New X5 2011 with 46 miles Check Engine Light came on

Originally Posted by Rottieman

My 2011 X5 CEL came on at ~200 miles. I brought to the dealer who said he found a problem and fixed it. After driving it for about 1 week it came on again. Back to the dealer, left it there several days getting a loaner. This time it was supposed to be tested out with the remote assistance of a BMW engineer. Verdict: It can't be fixed, so BMW built another X5 exactly like this defective one. I touched base with a Lemon Law Lawyer who said he'd take my case, at no cost to me by making BMW pay all of his fees. I find myself constantly look at the control panel anticipating a return visit by the CEL in my replacement X5.

1. Your post shows an amazing ignorance about your car and the problems you had.... I've never of BMW declaring a car 'unfixable' for a single check engine light. Could happen I suppose, but it would seem there would be a lot more in between "light" and "junk"...just saying.

2. Your post shows an amazing ignorance at how the legal system and attorneys work... OF COURSE he will take the case at no charge and make BMW pay all HIS fees. All that will happen is you will get the car replaced, and he will get his fees paid. Without an attorney you will get your car replaced... the difference in the two scenarios? An attorney makes money.

Originally Posted by ard

1. Your post shows an amazing ignorance about your car and the problems you had.... I've never of BMW declaring a car 'unfixable' for a single check engine light. Could happen I suppose, but it would seem there would be a lot more in between "light" and "junk"...just saying.

2. Your post shows an amazing ignorance at how the legal system and attorneys work... OF COURSE he will take the case at no charge and make BMW pay all HIS fees. All that will happen is you will get the car replaced, and he will get his fees paid. Without an attorney you will get your car replaced... the difference in the two scenarios? An attorney makes money.

And then prices increase. I'm on my 2nd BMW, and have had only 1 minor issue (turbo fault) between the two in almost 4 years. If a company (and dealership) is willing to take care of you, why slap them in the face with an attorney?

Originally Posted by ard

1. Your post shows an amazing ignorance about your car and the problems you had.... I've never of BMW declaring a car 'unfixable' for a single check engine light. Could happen I suppose, but it would seem there would be a lot more in between "light" and "junk"...just saying.

2. Your post shows an amazing ignorance at how the legal system and attorneys work... OF COURSE he will take the case at no charge and make BMW pay all HIS fees. All that will happen is you will get the car replaced, and he will get his fees paid. Without an attorney you will get your car replaced... the difference in the two scenarios? An attorney makes money.

After 2,200-odd posts, how can you be "amazed" by the ignorance of anyone? This guy doesn't even make it into my Top 10 (though he does get points for trying).

On a more serious note, I am wondering if this is another bus issue. That could explain their making a decision not to run a long PUMA case and rack up tech hours chasing an unsolvable problem. Seems to be happening way too often, especially for a vehicle this far into its life cycle. I wonder if they changed suppliers?

OTOH it may be something as simple as the tech totalling the car on a test drive.

Originally Posted by quackbury

After 2,200-odd posts, how can you be "amazed" by the ignorance of anyone? This guy doesn't even make it into my Top 10 (though he does get points for trying).

On a more serious note, I am wondering if this is another bus issue. That could explain their making a decision not to run a long PUMA case and rack up tech hours chasing an unsolvable problem. Seems to be happening way too often, especially for a vehicle this far into its life cycle. I wonder if they changed suppliers?

OTOH it may be something as simple as the tech totalling the car on a test drive.

Maybe BMW was trying to avoid something like this:

I read about all the s**t that has been going on with some these SC manufactured cars; spontaneously setting ablaze then burning to a crisp, for no apparent reasons. I didn't trust the reliabilty of this X5 and still don't I don't want to travel and sit all day waiting at dealership for a repair which isn't any repair. The loaner car I was given was some 3XXX X model with rear wheel drive. I have a steep, and right now icy driveway, and any rear wheel drive is absolutely useless. (I've been dealing with this driveway now for about 20 years, know all to well that I'd need a tow truck to get off of it with any rear wheel drive car. And that assumes I can get a tow truck in this weather.) A brand new car that proved defective within a month's time and wasn't 'fixable' in 2 attempts is a *Lemon*. My previous (also leased) cars were a 2007 X5 and three different 4Runner Ltds, no problems whatsoevet. The Toyota staff were friendly and a pleasure to deal with. My BMW dealer puts on that act like he's doing me a grteat big favor in just looking at me. With a 4Runner I can engage 4 wheel drive in addition to low gear at will. I don't have to trust my cars 'decisions' on this. I should have gone back to a 4Runner to begin with (even with all of Toyota's problems). In winter time all my 4Runners navigated better on my ice patched than did my previous X5. Invoking the Lemon Law would have provided the excellent opportunity to rid myself of any X5.

Originally Posted by ard

Got it, worried.

There is no way to know what is causing the CEL (check engine light).

All the BMW SOS system will know is "cel", not which of the hurdreds of codes (and hundreds of issues) it might be.

Let us know what the dealer says...in particular YOU WANT THE ACTUAL CODE.

I wouldn't be happy, for sure...but I wouldnt be worried.

A

I have a 2011 x35i and started having the same problem as the OP (I think) around 4000 miles. I am now around 8 or 9000 and the problem has not gone away. I have brought it to the dealership twice, and both times they found "Fault 3227 for DMTL Line Disconnection" (copied that from service dep't paperwork). They claim after further investigation that each time, the fault was incorrect, meaning all related lines/grounds etc checked out fine, and that this appears to be a possible false positive.

The CEL has come on around 5 times in the last 2 months, seems to stay on for a few days at a time (unless the dealership clears the fault), and goes back off for a few days or couple weeks. The latest I heard is that PUMA told the techs they have made this complaint a top priority and would get back to the techs ASAP with a fix. However, it's been a couple months and no one has called, and the CEL periodically comes on as it's been doing.

As it stands, I am hoping to hear something soon. If I check with my own OBD-II while the CEL is on, it shows up as code P2400, and this is the only info I could find out about it:

"Evaporative Emission System Leak Detection Pump Control Circuit/Open"
(from http://gearheadwiki.com/wiki/OBD-II_code_P2400)

Appreciate any useful advice offered!

Originally Posted by Onnastick

Appreciate any useful advice offered!

1. Open the owners manual/warranty booklet you got withthe car.
2. read and UNDERSTAND what you need to do to file a Lemon Claim (ie giving BMW notice)
3. Do so in writing, send Certified Mail. Send a copy to your dealer.
4. Wait
5. Give them one more chance (I think you have to)
6. Pick out new colors and options for your new X5.....

Unless you start this process you will simply NOT get the attention this requires....

IMO

A

Originally Posted by ard

1. Your post shows an amazing ignorance about your car and the problems you had.... I've never of BMW declaring a car 'unfixable' for a single check engine light. Could happen I suppose, but it would seem there would be a lot more in between "light" and "junk"...just saying.

2. Your post shows an amazing ignorance at how the legal system and attorneys work... OF COURSE he will take the case at no charge and make BMW pay all HIS fees. All that will happen is you will get the car replaced, and he will get his fees paid. Without an attorney you will get your car replaced... the difference in the two scenarios? An attorney makes money.

"Amazing ignorance", I'll let others decide whose post shows more. If the LLaw is applied to a car, its owner has TWO choices, (ONE) having it replaced and (TWO) having every penny paid into that car refunded to you. That's what I was told by the Lemon lawyer I touched base with. However, maybe he too is amazingly ignorant about the law, but I can't say. However, I am smart enough not to call him out on it in your terms. I was also smart enough to be able to pay to raise and educate my sons, one of who is a Corporate Attorney. I've learned to let Lawyers interpret the law and I humbly suggest that you do the same.

my X5 gets a CEL every so often as well... the 1st time I pulled the codes I got a P228E code which I just cleared.... then a few weeks later the light came on but went away after a few key cycles.... then yesterday on again and today its off again....
The only thing I can think of is this- everytime it has come on it's been the day I drive the truck after sitting for the previous day... like Sunday it was parked and it came on Monday after accelerating out of a parking lot quickly.....
Maybe something with the cold weather freezing some solenoid or possibly water freezing in the tank???

Originally Posted by Onnastick

I have a 2011 x35i and started having the same problem as the OP (I think) around 4000 miles. I am now around 8 or 9000 and the problem has not gone away. I have brought it to the dealership twice, and both times they found "Fault 3227 for DMTL Line Disconnection" (copied that from service dep't paperwork). They claim after further investigation that each time, the fault was incorrect, meaning all related lines/grounds etc checked out fine, and that this appears to be a possible false positive.

The CEL has come on around 5 times in the last 2 months, seems to stay on for a few days at a time (unless the dealership clears the fault), and goes back off for a few days or couple weeks. The latest I heard is that PUMA told the techs they have made this complaint a top priority and would get back to the techs ASAP with a fix. However, it's been a couple months and no one has called, and the CEL periodically comes on as it's been doing.

As it stands, I am hoping to hear something soon. If I check with my own OBD-II while the CEL is on, it shows up as code P2400, and this is the only info I could find out about it:

"Evaporative Emission System Leak Detection Pump Control Circuit/Open"
(from http://gearheadwiki.com/wiki/OBD-II_code_P2400)

Appreciate any useful advice offered!

When my CEL appeared, it stayed on and this happened twice. The first time the dealer's techs re-set things turning it off. In short order it went right back on and remained on regardless of how and when the car was used. While the CEL was on (the second time around) the dealer's techs worked on the car along with remote assistance by engineers at BMW. Still, nada, they acknowledged a problem existed that they didn't know how to fix. A Lemon Law Attorney told me that from a legal stand point an inability to fix translates as a "refusal to fix". My 2011 X5 was really brand new, having only about 400 miles on it. I can't see how old your car is (but only "around 5 times in the last 2 months"). If this was going on with me, I'd touch base with a Lemon Law Attorney to learn my rights, as your dealer doesn't appear to be serving your rights. I had a huge problem with a Chevy about 40 years ago, there being no recourse, I traded it for another car, accepting a huge loss.

Originally Posted by Rottieman

"Amazing ignorance", I'll let others decide whose post shows more. If the LLaw is applied to a car, its owner has TWO choices, (ONE) having it replaced and (TWO) having every penny paid into that car refunded to you. That's what I was told by the Lemon lawyer I touched base with. However, maybe he too is amazingly ignorant about the law, but I can't say. However, I am smart enough not to call him out on it in your terms. I was also smart enough to be able to pay to raise and educate my sons, one of who is a Corporate Attorney. I've learned to let Lawyers interpret the law and I humbly suggest that you do the same.

"touching base" with a lemon law attorney, and having a case adjudicated are just slightly different things.

I'd say on a verbal consult the lemon law attorney was not amazing ignorant, but probably "predictably disingenuous".


Like I said, a 'CEL' is not the 'fault'. The fault is the code that set the light. If you have 10 different codes and the dealer fixes it each time and it never recurs (and he doesn't keep the car for whatever the time limit is in your state) it is not a lemon law case.

Originally Posted by ard

"touching base" with a lemon law attorney, and having a case adjudicated are just slightly different things.

I'd say on a verbal consult the lemon law attorney was not amazing ignorant, but probably "predictably disingenuous".


Like I said, a 'CEL' is not the 'fault'. The fault is the code that set the light. If you have 10 different codes and the dealer fixes it each time and it never recurs (and he doesn't keep the car for whatever the time limit is in your state) it is not a lemon law case.

Duh? Oh really? A code sets the light? And not an underlying mechanical or electrical problem that these codes represent? The bottom line is that my dealer had my car with CEL displayed for about a week or more, examining these codes with remote assistance from BMW engineers and yet still declared the problem unfixable. "Amazing Ignorance", it's not me who declared the car "unfixable" but the head of my dealer's service department. They along with the BMG engineers involved with my X5 are the ones to be called ignorant, and not me. There's no reason I should be expected to meet my monthly obligations to be the beneficiary of their ignorance. What should I be expected to know in these matters, other than filling the gas tank, push the start button, etc., etc.? AND pay the bills on my lease. I'm amazingly ignorant about TVs but when mine is broken I reasonably expect a service tech having the required knowledge to fix it or inform me how to fix it myself (as happened to me not long ago when the lamp burned out in my projection LCD TV). If it were under warranty it would be fixed or fixable or they would automatically ship a new to me and I'd still remain blissfully ignorant as to its operation and/or any codes.

So are all lawyers are "predictably disingenuous"? Except of course when you need one; closing on a house, divorce settlements, class action suits against a pharmaceutical company which had to withdraw an inadequately tested product with fudged results causing grave bodily harm or even death, established class action suits, malpractice cases against physicians causing harm or death of a family member due to his/her admitted error. Like all the rest of us lawyers have bills to pay and wouldn't waste time on a case without merit, and particularly so when they guarantee no fees to me, case settled in my favor or not.

Car companies and their affiliations are the predictably disingenuous ones, should they see a Lemon on the horizon, that declaration will forever be tacked onto the service record of that VIN, and they then try to buy it back, passing it on to the next victim.

The bottom line and take home lesson here is that this car remained "UNFIXABLE", and the dealership along with BMW offered to build another exactly like it (hopefully less its problem). I accepted their offer. I hope never see a problem with it. If I should, Lemon Lawyer, here I come!
However I will never buy (or lease) another BMW X5 or X3.

When the DME detects an error condition- this can be an absolute failure of a sensor or module, or it can be a combination of operating parameters that the DME determines to be outside the operating range, it sets a code in memory. It ALSO sets the CEL light. (Sometimes a code which is not an emissions failure can be set and the CEL does not come on. And after a certain number of starts with no new codes present, the CEL goes off. The code still sits in memory.)

Like I said, there are hundreds of errors and failures and issues that will cause the DME to turn on the light.

The light itself is NOT a defect. It is indicative of some other fault. The reason this matters, for a lemon claim, is that most states require the same failure to recur

If you have not noticed, in life there is a spectrum of 'honesty' that you will get from people, usually in direct relation to how 'documented' their statements may be... so an lemon law attorney- or a TV repair man, or a BMW SA during a VERBAL DISCUSSION will say very different things as opposed to what they put on a written pleading, a written estimate or a written work order.

Good news for you is after you are done with this car, you'll never have to worry about dealing with BMW again. Best of luck

Originally Posted by ard

When the DME detects an error condition- this can be an absolute failure of a sensor or module, or it can be a combination of operating parameters that the DME determines to be outside the operating range, it sets a code in memory. It ALSO sets the CEL light. (Sometimes a code which is not an emissions failure can be set and the CEL does not come on. And after a certain number of starts with no new codes present, the CEL goes off. The code still sits in memory.)

Like I said, there are hundreds of errors and failures and issues that will cause the DME to turn on the light.

The light itself is NOT a defect. It is indicative of some other fault. The reason this matters, for a lemon claim, is that most states require the same failure to recur

Naturally, but whatever failure there is/was didn't have to "recur". It was evidenced there continuously. And both some BMW engineers and my dealer's service department working together couldn't determine was at fault. "Amazingly igonrant", I suppose.


Good news for you is after you are done with this car, you'll never have to worry about dealing with BMW again. Best of luck

How many times are we to re-hash this same story??? Why am I to be concerned with the reason for the CEL? (It didn't have to recur as it was there present and showing all the time.) The reason for any of this is someone else's area of expertise and it's their problem and not mine. If I were a Surgeon, is BMW expected to deal with any Warning Indication I might experience while carrying out my obligations in the OR? Why bug me with any of BMW's s**t? The fact that you are doing so clearly identifies the amazingly stupid one.

The bottom line is that BMW and the dealer service department also have to be amazingly stupid since they re-built another car rather than being capable of fixing mine (and it was brand new)! I don't believe they would have acted as they did if there wasn't a Lemon Law and Lemon Law Lawyers. When I uttered the word *lawyer* during a conversation with a manager at my dealership, he threw a hissy-fit. Auto dealers with their sales people have gone out of their way earning their widely known reputations.

I'm not as certain as you seem to be that I'll "never have to worry about dealing with BMW again". That's based upon an assumption and science doesn't run on assumptions.

Originally Posted by Rottieman

...The reason for any of this is someone else's area of expertise and it's their problem and not mine. If I were a Surgeon, is BMW expected to deal with any Warning Indication I might experience while carrying out my obligations in the OR? .

A valid point, but if I were a BMW technician and went to a surgeon with a pain in my side, for whic he proposed an operation, I would probably want to know exactly what was wrong and precisely what he was planning to do in there, before I said "cut away," even if it wasn't my area of expertise.

But then again, I know some people who do take that approach with their doctors.

Originally Posted by Penguin

A valid point, but if I were a BMW technician and went to a surgeon with a pain in my side, for whic he proposed an operation, I would probably want to know exactly what was wrong and precisely what he was planning to do in there, before I said "cut away," even if it wasn't my area of expertise.

But then again, I know some people who do take that approach with their doctors.

While I emphatically agree with what you wrote, and do the same, plus I'd additionally get consults from two other surgeons to see if they all agree. However all of this couldn't predict a Warning Light going off while a procedure is under way. And that's what we're dealing with here. Unanticapated events not built into the normal operational procedure occurred; now who is supposed to have to deal with it? A team of surgeons or some BMW personnel who don't know Jack###t about surgery?

There are times when the CEL is illuminated because the exact same problem is recurring (i.e. the same code is being thrown). It appears that this happened to Rottieman, and BMW is replacing his car. As far as I can tell, there was no drama, no fight, no litigation. We cannot know if the resolution would have been the same if he had not muttered "lawyer" under his breath. But if his argument is that you need to threaten legal action to have BMW do the right thing, he has not presented any evidence to support that.

OTOH, ard (quite rightly in my opinion) noted that the CEL can be thrown by DIFFERENT causes, and that a succession of CEL's may not result in a successful vehicle replacement, whether or not accomplished via a Lemon Law claim. Many folks come here looking for more information on their vehicle, and I think they are well served by ard's observation that not all CEL's are necessarily evil, nor will it always be prudent / effective / profitable to retain a lemon law attorney.

I think the big difference between Rottieman and others, is that he is apparently not looking to learn anything new here, just relate his own experience. Personally, I expect that statistically there will be a certain number of defects with any manufactured product (thank you Edward Deming), and I am encouraged that BMW stood behind their product - regardless of how brilliant or clueless the local service advisors may have been. Bravo.

I took delivery of my 2011 X5 in December of 2010, I didn't drive it a lot, but my boyfriend had it often, when the car had about 600 miles on it he informed me the engine light was on. I took the car in for service. Also, the rear tire flat indicator came on. I made 4 trips to 4 different BMW dealers within 3 weeks for the tire light. The 4th dealer finally found that it was the tire pressure senor was lose. Now, it is July 2011, the car has been to 3 different dealers for the emissions light about 10 different times. I recently settled a lawsuit with BMW, but I decided to keep the truck (it has sentimental value, ha ha ha). The dealer continues to replace the tank vent valve, pressure boost sensor, and lastly the gas line from the fuel tank to the engine. It seems as though when I accelerate hard (when passing someone), that triggers the light to come on, I think it is really something with the turbos causing the light to come on.

My maps.google.com send to navigation stopped working, I called BMW assist twice, they said they would have a "technician" check into it and call me back. That was over a week ago.

And I also had a 2007 3-series, I am glad they settled the class action lawsuit for the tire issues, I will be getting back most of my money for the 5,000.00 worth of tires I put on that car.

Its been over 12 months, I went to my first scheduled maintenance, they updated the software to the latest levels (as per what they told me and as per the work-done statement). However, in 2 days, the light came back on! I am now getting really frustrated with it. Looks like someone is hiding something from me.

Originally Posted by markcars

Its been over 12 months, I went to my first scheduled maintenance, they updated the software to the latest levels (as per what they told me and as per the work-done statement). However, in 2 days, the light came back on! I am now getting really frustrated with it. Looks like someone is hiding something from me.

I have attempted to follow this thread and the other one's like it, the thread reminds me of the movie ' Ground Hog Day", same thing over and over again