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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #1  
Old 07-13-2011, 07:44 PM
casper casper is offline
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F10 550i has won me over

After 3000 miles , I am used to my F10 550i and am enjoying the car, I no longer miss the E60, I am used to the steering and suspension. I can feel the BMW inside this car. Now I have to refrain from driving other cars so I can keep my F10 high.
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  #2  
Old 07-13-2011, 08:05 PM
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And the award for the most qualified recommendation goes to....
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  #3  
Old 07-13-2011, 08:15 PM
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After 5000 miles, I'm used to it too. Oh wait, you're talking about the F10 itself, I was talking about the smile I get every time I hit the gas pedal.
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  #4  
Old 07-13-2011, 08:27 PM
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Good to hear something positive from an F10 owner for a change, as I'm deciding weather to pull the trigger on an 550i M sport myself. I've been reading so many posts about unhappy owners that Im not sure if I really should go for it or keep looking for something else.
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  #5  
Old 07-13-2011, 08:27 PM
ifnd323 ifnd323 is offline
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Casper - what was not to love from day 1?
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  #6  
Old 07-13-2011, 08:52 PM
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  #7  
Old 07-13-2011, 11:04 PM
bavariancraving bavariancraving is offline
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Originally Posted by highyo View Post
And the award for the most qualified recommendation goes to....
Highyo, you seriously have the best car pics. Are you a photog?
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  #8  
Old 07-14-2011, 07:06 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Originally Posted by ifnd323 View Post
Casper - what was not to love from day 1?
Coming from an E60, I can understand his comments. Much has been made of this, but the F10 is a very different car from the E60. I don't begrudge anyone who doesn't like the F10. It is more isolated, more aloof than the E60.

I am glad, for him, that he has come around. I hate to see anyone be sad about a $70k purchase.
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  #9  
Old 07-14-2011, 08:44 AM
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I have covered 5450 miles trouble free in mine, and goes like stink.
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  #10  
Old 07-14-2011, 10:02 AM
schraderade schraderade is offline
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I'm also an E60->F10 owner and I think the F10 is a far better drive. I'm not a particular fan of the aesthetics, but that's a different issue.

I think once one understands how the electronic steering works and why there is no gyroscopic feedback, the F10 just handles better than the E60. The steering is more precise and the suspension is a LOT better.

More importantly, the dynamic handling is a giant leap forward from the E60.
BMW traditionalists lament the loss of mechanical roadfeel, but that is NOT what the BMW driving paradigm is about these days. The paradigm is about dynamic handling. That is, the car should adapt to a broad range of driving styles and conditions.
So if I'm driving in the city I don't want stiff, mechanical road feel or a steep throttle curve. I want ultra damp suspension that chews up uneven pavement, lighter steering, and a flatter acceleration curve.
If I'm driving on a freeway commute I want stiffer suspension and steering at speed.
If I'm cranking alpine turns I need even more throttle response and steering feedback.

The F10 doesn't have the mechanical roadfeel of the E60 (which didn't have the mechanical roadfeel of the E39). But it has WAY better dynamic range in handling. Flip a switch and you can feel everything dampen or stiffen immediately. It is the ability to drive 3 or 4 different cars by flipping one control, depending on conditions and style.

This may not satisfy the 1% enthusiast crowd whom BMW doesn't mind losing to Porsche or other brands. But BMW understands far better than most on this enthusiast-oriented board that the target demographic for the 5-series is one that uses the vehicle for a broad range of activities from the frequent mundane commute to the occasional sport driving. And the car is tailored to address that dynamic range of driving styles and conditions.

They also understand that BMW's are no longer driven primarily on autobahn or the smooth American freeways of yore. They are now driven in Indonesia, China, Brazil, Russia, India, and other global markets where road conditions, driving styles and vehicle use varies a lot. And importantly, where fuel prices and therefore fuel efficiency matters a LOT. This is not just an issue of US CAFE regulations. Environmental regulation and consumer preferences matter a lot to BMW owners around the world.

In this dynamic respect the F10 is a FAR better vehicle than the E60. You may miss the E60 on the 1% of days when you're on a track or a true high performance situation (and even that is arguable I think), but it will be an incomparable ride for the 99% range of driving conditions you will find yourself in. The Ultimate Driving Machine is no longer about a static, predictable, mechanical track feel but rather about addressing a tailored and dynamic range of driving. Traditionalists might not like the paradigm, but I think it's inane to dismiss it as a betrayal of BMW values.

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  #11  
Old 07-14-2011, 10:06 AM
schraderade schraderade is offline
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Deleted! I suck at using the iPad

Last edited by schraderade; 07-14-2011 at 10:56 AM.
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  #12  
Old 07-14-2011, 10:08 AM
schraderade schraderade is offline
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  #13  
Old 07-14-2011, 10:36 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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schraderade, does any of that really matter when the car isn't especially fun to drive? That's the real rub here not what is technically "better".
Fun to drive is a BMW core value.

And it's not only enthusiasts like myself or hard core racers like my dad that thinks so, my wife who is a competent driver but not really an enthusiast asked once to drive the F10 and never again while we were literally fighting every day on who was going to drive the E60. She is still a bit intimidated by the M3

Last edited by solstice; 07-14-2011 at 10:50 AM.
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  #14  
Old 07-14-2011, 10:47 AM
mikeriley mikeriley is offline
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Schrad- Wow. Really?

What BMW was long stood for is an excellent driving experience. NOT dynamic handling computer software. The F10 is not even close to the E60. Proof is in how Audi is smoking BMW in the A6 vs 5 series battles now. Have you watched that video of the comparison? The bmw handles and rolls like an eighties GM car. Not tight at all.
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  #15  
Old 07-14-2011, 11:16 AM
schraderade schraderade is offline
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Fun is plenty important. But what is fun sport driving for a 1% enthusiast is very different from what is fun sport driving for the 99% owner demographic. Guess who BMW is going to listen to

Mike, I've seen the videos. I think you are missing the point. Also, the audi is not smoking the F10...as others have pointed out the differences are marginal. The point is, BMW users spend less than 1% of their time on tracks so the videos are irrelevant (beyond their marketing vaue) for 99% of BMW driving. The car is designed to address the dynamic range of the 99% and not the 1%. This doesn't make it a Lexus. That 99% has different performance parameters and BMW has optimized for performance in that driving range. It means using electronics to create adjustable isolation so that drivers who don't want a bone jarring ride through the city can tune up isolation and dampness.

BMW is trying to give drivers a set of golf clubs instead of a single, well tuned 3 wood. That requires electronics. I think that makes it a better car. Plenty of options out there for drivers who want static road feel and mechanical handling, but I don't begrudge BMW for broadening it's engineering goals to include global preferences, environmental sensitivity, etc. The drive feels way better and better tailored to me than the E60.

There is nothing new with this discussion btw. Authors still argue vehemently that the typewriter provides better feel than a word processor. And the pen provides better feel than a typewriter. That's the enthusiast's prerogative, but in the real world it's pretty irrelevant! People vote with their pocketbooks.
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  #16  
Old 07-14-2011, 11:31 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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"But what is fun sport driving for a 1% enthusiast is very different from what is fun sport driving for the 99% owner demographic. Guess who BMW is going to listen to"

I think it's obvious who they listen to and that's why it's a betrayal to use your words. The fun to drive the classic bmw way is the enthusiasts way of a connected experience. The journalist in the program gave the example of when you hit a road irragularity the steering wheel kicks back and transmits the road surface. It's not the fun to drive as in being isolated from the road as you think 99% of the BMW drivers are looking for which I also think might be a bit of an exagguration.
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  #17  
Old 07-14-2011, 11:59 AM
schraderade schraderade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
"But what is fun sport driving for a 1% enthusiast is very different from what is fun sport driving for the 99% owner demographic. Guess who BMW is going to listen to"

I think it's obvious who they listen to and that's why it's a betrayal to use your words. The fun to drive the classic bmw way is the enthusiasts way of a connected experience. The journalist in the program gave the example of when you hit a road irragularity the steering wheel kicks back and transmits the road surface. It's not the fun to drive as in being isolated from the road as you think 99% of the BMW drivers are looking for which I also think might be a bit of an exagguration.
I miss the nice feel of the pushbuttons in my old Motorola cellphone. My iPhone gives me feedback, but it's an audible click which is 100% synthesized as opposed to the mechanical satisfaction of pushing that nice solid button on my old phone.
I used to be able to flip open a phone, dial a number, and make a call. Now I have to hit the phone icon first, then hit the dialpad icon, then dial the number. With fake feedback.

If I were a purist I'd say...the Motorola was way more fun to make calls with. It had more feel, more direct feedback.
But the iPhone is a WAY better phone, not because it's more fun to dial a number with, but because it has a much greater dynamic range of features.

Isolation for the sake of isolation does nobody good, and no automaker would spend the R&D dollars to make that happen. The point of electronification is to create dynamic range. BMW may not have that down pat yet, in the same way that the first generation iPhones did not work perfectly. But the paradigm shift from mechanical to electrical is a powerful one and it's one that has many precedents over many high-performance use cases (from fighter jets and the space shuttle to Formula 1). In almost every single one of these I bet there were old-schoolers who didn't like the new feel of electronic technology. But in all of them the resistance evaporated over time because it became clear that the electronic approach provided better dynamic performance than the mechanical approach. And that opens up a different horizons of fun.
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  #18  
Old 07-14-2011, 12:07 PM
Crmgr Crmgr is offline
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I'll give another positive for my 535XI M-Sport. I have close to 1,000 on it and the suspension and tires (yes, those wonderful LS2's) seem to be settling in. I drive 50 miles of freeway each day to work and this car is so different then my E60. I knew my E60 was working. Stealth is the word to best describe the F10. It's quiet and despectively fast. I also drive a lot of back country roads and the dynamic handling package gives it another personalty. The M-Sport in Carbon Black is also a head turner. So far I'm happy I made the purchase over the Audi A6 or A7. Now, if I we can only resolve the tire issue.......
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  #19  
Old 07-14-2011, 12:25 PM
highyo highyo is offline
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Originally Posted by bavariancraving View Post
Highyo, you seriously have the best car pics. Are you a photog?
Why thank you very much, my wife has a great camera and I love taking pics of the car, but it's all amateur stuff. Nikon d200 w a nikor lens. And I caught the car on a perfect rainy morning.

And I'm really shocked that solstice doesn't think the f 10 is fun. Really and truly.
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Last edited by highyo; 07-14-2011 at 12:28 PM.
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  #20  
Old 07-14-2011, 12:28 PM
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BobRBob BobRBob is offline
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I'm at almost 3,000 Km in my 528i and I am very comfortable with it now. It is quiet and fast and handles well. Moreover, it is fun to drive. My wife drove it for the first time yesterday. She had been afraid to because she said it was too big. Once behind the wheel she said it wasn't too big after all and she loves it.
So do I.
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  #21  
Old 07-14-2011, 12:40 PM
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markl53 markl53 is offline
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Originally Posted by highyo View Post
Why thank you very much, my wife has a great camera and I love taking pics of the car, but it's all amateur stuff. Nikon d200 w a nikor lens. And I caught the car on a perfect rainy morning.
Actually your wife's D200 is a very nice camera, not a consumer-grade DSLR. I have a D200 and D300. A lot of photography is not the equipment, but the "eye" of the person behind the camera. I agree, your shots of your car have been very interesting and way above average composition and technique actually. Also, the quality and capability of the lenses (and Nikon makes some very nice ones) is more important than the actual camera. Me? I'm an advanced amateur with a closet-full of top-grade Nikon gear. You might have a natural photog "eye" and not know it .
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  #22  
Old 07-14-2011, 01:44 PM
highyo highyo is offline
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Originally Posted by markl53 View Post
Actually your wife's D200 is a very nice camera, not a consumer-grade DSLR. I have a D200 and D300. A lot of photography is not the equipment, but the "eye" of the person behind the camera. I agree, your shots of your car have been very interesting and way above average composition and technique actually. Also, the quality and capability of the lenses (and Nikon makes some very nice ones) is more important than the actual camera. Me? I'm an advanced amateur with a closet-full of top-grade Nikon gear. You might have a natural photog "eye" and not know it .
well i guess that's a feather in my cap! thank you very much, i really do like taking pics of the car. maybe i should make it a career. are you listening road and track?
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  #23  
Old 07-14-2011, 02:01 PM
Sophisto Sophisto is offline
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Deleted! I suck at using the iPad
+1

would be nice to stick an Ipad on the steeringwheel though.
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  #24  
Old 07-14-2011, 02:19 PM
2001S15 2001S15 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schraderade View Post
Fun is plenty important. But what is fun sport driving for a 1% enthusiast is very different from what is fun sport driving for the 99% owner demographic. Guess who BMW is going to listen to

Mike, I've seen the videos. I think you are missing the point. Also, the audi is not smoking the F10...as others have pointed out the differences are marginal. The point is, BMW users spend less than 1% of their time on tracks so the videos are irrelevant (beyond their marketing vaue) for 99% of BMW driving. The car is designed to address the dynamic range of the 99% and not the 1%. This doesn't make it a Lexus. That 99% has different performance parameters and BMW has optimized for performance in that driving range. It means using electronics to create adjustable isolation so that drivers who don't want a bone jarring ride through the city can tune up isolation and dampness.

BMW is trying to give drivers a set of golf clubs instead of a single, well tuned 3 wood. That requires electronics. I think that makes it a better car. Plenty of options out there for drivers who want static road feel and mechanical handling, but I don't begrudge BMW for broadening it's engineering goals to include global preferences, environmental sensitivity, etc. The drive feels way better and better tailored to me than the E60.

There is nothing new with this discussion btw. Authors still argue vehemently that the typewriter provides better feel than a word processor. And the pen provides better feel than a typewriter. That's the enthusiast's prerogative, but in the real world it's pretty irrelevant! People vote with their pocketbooks.
+1000

This is the march of technology, plain and simple. Over time, the electronics will get better and will emulate the feel of old fashioned fun with higher fidelity. Or we will change our perspective of what fun is. To remind me of driving fun in its simplest form, I keep a Honda S2000 in my garage. It doesn't get driven a lot (in fact, the battery just died on me). I did drive it a few weeks ago, and when I did, I found it harsh and unyielding, so coddled am I in my synthetic-fun daily driver.
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  #25  
Old 07-14-2011, 03:02 PM
casper casper is offline
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Originally Posted by schraderade View Post

This may not satisfy the 1% enthusiast crowd whom BMW doesn't mind losing to Porsche or other brands. But BMW understands far better than most on this enthusiast-oriented board that the target demographic for the 5-series is one that uses the vehicle for a broad range of activities from the frequent mundane commute to the occasional sport driving. And the car is tailored to address that dynamic range of driving styles and conditions.


You have a point, but BMW was about 100% enthusiast crowd back when they had the 2002Tii, that % has been declining, but never to 1% , I figure BMW still had over 50% enthusiast crowd as customer base.
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