tank. then retest.

let us know how you make out.


df
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  #10  
Old 12-30-2010, 07:50 AM
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crisscross crisscross is offline
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Location: Best country on Earth
 
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Mein Auto: 1995 M3 Boston Green
Thanks df, I don't know much about smog things
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Member #2 of the Boston Green Mafia BMW-CCA #457574

1995 BG M3(sold) 2000 TiAg 4.4l X5(sold)

-2000 F250 V10
-2004 GMC Yukon Denali

-I do the things today that others won't do, so I will have the things tomorrow that other won't have....
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  #11  
Old 01-02-2011, 09:18 AM
netdude netdude is offline
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Location: la
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivinfaster View Post
running rich would not produce high NOx, as CO is used to reduce the NOx (oxides of nitrogen).

NOx is actually highest when the vehicle is running at its most efficient (stoichiometric ratio 14.7:1) on a properly tuned vehicle, which is why an egr system was developed to help reduce combustion temps (exhaust is inert, so it just takes up space in the combustion chamber, which reduces combustion temps)

since out cars (obd1) are not equipped with egr systems, the dme is programmed to compensate, and the cat will take care of the rest.

what i suggest is yes tot he seafoam, yes to the o2, and yes to the sparkplugs (oe is fine, you're not running a race car).

checking ignition leads with a dvom, meh, knock yourself out, but do you know what you are looking for?? if you are not misfiring, your better endeavor would be to check the fan clutch (if equipped) for proper operation, and make sure there are no restrictions in the radiator cooling fins. remember, NOx is high combustion temps.

repeat after me,

NOx is a result of high combusion temperatures, nothing else.
CO is a result of a rich running condition.
HC is a result of a misfire condition.
CO2 is an efficiency indicator (you're good here, even though you have it listed as 'CO')

since you are not that far off on spec, you may be able to just get away with an o2 and seafoam service, which is what i would do first.

and i would run about 1/2 the can through. then road blast. the rest you can put in the tank. then retest.

let us know how you make out.


df
High combustion temp. Thanks!

So here are the things I did already:

1. ICV cleaning
2. O2 sensor
3. Spark plugs (BTW, they were loose!

I didn't do seafoam as I read it may have detrimental effects on the engine valve gasket and I don't have another one handy. I would have liked to have done the seafoam, but also didn't know if it would in any way require me to do an oil change afterwards. I always use Mobil 1 and OEM filter from bavauto. I just changed the oil a few days ago (less than 200 miles) and don't have another filter on hand (aside from wasting 4 quarts of perfectly good oil).

My engine was replaced with a new one in 2003 (yeah, not the brightest idea). Since 2003, I've run synthetic oil and maybe drive 6k miles per year. I read that it probably isn't really all that dirty and the sea foam may really not do much for this case.

Please let me know what you think about the seafoam.

I've also just picked up a bottle of redline SR1 fuel injection treatment and running that through the tank right now. I should go through the tank by the end of the week. I'll refill and take the car in for smog. Should know the results by next sunday. Any thoughts on the seafoam would be great. I'd love to run it, but is it worth pulling out the O2 sensor (temporarily again) and possibly changing the oil for an engine that's probably got 40k miles on it?

Thanks! I really do appreciate the insight into emissions you've provided.
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  #12  
Old 01-02-2011, 12:31 PM
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drivinfaster drivinfaster is offline
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you may be able to get by with the things that you have done already, but i would suspect just barely. the seafoam will not harm the oil, in fact if you read the bottle it would indicate to add to the crankcase. i don't have a bottle handy right now, so i cannot say for certain if it indicated to change the oil afterwards or not.

i have also run this and other fuel additives through the intake without damaging the valve cover gasket. i have taken into consideration that there are a lot of guys who parrot things that they've heard from what the assume to be 'authoratative voices' of the subject, but i doubt that if this, or other products, were that harmful to gaskets then i would have heard about it in my time as a technician, or it would be standard operating proceedure to do an oil change right after doing a fuel injection service.

as it stands now, as long as one does a seafoam service with the engine at operating temps, and follows through with the appropriate road blasting, i highly doubt there would be any ill effects on any component of the engine/exhaust systems. and, in the odd event that something should happen, it was probably going to be happening anyway and was not caused by the service itself.

so i would go ahead and run at least 1/2 the can of seafoam through the intake before reinspecting.


df
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Old 01-06-2011, 08:28 AM
teklord69 teklord69 is offline
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I had same problem. Here is an easy fix. Buy a magnaflow cat from ebay for $165. Have someone install it for you for $50. Take smog test.. Pass!
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:00 AM
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ZeGerman ZeGerman is offline
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Simply buying a new cat is not the smartest solution to this problem.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:14 AM
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drivinfaster drivinfaster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeGerman View Post
Simply buying a new cat is not the smartest solution to this problem.
amen. if there is a problem passing emissions then the cause must be first addressed. the cat is a last one in line. it would be like sending a cabinet maker to frame out a house.

not to mention if issues are not addressed it will shorten the life of the cat by far. they don't just die, they get killed from overworking.


(now i'm really thinking about doing a post on cat operation...and emission theory...and, oh phoo....y'all git the pichur....)


df
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Old 01-06-2011, 03:56 PM
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hornhospital hornhospital is offline
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Do it, df. I'd read it. I may not understand all of it, but I'll learn from it.
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guessing gets expensive...drivinfaster
nothing is more expensive than a cheap BMW...c4harpe13
buying a ratty example (of a BMW) is a parasitic relationship.(and you ain't the mosquito) 7pilot

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BMW-CCA #441426
1995 318is "Bebe"; 1993 325is "Elvira" 1985 635CSi "Katja" 1984 633CSi "Sylvia"
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  #17  
Old 01-10-2011, 08:18 PM
netdude netdude is offline
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DONE!

I actually passed tonight! Thanks for everyone's help here. There 1 thing I need to understand - I'll ask the question at the end of this post.

Here are the things I did:

O2 sensor ($33 from amazon - used Ford Econoline O2 and spliced)
Clean ICV
Replaced Air hose from boot to ICV
Replaced thermostat
Flushed coolant from radiator, engine, and heater core
Replaced spark plugs
(already changed engine oil a few days before 1st test)

So, the final result:

3rd Test:
/////////// 15mph // 25mph
RPM////// 1942 // 1950
CO (mea) 14.9 // 14.8
O2 (mea) 0.0 // 0.0
HC (max) 61 // 35
HC (mea) 59 // 23
CO (max) 0.34 // 0.47
CO (mea) 0.20 // 0.10
NO (max) 486 // 502
NO (mea) 320 // 86

So there's still 1 thing I never got to - engine temp gauge. I know I have a problem. The temp gauge on the dash shows the car as cold when in fact, it's hot. When I've been driving around for about 15 mins, the temp will show 1/4. It goes to 1/2 after about 45 mins of driving and I come to a red light. As soon as I start driving again, the temp will drop to 1/4. When I shut off the car and start it again 20 mins later, it'll show cold for about 5 mins, then goes to 1/4.

I'm thinking it's the temp gauge. Anyone have a DIY for the temp gauge? I think I have to pull out the intake! ;( I've gotten to the ICV, but I don't know how hard it is to get the intake manifold out. If there's a DIY w/ pics, please let me know.

Anyhow, that's where the car sits today. I've also got a short somewhere. With my battery disconnected, if I were to put a multimeter between the battery's negative terminal and the ground of the car, there's a constant 2.4amps that's drawn by the car. I've pulled out all the fuses, and no luck. Still 2.4amps. It's killing me, I have no idea where the short is located. I've tried all the wires I could see, and still no luck. The only thing I'm not sure about - does the car normally pull 2.4 amps when you plug in the negative terminal for a few minutes, then drop to ~0.10amps? I've never put the multimeter between the terminal and ground for more than 30 seconds. I didn't want to short out the meter.

If you can help, I would really appreciate it. Just 2 issues left:

1. Temp gauge
2. Short in car?

Thanks again!
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:24 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Mein Auto: 02 BMW 525i M54 auto 130K
Here are some E39 datapoints on smog tests around the world:

From the VERY best of E39 Links:
- Octane emissions smog test results

--------------------------------------
- Canada (bmw_n00b13), 1999, 528iA
- Northern California (bluebee), 2002 525i, 87 AKI (just after rebuilding the ABS control module)
- Northern California (bluebee), 2002 525i, 91 AKI (after clearing P0500 code & driving for two weeks)
- Southern California (Gian), 2002 530i
- Southern California (bugratu), 1997 528i
- Southern California (bugratu), 1997 528i (after adding CRC "Guaranteed to Pass Smog Test", plugs, engine air filter)
- Southern California (+moulin), 2002 530i 5-spd 105K
- UK (dunk1127), year? 540i
--------------------------------------
HYDROCARBONS:
- at idle: bmw_n00b13: 6 ppm (limit = 150 ppm) PASS
- 15mph (2400 rpm): bluebee: 0 ppm (limit = 52 ppm, avg = 4 ppm), 87AKI, PASS
- 15mph (2445 rpm): bluebee: 9 ppm (limit = 52 ppm, avg = 4 ppm), 91AKI (worse than 87AKI), PASS
- 15mph (1757 rpm): gian: 1 ppm (limit = 51 ppm, avg = 4 ppm), PASS
- 15mph (1784 rpm): bugratu: 58 ppm (limit = 51 ppm, avg = 9 ppm) FAIL
- 15mph (1798 rpm): bugratu: 90 ppm (limit = 51 ppm, avg = 9 ppm) FAIL
- 15mph (1540 rpm): +moulin: 0 ppm (limit = 51 ppm, avg = 4 ppm), PASS
- fast idle: dunk1127: 42 (limit = 200 ppm), PASS

- 25mph: bmw_n00b13: 5 ppm (limit = 55 ppm), PASS
- 25mph (2400 rpm): bluebee: 0 ppm (limit = 36 ppm, avg = 4 ppm), 87AKI, PASS
- 25mph (2393 rpm): bluebee: 2 ppm (limit = 36 ppm, avg = 4 ppm), 91AKI (worse than 87AKI), PASS
- 25mph (1279 rpm): gian: 1 ppm (limit = 35 ppm, avg = 4 ppm), PASS
- 25mph (1718 rpm): bugratu: 34 ppm (limit = 35 ppm, avg = 7 ppm), PASS
- 25mph (1767 rpm): bugratu: 35 ppm (limit = 35 ppm, avg = 7 ppm), PASS
- 25mph (1717 rpm): +moulin: 0 ppm (limit = 35 ppm, avg = 4 ppm), PASS
- 2nd fast idle: dunk1127: 83 ppm, PASS
--------------------------------------
Carbon Monoxide:
- at idle: bmw_n00b13: 0% (limit = 0.70%), PASS
- 15mph (2400 rpm): bluebee: 0.00% (limit = 0.49%, avg = 0.01%), 87AKI, PASS
- 15mph (2445 rpm): bluebee: 0.01% (limit = 0.49%, avg = 0.01%), 97AKI (worse than 87AKI), PASS
- 15mph (1757 rpm): gian: 0.01% (limit = 0.48%, avg = 0.01%), PASS
- 15mph (1784 rpm): bugratu: 0.14% (limit = 0.48%, avg = 0.02%), PASS
- 15mph (1798 rpm): bugratu: 0.28% (limit = 0.48%, avg = 0.02%), PASS
- 15mph (1540 rpm): +moulin: 0.00% (limit = 0.48%, avg = 0.01%), PASS
- at idle: dunk1127: 0.468%, FAIL

- 25mph: bmw_n00b13: .01% (limit = 0.31%), PASS
- 25mph (2400 rpm): bluebee: 0.00% (limit = 0.46%, avg = 0.01%), 87AKI, PASS
- 25mph (2393 rpm): bluebee: 0.01% (limit = 0.46%, avg = 0.01%), 97AKI (worse than 87AKI), PASS
- 25mph (1279 rpm): gian: 0.01% (limit = 0.46%, avg = 0.01%), PASS
- 25mph (1718 rpm): bugratu: 0.14% (limit = 0.46%, avg = 0.03%), PASS
- 25mph (1767 rpm): bugratu: 0.07% (limit = 0.46%, avg = 0.03%), PASS
- 25mph (1717 rpm): +moulin: 0.00% (limit = 0.46%, avg = 0.01%), PASS
- fast idle: dunk1127: 0.627% (limit = 0.200%) FAIL (2nd fast idle: dunk1127: 0.467%.... another FAIL)
--------------------------------------
Carbon Dioxide:
- at idle: bmw_n00b13: ?
- 15mph (2400 rpm): bluebee: 15.0% (no limit provided), 87AKI
- 15mph (2445 rpm): bluebee: 15.1% (no limit provided), 91AKI (worse than 87AKI)
- 15mph (1757 rpm): gian: 14.9% (no limit provided)
- 15mph (1784 rpm): bugratu: 14.88% (no limit provided)
- 15mph (1798 rpm): bugratu: 14.4% (no limit provided)
- 15mph (1540 rpm): +moulin: 15.0% (no limit provided)
- at idle: dunk1127: ?

- 25mph: bmw_n00b13: ?
- 25mph (2400 rpm): bluebee: 15.0% (no limit provided), 87AKI
- 25mph (2393 rpm): bluebee: 15.1% (no limit provided), 91AKI (worse than 87AKI)
- 25mph (1279 rpm): gian: 14.9% (no limit provided)
- 25mph (1718 rpm): bugratu: 14.90% (no limit provided)
- 25mph (1767 rpm): bugratu: 14.5% (no limit provided)
- 25mph (1717 rpm): +moulin: 15.0% (no limit provided)
- fast idle: dunk1127: ?
--------------------------------------
Nitrogen Oxides:
- 15 mph: bmw_n00b13: untested
- 15mph (2400 rpm): bluebee: 21 ppm (limit = 424 ppm, avg = 16 ppm), 87AKI, PASS
- 15mph (2445 rpm): bluebee: 53 ppm (limit = 424 ppm, avg = 16 ppm), 91AKI (worse than 87AKI), PASS
- 15mph (1757 rpm): gian: 14 ppm (limit = 419 ppm, avg = 16 ppm), PASS
- 15mph (1784 rpm): bugratu: 354 ppm (limit = 419 ppm, avg = 57 ppm), PASS
- 15mph (1798 rpm): bugratu: 161 ppm (limit = 419 ppm, avg = 57 ppm), PASS
- 15mph (1540 rpm): +moulin: 3 ppm (limit = 419 ppm, avg = 16 ppm), PASS
- idle: dunk1127: not tested

- 25mph: bmw_n00b13: 36 ppm (limit = 408 ppm), PASS
- 25mph (2400 rpm): bluebee: 25 ppm (limit = 711 ppm, avg = 18 ppm), 87AKI, PASS
- 25mph (2393 rpm): bluebee: 63 ppm (limit = 711 ppm, avg = 18 ppm), 91AKI (worse than 87AKI), PASS
- 25mph (1279 rpm): gian: 1 ppm (limit = 706 ppm, avg = 18 ppm), PASS
- 25mph (1718 rpm): bugratu: 72 ppm (limit = 706 ppm, avg = 50 ppm), PASS
- 25mph (1767 rpm): bugratu: 0 ppm (limit = 706 ppm, avg = 50 ppm), PASS
- 25mph (1717 rpm): +moulin: 5 ppm (limit = 706 ppm, avg = 18 ppm), PASS
- fast idle: dunk1127: not tested
--------------------------------------
Oxygen:
- at idle: bmw_n00b13: no number provided
- 15mph (2400 rpm): bluebee: 0.0% (no limit provided), 87AKI
- 15mph (2445 rpm): bluebee: 0.0% (no limit provided), 91AKI
- 15mph (1757 rpm): gian: 0.0% (no limit provided)
- 15mph (1784 rpm): bugratu: 0.03% (no limit provided)
- 15mph (1798 rpm): bugratu: 0.0% (no limit provided)
- 15mph (1540 rpm): +moulin: 0.0% (no limit provided)
- fast idle: dunk1127: 1.028% (limit = 1.030%), PASS

- 25mph: bmw_n00b13: no number provided
- 25mph (2400 rpm): bluebee: 0.0% (no limit provided), 87AKI
- 25mph (2393 rpm): bluebee: 0.0% (no limit provided), 91AKI
- 25mph (1279 rpm): gian: 0.0% (no limit provided)
- 25mph (1718 rpm): bugratu: 0.02% (no limit provided)
- 25mph (1767 rpm): bugratu: 0.0% (no limit provided)
- 25mph (1717 rpm): +moulin: 0.0% (no limit provided)
- 2nd fast idle: dunk1127: lambda.. 1.040% (limit = 1.030%), PASS
--------------------------------------

Last edited by bluebee; 01-10-2011 at 09:25 PM.
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  #19  
Old 01-10-2011, 10:06 PM
yikes98 yikes98 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivinfaster View Post
running rich would not produce high NOx, as CO is used to reduce the NOx (oxides of nitrogen).

NOx is actually highest when the vehicle is running at its most efficient (stoichiometric ratio 14.7:1) on a properly tuned vehicle, which is why an egr system was developed to help reduce combustion temps (exhaust is inert, so it just takes up space in the combustion chamber, which reduces combustion temps)

since out cars (obd1) are not equipped with egr systems, the dme is programmed to compensate, and the cat will take care of the rest.

what i suggest is yes tot he seafoam, yes to the o2, and yes to the sparkplugs (oe is fine, you're not running a race car).

checking ignition leads with a dvom, meh, knock yourself out, but do you know what you are looking for?? if you are not misfiring, your better endeavor would be to check the fan clutch (if equipped) for proper operation, and make sure there are no restrictions in the radiator cooling fins. remember, NOx is high combustion temps.

repeat after me,

NOx is a result of high combusion temperatures, nothing else.
CO is a result of a rich running condition.
HC is a result of a misfire condition.
CO2 is an efficiency indicator (you're good here, even though you have it listed as 'CO')

since you are not that far off on spec, you may be able to just get away with an o2 and seafoam service, which is what i would do first.

and i would run about 1/2 the can through. then road blast. the rest you can put in the tank. then retest.

let us know how you make out.


df
"NOx is a result of high combusion temperatures, nothing else." true for engine out measurement but high tailpipe NOx could also be an exhaust leak before the catalyst. That what Mr. Horiba taught me. In Use Smog usually only test tailpipe.
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  #20  
Old 01-10-2011, 10:19 PM
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ZeGerman ZeGerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netdude View Post
So there's still 1 thing I never got to - engine temp gauge. I know I have a problem. The temp gauge on the dash shows the car as cold when in fact, it's hot. When I've been driving around for about 15 mins, the temp will show 1/4. It goes to 1/2 after about 45 mins of driving and I come to a red light. As soon as I start driving again, the temp will drop to 1/4. When I shut off the car and start it again 20 mins later, it'll show cold for about 5 mins, then goes to 1/4.
These are classic symptoms of a failed t-stat, which is odd, because you said that you just replaced it. If you did in fact recently replace the t-stat (and install it in the correct orientation), the only other thing I could think of for this would be a faulty sending unit.
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  #21  
Old 01-10-2011, 10:38 PM
netdude netdude is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeGerman View Post
These are classic symptoms of a failed t-stat, which is odd, because you said that you just replaced it. If you did in fact recently replace the t-stat (and install it in the correct orientation), the only other thing I could think of for this would be a faulty sending unit.
I'm almost certain it's the sending unit. I'm now trying to find a way to replace the sending unit without having to remove the entire intake. From what I've read, the intake needs to come out to gain access. I've read that people have swapped the connector with the temp sensor to verify the gauge is working properly. I'm thinking, if you can reach the connector to swap it for the test, maybe i can reach the sensor to replace it.

Anyhow, any thoughts on how to easily replace the temp sending unit would be great.

Oh, BTW, when the car is hot and I turn it off, sometimes, when I try to turn it on, it won't turn on. It makes a machine gun that ran out of bullets sound. I'm guessing the engine coolant temp sensor tells the computer the car is cold and the car floods the engine?

Thoughts?

Thanks

(BTW, I have to believe that the thermostat was installed correctly. does the arrow matter which way to be installed, pointing up or down? Anyhow, I installed the thermostat the same way I pulled it out - o-ring facing towards the radiator. I hope that's correct. Otherwise, I'd imagine, I would have probably overheated my car at 45 minutes of highway driving. Damn it, the arrow is pointing down! I need to swap it. However, I don't think it's affecting the temp gauge. Temp gauge is still nutty.

Last edited by netdude; 01-10-2011 at 10:47 PM.
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  #22  
Old 01-10-2011, 11:02 PM
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ZeGerman ZeGerman is offline
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Yes, the o-ring should be facing the radiator. And yes, the arrow should be at the 12 o'clock position. If it isn't, I'd advise to take it apart and correct it. I don't have a super technical explanation as to why, but I know that there is a vent hole in the t-stat that needs to be in the proper location to work correctly.

Also, I'm not familiar with how to replace the sending unit. There are plenty of DIY write-ups for manifold removal, but I'd have to search for info specific to temp sending units. I'd get that t-stat put in correctly, re-bleed everything, and see what happens. I'm not entirely convinced you need a new sending unit just yet.
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Last edited by ZeGerman; 01-10-2011 at 11:04 PM.
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  #23  
Old 01-11-2011, 04:10 PM
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drivinfaster drivinfaster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yikes98 View Post
"NOx is a result of high combusion temperatures, nothing else." true for engine out measurement but high tailpipe NOx could also be an exhaust leak before the catalyst. That what Mr. Horiba taught me. In Use Smog usually only test tailpipe.
not sure one way or the other, as i have never even tested a vehicle that had an exhaust leak. a leak, regardless of where in the system, will throw the readings off when measured at the tailpipe. (mostly O2 numbers, but i'm not here to quibble)

basic rule is, though, if you asked 10 emission repair techs what components to check for a NOx failure, an exhaust leak wouldn't be on the top half of their lists.

if there were an exhaust leak before the cat, then there would have to be a very rich running condition, or misfire (not due to running lean) to put additional fuel into the cat to be reduced. both of these scenarios have low parameters for NOx production in the combustion chamber but could produce NOx in the 2nd bed of the cat (if conditions were ideal). the 1st bed is for NOx reduction, while the 2nd is for HC/CO reduction.

if this were to happen, though, the cat would be melting down in short order.

so what you said may be possible, but very unlikely. at least in my experience. ymmv.


df
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  #24  
Old 01-12-2011, 10:52 PM
netdude netdude is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeGerman View Post
Yes, the o-ring should be facing the radiator. And yes, the arrow should be at the 12 o'clock position. If it isn't, I'd advise to take it apart and correct it. I don't have a super technical explanation as to why, but I know that there is a vent hole in the t-stat that needs to be in the proper location to work correctly.

Also, I'm not familiar with how to replace the sending unit. There are plenty of DIY write-ups for manifold removal, but I'd have to search for info specific to temp sending units. I'd get that t-stat put in correctly, re-bleed everything, and see what happens. I'm not entirely convinced you need a new sending unit just yet.
The thermostat reset correctly last night and the problem persists. Damn shame. Temperature gauge slowly warms up to just cold (blue) then drops off to nothing for about 5 mins as I drive around at around 50mph. Then it'll slowly come to about 1/4 and pretty much stay around there. It'll drop off and come up to 1/4 throughout the drive and go to about 1/2 if I drive long enough.

Thoughts? I do have a short that could be the culprit. I have no idea where the short is coming from. I think it may be my headlight wiring and I'll be pulling that out this weekend in search of the short. I've pulled out all my fuses and the car still pulls 2.4 amps without any fuses installed. Crazy! The reason I think it's the headlight is that with the car off and headlight turned off, I put the red lead of the ohm meter to one of the headlight cable and the black lead to the chassis and it shows 0ohms. Then I put the red lead to the other cable of the headlight, and still 0 ohm! I pull the fuse, and it'll show on open. Totally weird. I'm not sure what's going on there.

Anyhow, any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. Also, really considering pulling the intake to get to that damn engine coolant temp sensor. thoughts?
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  #25  
Old 04-16-2011, 10:30 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netdude View Post
considering pulling the intake to get to that damn engine coolant temp sensor. thoughts?
Update?
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