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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #26  
Old 08-03-2011, 10:42 PM
Nobrandfanboy Nobrandfanboy is offline
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Originally Posted by Brett0429 View Post
Drove Porsche again helpppppppppp
This response means you should buy the Porsche. Why would you buy the BMW and then regret later that you should of bought the Porsche just like the other poster. If you can afford it than just do it, it is obvious that is what you want. Money no object than make yourself happy rather than regretful.
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  #27  
Old 08-03-2011, 11:10 PM
Sophisto Sophisto is offline
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Drove Porsche again helpppppppppp
In any case do not sell the 911.
Might I suggest trying to make a testdrive in a M5.
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  #28  
Old 08-04-2011, 06:18 AM
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One other thing in favor of BMW to me.

If you drive by a cop at 90mph with your laser interceptors jamming the speed reading, the cop will either think he missed you and give you benefit of doubt, or he may know you're up to something and ticket you with a visual estimation if speed (or plain lie).

You are more likely to get benefit of doubt with a 5 series.
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  #29  
Old 08-04-2011, 06:34 AM
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Pretty much agree with Stealth.Pilot - though don't think I'd go with the fun comments.

If the money is not in the equation and you want a drivers car, it's the Pannmera.
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  #30  
Old 08-04-2011, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Nobrandfanboy View Post
This response means you should buy the Porsche. Why would you buy the BMW and then regret later that you should of bought the Porsche just like the other poster. If you can afford it than just do it, it is obvious that is what you want. Money no object than make yourself happy rather than regretful.
+1

When it's right, you know it in your bones. Clearly, it is the Porsche that is calling you. Don't buy a 70K + car and regret your choice.
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  #31  
Old 08-04-2011, 07:01 AM
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Pretty much agree with Stealth.Pilot - though don't think I'd go with the fun comments.

If the money is not in the equation and you want a drivers car, it's the Pannmera.
I find it more fun when power>chassis capability. That said I haven't driven the 550xi, but I think my comment on this point is more about 550i Dinan vs Pany 4S.

One of the problems with incredibly well engineered performance cars is that they are too planted. This is one of the reasons I've historically loved driving Maseratis.
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  #32  
Old 08-04-2011, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by TJPark01 View Post
Dream to drive, nightmare to look at. There's no sugarcoating it, the Panamera is hideous to look at.
Exactly what I thought of when this thread was made.

The Panamera is not nearly as attractive or refined in my opinion as the F10 5 Series.
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  #33  
Old 08-04-2011, 06:11 PM
leanofpeak leanofpeak is offline
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
I find it more fun when power>chassis capability. That said I haven't driven the 550xi, but I think my comment on this point is more about 550i Dinan vs Pany 4S.

One of the problems with incredibly well engineered performance cars is that they are too planted. This is one of the reasons I've historically loved driving Maseratis.
Do you think the 550i is sportier than the 550xi?

Both with dinan flash.

Which would you choose?
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  #34  
Old 08-04-2011, 06:19 PM
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Do you think the 550i is sportier than the 550xi?

Both with dinan flash.

Which would you choose?
This is one of those things that are a matter of taste.

550xi Dinan is faster because AWD gets the power down better.

But a rear wheel drive car can be driven in a more entertaining way. Speed vs. Sensation. This is why Ferrari has stuck to only RWD in it's mainstream sportscar line (355, 360, 430, 458).

Also if you get RWD you need better tires to ensure traction on starts. My car will be running Michelin Pilot Super Sports within days of arrival.
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Last edited by Stealth.Pilot; 08-04-2011 at 06:21 PM.
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  #35  
Old 08-04-2011, 06:49 PM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
This is one of those things that are a matter of taste.

550xi Dinan is faster because AWD gets the power down better.

But a rear wheel drive car can be driven in a more entertaining way. Speed vs. Sensation. This is why Ferrari has stuck to only RWD in it's mainstream sportscar line (355, 360, 430, 458).

Also if you get RWD you need better tires to ensure traction on starts. My car will be running Michelin Pilot Super Sports within days of arrival.
If you prefer RWD because of the driving characteristics why not wait a little while and get the F10 M5? That's what I would have done if I didn't need AWD (and prefer it as well). The F10 M5 is about the same price as the least expensive Panamera.
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Last edited by richschneid; 08-04-2011 at 06:51 PM. Reason: add price comparison to Porsche
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  #36  
Old 08-04-2011, 07:23 PM
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Quotes from InsideLine's review of the 4S below.

These quotes tell you why this 93K car (actually 113K as tested) is worth every penny if you have the means. As good as the F10 is, you just don't find quotes like these in F10 reviews. As I've said before, Porsche does demand you pony up if you want in, but if you do you get in at a higher level of engineering and excellence. That house in the Hamptons might cost more than one in most other neighborhoods - but the Porsche does deliver, its performance is in the major league. To quote the great Ferris Bueller himself - "It is so choice. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up."


"This car lit up our test track, hitting 60 mph in 4.6 seconds (4.3 with 1 foot of rollout like on a drag strip) and blitzing the quarter-mile in 12.9 seconds at 105 mph. This is astonishing acceleration considering the Panamera 4S weighs 4,237 pounds and packs only 400 hp. In this class, performance in the low 4s and high 12s has been the exclusive domain of the 500-plus-hp club, which includes the BMW M5, Cadillac CTS-V and Mercedes E63 AMG.

"The Panamera 4S also circles our skid pad at an incredible 0.96g, sprints through our slalom at 68.4 mph and stops from 60 mph in just 109 feet. With the exception of the Panamera's awesome skid pad number, which is simply light-years ahead of anything else on the planet with four doors, only the last BMW M5 we tested can match or come close to the Porsche's test numbers. This might give the impression that an M5 could keep up with the Panamera 4S on a mountain road. Well, it can't. And neither can any other four-door you can think of, including anything else with AMG or M on its deck lid."

"Our seat-of-the-pants impressions under the influence of this Porsche's incredible lateral grip tells us that the Panamera 4S will smoke them all on a real road out in the real world. And if it can't, then its big brother, the 500-hp Panamera Turbo, will."

"How can we be so sure? Because we've driven this Panamera 4S hard through the Santa Monica Mountains, a place even big, high-performance sedans face with dread. We ran our usual route, including Piuma, Stunt and Mulholland. We even ran it with wife and kids aboard to get the full sedan experience. Trust us: This is one of the fastest cars in the world when you're in a real-world setting."

"It's hard to believe we're saying this about a sedan that measures 195.6 inches overall and weighs more than 2 tons, but the facts are the facts. And the Panamera's balance (the weight distribution is 53.4 percent front/46.6 percent rear), massive 20-inch Michelin PS2s and all-wheel drive take its cornering speeds to levels once reserved for all-out supercars like the Audi R8, Nissan GT-R and Porsche 911 Turbo. Notes taken after the drive read, "No sedan out there will hang with it in the tight stuff."

"But that awesome speed isn't the Panamera's most impressive performance feature. Instead it's the ease in which it allows you to reach and sustain those speeds that gets you. This car is easier to drive at 9/10ths of its ability than a BMW M5 is to drive at 7/10ths of its ability. It's so composed, so not scary at extreme velocity, that backing off is always a matter of choice, not fear."

"But you won't, because the Panamera 4S is just too fun and too easy to drive way too fast. Instead you'll keep the pace up and enjoy the Porsche's crisp, intuitive steering action, its incredible brakes, its surprisingly good visibility (the big space between the mirror and the A-pillar is there for a reason) and the way its air suspension (even in the stiffest Sport Plus setting) soaks up midcorner bumps better than any car you've ever driven.

You'll keep the pace up just to marvel at the way the Panamera feels half its size and weight in the hills; only when you get it into a tight parking lot do you remember how big it really is."

"And it's just as good in the city. Down on the boulevard and the superslab, the Panamera 4S is a luxury sedan - the real deal. Oh, it's always sporty for sure, but it's never harsh, crude or crass."

"This car feels like a $113,000 car had better feel. Solid. Serious. And special."

"In the stop-and-go of the city, the Panamera's interior helps justify that price tag. There's simply no denying its artistic appeal, including its four well-shaped bucket seats, its abundance of real aluminum trim and the long console that runs the length of the interior. And the Panamera really does have a cavernous rear seat and cargo area."

"Sure, there are a few too many buttons in here to skip reading the owner's manual, but the Porsche's interior sets a new standard for design, fit and finish, and tactile excellence. And if you doubt these words you simply haven't felt the Panamera's shifter or steering wheel within your own two hands. This is as good as cars get, and we want a bronze bust of the guy who decided to keep the tach front and center on the instrument panel just as it is on a 911. Thank you, whoever you are."

"Porsche has left no details unchecked, and the result is a car that does it all better than most cars can do anything. It even rides well, which is an incredible engineering accomplishment considering its handling ability."
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Last edited by swajames; 08-04-2011 at 07:54 PM.
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  #37  
Old 08-04-2011, 07:51 PM
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If I had the means, and wanted to do it all with one car, the Panamera 4S would be it. I've driven it pretty hard, and even being pretty jaded by cars these days, I came away fully impressed.
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  #38  
Old 08-04-2011, 08:12 PM
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71. BMW M5 (F10) 7:55.00 156 '11 560 / 1870 BMW Testdriver
72. Porsche 996 Turbo 7:56.00 156 '00 420 / 1540 Sport Auto
73. Ferrari 360 CS 7:56.00 156 '03 425 / 1280 sport auto 02/2004
74. Ferrari California GT 7:56.00 156 '09 460 / 1787
75. Porsche Panamera Sport Chrono Turbo 7:56.00 156 '09 500 / 1974 Walter Roehrl (AutoB
76. Porsche Panamera Turbo 7:56.00 156 '09 500 / 1870 Walter Röhrl

http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

Imo, usual Insideline's prejudice. Interesting which will perform better in the real world (vs Insideline's "pants"), the 550xi, or the P 4S with lower specs than the P turbo.

Last edited by bm323; 08-04-2011 at 08:23 PM.
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  #39  
Old 08-04-2011, 08:20 PM
swajames swajames is online now
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Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
71. BMW M5 (F10) 7:55.00 156 '11 560 / 1870 BMW Testdriver
72. Porsche 996 Turbo 7:56.00 156 '00 420 / 1540 Sport Auto
73. Ferrari 360 CS 7:56.00 156 '03 425 / 1280 sport auto 02/2004
74. Ferrari California GT 7:56.00 156 '09 460 / 1787
75. Porsche Panamera Sport Chrono Turbo 7:56.00 156 '09 500 / 1974 Walter Roehrl (AutoB
76. Porsche Panamera Turbo 7:56.00 156 '09 500 / 1870 Walter Röhrl

http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

Imo, usual Insideline's prejudice. Interesting which will perform better in the real world (vs Insideline's "pants"), the 550i, or the P 4S with lower specs than the P turbo.
Well, this thread is about the 4S and how it compares to the 550. The 550 is a great car, but it's pretty clear that the 4S is quicker than the 550, and that it also handles, corners and stops much better too. That's to be expected, the 4S is quite a bit more expensive than the 550 and it is built and engineered to a higher standard.

Not sure what the connection is with the as yet unreleased F10 M5's Nurburgring time, but let's go with the flow. The reported F10 M5 time is unverified, it's attributed to a pre-production car, and it's never been confirmed by BMW. It remains essentially an internet rumor, and most of the Nurburgring time databases do record it is as such. I'm interested in seeing what the F10 M5 can do too, but this 7:55 time is still speculation.

The Panamera Turbo time remains the fastest recorded time for a production sedan at 7:56. By comparison the E60 M5 and E63 M6 were both around 8:15.

On a related note, there hasn't been a time for the new Panamera Turbo S but it will clearly be lower than the Panamera Turbo and also below 7:55. Even if the 7:55 time for the F10 M5 is verified, it's probable that the Turbo S will undercut it.
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Last edited by swajames; 08-04-2011 at 08:32 PM.
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  #40  
Old 08-04-2011, 08:27 PM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
Well, this thread is about the 4S,
Yes, the 4S is inferior to the turbo model. From your post, I gather then that all the lap times are pure speculation.
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  #41  
Old 08-04-2011, 08:39 PM
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M5 and 4S are comparable in price, the Turbo is quite a bit more. So if the M5 is beating the Turbo on the ring, then it seems to offer the best price-performance point in the market.

Of course the M5 won't hit our shores till April.
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  #42  
Old 08-04-2011, 08:41 PM
swajames swajames is online now
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Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
Yes, the 4S is inferior to the turbo model. From your post, I gather then that all the lap times are pure speculation.
Well, the F10 M5 time is indeed speculation, and it's actually been taken off the Wikipedia page that records Nurburgring times - probably as it wasn't possible to verify it. I do expect the F10 M5 will be very quick, and I look forward to seeing something with a little more provenance. It's possible that Porsche is holding back on the Turbo S time for that reason. These things matter to some.

And it's hardly a surprise that the 4S is inferior to the Turbo, but that wasn't the topic of the thread, which compares the 550 to the 4S!
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  #43  
Old 08-04-2011, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
M5 and 4S are comparable in price, the Turbo is quite a bit more. So if the M5 is beating the Turbo on the ring, then it seems to offer the best price-performance point in the market.

Of course the M5 won't hit our shores till April.
Comparable on price, but not in status. You're comparing the mid range Panamera to the highest end F10. As I said before, you can't swim in the deeper end of the Panamera gene pool for F10 money. If you want in, you have to have the means to pay to play. I'm back to the house in the Hamptons analogy. If you want to one-up the Porsche, you can do that too, but again you're going to have to pay to play and you'd need to be looking at say the AM Rapide or thereabouts.

Mind you, if we're using price as the only basis for comparison you can already get more pace for less. A current 997 Carrera S is already quicker than the F10 M5's speculative time and the Panamera Turbo's supposed actual time around the Nurburgring, as is the GT-R by an even bigger margin.
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  #44  
Old 08-04-2011, 08:49 PM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
Well, the F10 M5 time is indeed speculation, and it's actually been taken off the Wikipedia page that records Nurburgring times - probably as it is wasn't possible to verify it.
Which Wikipedia page? Not this I presume http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...eife_lap_times

Last edited by bm323; 08-04-2011 at 08:50 PM.
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  #45  
Old 08-04-2011, 08:58 PM
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The 550 is a great car, but it's pretty clear that the 4S is quicker than the 550
Not clear at all if you are talking about 550xi. Official numbers are:
550xi: 4.8s (0-100kmh)
4S: 4.8s (0-60 mph), 4.6 sec. with Sport Chrono Package Plus.
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  #46  
Old 08-04-2011, 09:07 PM
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Not clear at all if you are talking about 550xi. Official numbers are:
550xi: 4.8s (0-100kmh)
4S: 4.8s (0-60 mph), 4.6 sec. with Sport Chrono Package Plus.
Stock for stock, the 4S is more likely to be quicker, particularly when you bring cornering and braking into the mix. Speed isn't only about the straight line, and the 550xi can't corner or brake as well as the 4S. The Porsche also isn't speed limited. You can, of course, more easily mod the 550 with say the Dinan software which will definitely aid straight line speed but do nothing for handling, cornering and braking. There's also the question of how well a modified 550xi will be able to take advantage of the additional power unleashed by the Dinan tune. The PDK transmission in the 4S is a real performance transmission, and with the Sport Chrono the launch control delivers repeated flawless launches coupled with the ability to truly lay down the power effectively. Again, if you have the ability to pony up the price of entry - about 13K - you can if you wish also add PDCC and PTVV torque vectoring and also the ceramic composite brakes.

BMW and Porsche do have something in common in that their cars often perform slightly better than their official specifications, but more often than not it is Porsche that tends to sandbag to a greater degree. There are any number of tests that bear this out.
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Last edited by swajames; 08-04-2011 at 09:14 PM.
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  #47  
Old 08-04-2011, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
Stock for stock, the 4S is more likely to be quicker, particularly when you bring cornering and braking into the mix. Speed isn't only about the straight line, and the 550xi can't corner or brake as well as the 4S. The Porsche also isn't speed limited. You can, of course, more easily mod the 550 with say the Dinan software which will aid straight line speed but do nothing for handling, cornering and braking.

BMW and Porsche do have something in common in that their cars often perform slightly better than their official specifications, but more often than not it is Porsche that tends to sandbag to a greater degree. There are any number of tests that bear this out.
Well, it's certainly then not "pretty clear" at all that the 4S is quicker than the 550xi.

In any event, the P 4S and 550xi are very different cars, inside and out. TS shouldn't have a problem deciding after further consideration of what he wants in a car
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  #48  
Old 08-04-2011, 09:18 PM
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In any event, the P 4S and 550xi are very different cars, inside and out. TS shouldn't have a problem deciding after further consideration of what he wants in a car

You have that right. In fairness, I doubt these two cars really get cross shopped all that often. I think the 550 is a fantastic car and a tremendous value, but for me the Porsche delivers more (as it should, given the higher cost). Others may disagree, we all vote with our wallets. Porsche is really aiming the Panamera at buyers in the 7 Series and above segment, probably not so much the 5. That the higher end Fives and the lower to mid range Panameras share some price similarity probably isn't by design on the part of either manufacturer.

As for the pretty clear comment, take a look at the cornering speeds and braking numbers. The Panamera corners harder, brakes harder and it can can do so repeatedly as the brakes won't fade. The notion of a car being fast when it can essentially only do it in a straight line doesn't really cut it any more.
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Last edited by swajames; 08-04-2011 at 09:29 PM.
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  #49  
Old 08-04-2011, 10:09 PM
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You have that right. In fairness, I doubt these two cars really get cross shopped all that often. I think the 550 is a fantastic car and a tremendous value, but for me the Porsche delivers more (as it should, given the higher cost). Others may disagree, we all vote with our wallets. Porsche is really aiming the Panamera at buyers in the 7 Series and above segment, probably not so much the 5. That the higher end Fives and the lower to mid range Panameras share some price similarity probably isn't by design on the part of either manufacturer.

As for the pretty clear comment, take a look at the cornering speeds and braking numbers. The Panamera corners harder, brakes harder and it can can do so repeatedly as the brakes won't fade. The notion of a car being fast when it can essentially only do it in a straight line doesn't really cut it any more.
You're right. The 4S vs 550 comparison is rarely made given the 20k price difference.

I think most people cross shop based on price, so the 550xi if anything might get cross shopped with the V6 Panamera. That choice would be a stark one of performance vs. prestige.
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Old 08-05-2011, 07:29 AM
chelseafc chelseafc is offline
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It's great that reviews sing the Panamera's praises on handling and interior, but how much weight do you put on exterior design? The Panamera is hideous. I also loved that Top Gear episode. It gets even worse for the Porsche when it's lined up against the magnificent Aston Martin.
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