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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #26  
Old 04-07-2011, 05:07 AM
Mudbone Mudbone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdmac View Post
Bluebee, just for you, I've been struggling to come up with a definition for a "dab," an inherently vague term, and so here's my stab at it:
dab: A small amount of a non-discrete substance that is sufficient for its intended purpose without being excessive.

Bob,

I like your definition. However I think it appropriate to point out that while a “dab” might have been the correct amount, I used a “gob” at the “cut points” of the replacement gasket. It was done purely out of fear of another leak.

And now for Bluebee's sake, some “higher math” - Gob = 3X dab

Day 5 – NO Leaks
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  #27  
Old 04-07-2011, 05:38 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudbone View Post
for Bluebee's sake, some "higher math" - Gob = 3X dab


Got it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudbone View Post
I used a "gob" at the "cut points" of the replacement gasket.
Hi Mudbone,
Since this is such a fundamental repair, every detail brings up a need for further clarification:
  • If you used a (gob=3 * dab=3 * just_enough) of sealant only at the cut points, does that imply you used absolutely nothing for the rest of the oil pan gasket?
Also, looking at the reference that cn90 quoted:
  • That person "aimed" the cut to be midway between bolt holes
  • Neither your cuts nor cn90's suggestions seem to take particular aim to be "midway" between bolt holes
  • With respect to bolt holes, do you have any recommendations for us for aiming our (future) cuts?

Last edited by bluebee; 04-08-2011 at 06:05 AM.
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  #28  
Old 04-07-2011, 06:22 AM
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wdgiles wdgiles is offline
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So for what I spent on the drip pan at wally world I could have fixed my problem permanently? Sheesh. Now Im off to partsweb to order a gasket and the hylomar sealant. Sounds like a good investment of time to finally have a drip free garage floor
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  #29  
Old 04-07-2011, 06:36 AM
Mudbone Mudbone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post


Got it!



Hi Mudbone,
Since this is such a fundamental repair, every detail brings up a need for further clarification:
  • If you used a (gob=3 * dab=3 * just_enough) of sealant only at the cut points, does that imply you used absolutely nothing for the rest of the oil filter gasket?
Also, looking at the reference that cn90 quoted:
  • That person "aimed" the cut to be midway between bolt holes
  • Neither your cuts nor cn90's suggestions seem to take particular aim to be "midway" between bolt holes
  • With respect to bolt holes, do you have any recommendations for us for aiming our (future) cuts?
Let fix a typo in your question before we go any further. This is NOT the oil FILTER gasket.

And yes it did use gasket sealant on the rest of the gasket, more specifically "where I could get it".
Without removing the subframe there is limited access. It was impossible "for me" to get gasket sealant along the front except where I cut it, the harmonic balancer is in the way (hence why I cut it there).

At the aft end, the bell housing is in the way and impossible "for me" to get sealant along that edge either.

As for cutting midway between holes, the gasket itself does not carry any load. Hence edge margin is not a factor. The metal portion of the gasket is there to limit the amount of compression the rubber sees.

As for future cuts, if you do as I did and not take anything off the car, i.e. subframe or steering rack; I believe my locations are best.

If you take the steering rack off you will have more room and I would examine making the both cuts on the “high” side of the engine. You would have to experiment. I believe that having the “splice area(s)” on the high side to be best. I’m not sure what the oil level is when there is none flowing through the engine, but it might be below the upper side of the oil pan. It may not have static oil on it.
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  #30  
Old 04-07-2011, 08:28 AM
BMR01530 BMR01530 is offline
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Not being too familar with this.. why is a cut needed?

Could the gasket as a whole be slide in on a piece of construction paper and then have the paper pulled out from under it, leaving the gasket in place?
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  #31  
Old 04-07-2011, 08:40 AM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Mudbone, thanks for those details.

BMR01530, my bet is, internal engine parts hanging down below pan level block straight insertion of the gasket in one piece.

I'd be curious to know how much room the pan has to move around after being unbolted. If it drops enough to allow cleaning off the old seal material from the mating surfaces, how much space are we talking about here? Can the pan be tilted front/back or sideways at all?

Reading the TIS procedure on this, they say raise the engine 5 mm, approx. That's 1/5th of an inch! Would it not be possible to jack it from the pan itself and put a couple shims under the motor mounts?

TIS procedure also mentions applying "approx 3 mm wide, 2 mm high coat of Drei Bond 1209 sealing agent to the area around the seams." Does Drei mean Three? As in Three Bond 1209?

Last edited by pleiades; 04-07-2011 at 09:54 AM.
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  #32  
Old 04-07-2011, 08:53 AM
540nj 540nj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR01530 View Post
Not being too familar with this.. why is a cut needed?

Could the gasket as a whole be slide in on a piece of construction paper and then have the paper pulled out from under it, leaving the gasket in place?
The entire purpose of this thread is to explain how to put the gasket on without moving everything out of the way. Did you start from the beginning?

dave
03 540i6
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  #33  
Old 04-07-2011, 10:34 AM
BMR01530 BMR01530 is offline
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540 nj -

I read the whole thing.. does it say why you have to cut it?

If it slips in from each end, seems the whole gasket could slide in??? Just seems that if each of these halves can be slide in, then why not the whole...

Maybe the tubes in the pan feeding the sump pump, create an obstacle. that would be a reason to have to split it.
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  #34  
Old 04-07-2011, 11:10 AM
cn90 cn90 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR01530 View Post
...Maybe the tubes in the pan feeding the sump pump, create an obstacle. that would be a reason to have to split it.
BMR01530,

That was precisely the issue, the oil pump's pickup tube is in the way, making it very very difficult to slide the oil pan gasket in 1 piece.

However, if you search the internet, you will see that some people successfully slide the gasket in as 1 piece with great difficulty (because the gasket has a metal component to it).

As already mentioned above, the metal part of the gasket is there to limit how much the rubber is squeezed when torquing the oil pan bolts.
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  #35  
Old 04-08-2011, 06:11 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudbone View Post
oil FILTER gasket.
Oops. I fixed that ditz by re-editing the post. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudbone View Post
I did use gasket sealant on the rest of the gasket ... "where I could get it" ... It was impossible "for me" to get gasket sealant along the front ... At the aft end, the bell housing is in the way and impossible "for me" to get sealant along that edge either
I understand. But, what I don't understand is why not put the gasket sealant on both sides of the gasket BEFORE even cutting it.

That way, there's sealant everywhere. Or do I miss something major? (Like perhaps the crud that might stick to it accidentally while you're wriggling it into place?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudbone View Post
the harmonic balancer is in the way (hence why I cut it there)
This is very useful information to know your algorithm!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudbone View Post
As for cutting midway between holes ... edge margin is not a factor
Interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudbone View Post
If you take the steering rack off you will have more room and I would examine making the both cuts on the “high” side of the engine.
Again, good algorithmic advice for the next intrepid pioneer!
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  #36  
Old 04-08-2011, 06:36 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pleiades View Post
Reading the TIS procedure on this
For some reason, I never was good at locating the right TIS at the right time. Can you post a PDF of that TIS procedure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pleiades View Post
TIS procedure also mentions applying "approx 3 mm wide, 2 mm high coat of Drei Bond 1290 sealing agent
I'm confused. Previous (flawed?) research (BMW spec sheet) came up with "Hylomar" sealant. However, the TIS lists Drei Bond 1209 which is not listed in this BMW list of sealants (pdf) (jpg).

But, this Drei Bond 1209 Silikone stuff is very highly recommended in my cursory search just now:

Quote:
Drei Bond 1209 is almost clear, and an anaerobic sealer (doesn't harden in the absence of air), so it stays pliable and rarely do I have to re-seal anything
That cursory search nets interesting BMW-related DIYs enthusiastically advocating its use:
- Removing and installing oil pan (M52 / S52 / M52TU / M54)
- Oil Pan Seal
- Cylinder Head Cover / Valve Cover / Camshaft Cover Gaskets
- etc.

BTW, at 2 mm high, that's a lot more Drei Bond 1209 Silicone sealant than a sparing 'dab' or 'gob', isn't it?

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Last edited by bluebee; 04-08-2011 at 07:09 AM.
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  #37  
Old 04-08-2011, 07:07 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pleiades View Post
Does Drei mean Three? As in Three Bond 1209?
My Bentley has no instances of "Drei Bond 1209" but it does have 32 individual references to "Three Bond 1209" and "3 Bond 1209":
- Cylinder head (pages 113-18, 21, 40, 53, 54, 70, 71, 80, 82, etc.)
- Cylinder head and valvetrain (pages 116-11 et al)
- Camshaft timing chain (pages 117-19, et al)
- Lubrication System (pages 119-7, et al)

Here, for example, is a reference from page 119-12:
Quote:

When installing oil pan:
  • Thoroughly clean all old gasket material from mating surfaces and use a new gasket.
  • Apply a small amount of non-hardening sealer (3 Bond 1209 or equivalent) to oil pan gasket directly below joints (arrows) for end cover and front timing case cover.
  • Apply a bead 3 mm wide by 2 mm high.
  • Install all oil pan bolts finger tight. Tighten oil pan bolts toward front of engine first, then pan bolts at transmission end.
Tightening torques:
  • Oil drain plug to oil pan
    • (M12) 25 Nm (18 ft-lb)
  • Oil pan to engine block
    • MG (8.8 grade) 10 Nm (89 In-lb)
    • MG (10.9 grade) 12 Nm (9 ft-lb)
    • M8 (8.8 grade) 22 Nm (16 R-lb)
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Last edited by bluebee; 04-08-2011 at 07:11 AM.
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  #38  
Old 04-08-2011, 09:41 AM
cn90 cn90 is offline
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I do NOT have an E46 but reading the E46 forums, these guys are crying over the same Oil Pan Gasket Job LOL!!!

If someone here has an account in E46 forum, please let them know this "cutting gasket" trick!!!

Here are the threads that these guys are crying over:

http://www.e46fanatics.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=184018

http://www.e46fanatics.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=820305

http://www.e46fanatics.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=457789
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  #39  
Old 04-08-2011, 09:57 AM
genuity genuity is offline
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^HA! I'm in two of those threads. I'm about to go in for a second time to check out the oil pump nut and wire I put in about 7k prior, but also doing a suspension overhaul with some other stuff. First link, post #17, has quite a nice pic
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  #40  
Old 04-08-2011, 10:10 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR01530 View Post
I read the whole thing.. does it say why you have to cut it?
You didn't follow the little bouncing rubber ball!

For example, if you go back to post #6 above, and click on the link referenced, you'll see the preliminary discussions about this trick between Mudbone & cn90.

Quote:
Here is the thread that precipitated this wonderful ground-breaking teamwork (cn90 & Mudbone) solution:
- E39 (1997 - 2003) > Who has replaced their oil pan gasket?
Everyone else had already read that link so they 'knew' what the problem we're trying to solve was.
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  #41  
Old 04-08-2011, 10:18 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genuity View Post
post #17, has quite a nice pic
Just in case that post disappears over time, here is the pic referenced, shrunken to 640x480 pixels as per this DIY:
- How to post, shrink, modify, edit, annotate, merge, & upload pictures for posting here (1)

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  #42  
Old 04-08-2011, 10:27 AM
cn90 cn90 is offline
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Originally Posted by genuity View Post
^HA! I'm in two of those threads....
Then please post this thread so they know they can cut the gasket too.
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  #43  
Old 04-08-2011, 10:51 AM
genuity genuity is offline
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Originally Posted by cn90 View Post
Then please post this thread so they know they can cut the gasket too.
Done! You are really limiting yourself by just being apart of one forum.
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  #44  
Old 04-08-2011, 03:35 PM
Jimmys 530i Jimmys 530i is offline
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Nice. I will try this next time I have to change it. I usually struggle with it and do it the kosher way. I have cut the gasket though on an older diesel truck that required the cab to removed just so you could change the gasket.
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  #45  
Old 04-09-2011, 08:45 AM
Mrbeemer525 Mrbeemer525 is offline
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Very cool! I think I may want to try this method. A little shy though, maybe I should wait until a few more of you more experienced people have had success and or more pics etc.
Awesome idea, great job! How's it doing so far now?
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  #46  
Old 04-09-2011, 08:55 AM
cn90 cn90 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mrbeemer525 View Post
...A little shy though, maybe I should wait until a few more of you more experienced people have had success and or more pics etc...
This VERY THREAD by m123 said he did this trick (cutting the gasket then add RTV sealant) in his E30 and it was still good after 150K miles:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...57&postcount=5

So if you need to do yours, go ahead, don't be fearful.
You will be added to the Hall of Fame LOL!
What do you have to lose? Nothing.
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  #47  
Old 04-11-2011, 04:46 AM
Mudbone Mudbone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrbeemer525 View Post
Very cool! I think I may want to try this method. A little shy though, maybe I should wait until a few more of you more experienced people have had success and or more pics etc.
Awesome idea, great job! How's it doing so far now?
I has been over a week and NO LEAKS! I think I'm convinced!
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  #48  
Old 04-27-2011, 10:43 AM
Jared@EAC Jared@EAC is offline
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What did you cut it with?

As a general statement, everyone please remember that any sealant used must go somewhere. Too much in the wrong place can mean it will be squeezed into your engine. It can harden in oil passages or chunks may be circulated until they get stuck in a passage. Sealant is awesome, but use it correctly.

I'd highly recommend everyone try a product call RedHead gasket shellac. Awesome stuf.
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  #49  
Old 04-27-2011, 11:30 AM
Mudbone Mudbone is offline
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Originally Posted by Jared@EACTuning View Post
What did you cut it with?

As a general statement, everyone please remember that any sealant used must go somewhere. Too much in the wrong place can mean it will be squeezed into your engine. It can harden in oil passages or chunks may be circulated until they get stuck in a passage. Sealant is awesome, but use it correctly.

I'd highly recommend everyone try a product call RedHead gasket shellac. Awesome stuf.
I used aviation snips and then deburred with a file.

It has been nearly a month now and still NO LEAKS!
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  #50  
Old 04-27-2011, 01:22 PM
cn90 cn90 is offline
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As Jared pointed out, using RTV correctly is the key.
- Also let it sit according to the instructions in the RTV package, usually 1-2h of curing before installing things back.

Back to this topic by Mudbone, all people need is a bead of RTV slightly smaller than toothpaste on the toothbrush. If you can achieve a thickness slightly thicker than the gasket itself, you are good to go.
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