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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #451  
Old 07-04-2011, 04:23 PM
mffalrrel mffalrrel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
BBA $185 on ebay, with free shipping both ways.
Thanks for the heads-up. BBA's website lists the Bosch 5.7 module @ $275 for repair.
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  #452  
Old 07-04-2011, 08:24 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
Thanks for the heads-up. BBA's website lists the Bosch 5.7 module @ $275 for repair.
Come to think of it, I think my ATE price was also an Ebay price.

What these rebuilders do is try to get as much money out of you as possible to fix the steel wire back to the gold bondpad. Since their costs is presumably far below the price of the module repair, they can afford to have drastically varying prices.

Those who wish to go to the web site, pay the higher price. Those who want a better deal, go to Ebay. Same guy fixes the wire (as far as I know).

Again, if you're worried about the diagnosis, just pop the top, take a look (and a few pictures for our vicarious pleasure); and then tape it back up and ship it off to the rebuilders to reattach the steel wire to the gold bondpad.

Keep us informed so that the next guy stands on your shoulders.
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Last edited by bluebee; 07-05-2011 at 04:38 PM.
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  #453  
Old 07-05-2011, 02:19 PM
mffalrrel mffalrrel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Come to think of it, I think my ATE price was also an Ebay price.

What these rebuilders do is try to get as much money out of you as possible to fix the steel wire back to the gold bondpad. Since their costs is presumably far below the price of the module repair, they can afford to have drastically varying prices.

Those who wish to go to the web site, pay the higher price. Those who want a better deal, go to Ebay. Same guy fixes the wire (as far as I know).

Again, if you're worried about the diagnosis, just pop the top, take a look (and a few pictures for our vicarious pleasure); and then tape it back up and ship it off to the rebuilders to reattach the steel wire to the gold bondpad.

Keep us informed so that the next guy stands on your shoulders.

UPDATE:

I did a hot/cold test on the ABS CU. Normally, the three lights are off when the engine is cold, and once it gets hot in the engine compartment, all three lights come on.

I started the engine when it was cold, no lights were on, so I turned the engine off. I gently got the ABS CU warm/hot with a hair dryer for about a min., started the car and all three lights were on.

Turned the engine off, then I cooled down the ABS CU with a plastic bag of crushed ice wrapped in a towel for about 3 minutes. Started the car, and the three lights were off.

So, it seems that the problem is heat related. I almost opened the unit, but chickened-out(I'm too old and can't see very well ) and placed an order with BBA for repair.

I will give an update once I receive my ABS CU back from BBA.

Thanks for your help!
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  #454  
Old 07-12-2011, 05:45 PM
mffalrrel mffalrrel is offline
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Hi all,

I just received the repaired ABS CU from BBA. I followed their instructions and disconnected the battery before installing.

I started the car, and after about 5-10 min. all three lights came on again. Do I need to clear the faults, or do I have another issue? This was the same symptom that I had before.

BBA didn't tell me what they did, however, a note came with the ABS CU mentioning about disconnecting the battery and how sometimes your scanner can't detect a bad wheel speed sensor beacuse of the sample rate of the scanner.

When I measured the wheel sensors, I did not get the same results as others. I did not get a voltage drop across all four sensors, and the resistance was 10 X more than others here. I think I read approx. 24M ohms across all four sensors.

Also, I did not have any lights before I replaced the front pads and rotors. The lights came on right after the brake job. I doubled checked the left wheel sensor to make sure it was plugged in correctly, as I had to open the enclosure to change the brake wear sensor.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks!


UPDATE:

I cycled the engine on/off a few times. Now, the lights are off! I took a 25 mi. drive and lights stayed off. Maybe the ECU needed to be cycled a few times to clear the faults? The ABS and traction control are now working.

I hope the lights stay off.

Last edited by mffalrrel; 07-12-2011 at 07:49 PM.
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  #455  
Old 07-12-2011, 11:34 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
I hope the lights stay off.
Glad the trifecta went off.

Just so you know, you probably still have a 'stored code' for P0500 (which apparently happens when you remove the ABS control module to ship it off to BBA).

So, you'll fail inspection if you don't know about it (ask me how I know).

BTW, so others get an idea, how much did you end up paying?
- Shipping?
- Fixing?

Note: I'm re-using this screenshot so ignore the question in blue.
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  #456  
Old 07-13-2011, 05:59 AM
mffalrrel mffalrrel is offline
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Thanks Bluebee for all your help! I hope the lights stay off.

BBA was great! I purchased the repair service on eBay for $185 which included free shipping both ways. The auction that stated a 1-6 day UPS ground, but they gave me 2 day UPS air.

So, I won the bid (buy now) last Tuesday, shipped the ABS CU on Wednesday, and the ABS CU arrived on my doorstep the following Tuesday.

I am going to call them today to see if I can find out what they repaired.

I'll keep everyone posted.




Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Glad the trifecta went off.

Just so you know, you probably still have a 'stored code' for P0500 (which apparently happens when you remove the ABS control module to ship it off to BBA).

So, you'll fail inspection if you don't know about it (ask me how I know).

BTW, so others get an idea, how much did you end up paying?
- Shipping?
- Fixing?

Note: I'm re-using this screenshot so ignore the question in blue.
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  #457  
Old 07-13-2011, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
I am going to call them today to see if I can find out what they repaired
Please do.

I wish EVERYONE would do this type of query & report back.

I, for one, called ATE while my unit was still on the bench. I asked a bunch of questions about what they were doing. My distinct impression (somewhere in this thread) was they were lying to me.

They said, IIRC, they replace electrical components, capacitors, resistors, diodes, etc.

But, now that I know what the circuit board looks like, I think they were lying through their teeth. I suspect 'all' they do is:

a) Test
b) Repair the steel wire lifted off it's gold bond pad
c) Test

So, please do ask them (and I ask EVERYONE to ask them). Over time, we might get to the real answer.
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  #458  
Old 07-13-2011, 09:35 AM
mffalrrel mffalrrel is offline
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I called BBA this morning and this is what they told me:

1. My ABS ECU had significant damage.

2. Numerous connections on the PCB were broken and not making a good electrical contact. They couldn't tell me if it was the silver or copper wires.

3. A bad IC (integrated circuit chip).

Also, the tech told me that I would have to start/stop the engine several times, and I drive the car for several miles before the three lights would go out. This is because it takes awhile for the ECU to update new data and clear the prior faults.

This is exactly how my symptoms were after I installed the ABS ECU.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Please do.

I wish EVERYONE would do this type of query & report back.

I, for one, called ATE while my unit was still on the bench. I asked a bunch of questions about what they were doing. My distinct impression (somewhere in this thread) was they were lying to me.

They said, IIRC, they replace electrical components, capacitors, resistors, diodes, etc.

But, now that I know what the circuit board looks like, I think they were lying through their teeth. I suspect 'all' they do is:

a) Test
b) Repair the steel wire lifted off it's gold bond pad
c) Test

So, please do ask them (and I ask EVERYONE to ask them). Over time, we might get to the real answer.
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  #459  
Old 07-30-2011, 11:39 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
Numerous connections on the PCB were broken and not making a good electrical contact.
Personally, I doubt it was 'numerous' (based on anecdotal evidence here). I suspect it was a single steel wire lifted off its gold bondpad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
They couldn't tell me if it was the silver or copper wires.
I suspect that's because they were making it up on the fly and you could have re-opened the ABS control module to doublecheck their lies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
A bad IC (integrated circuit chip).
While that may have been the case, if they 'fixed' it for you, I highly doubt they resoldered that 'bad ic' as people here who know more than I do have stated it's extremely difficult.

Personally, if they told me that, I would have told them to send it back with the cover unglued and I would doublecheck them as I should be able to see whether there's a new IC chip in there or not.

Personally, just as I thought ATE was lying to me through their teeth on the phone when I asked the same questions, I suspect they're lying to you.

Of course, the only way to check is to open it back up and look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mffalrrel View Post
I drive the car for several miles before the three lights would go out.
And, even then, you could have a 'hidden' (i.e., non SES) P0500 bad wheel speed sensor code which, if you go for inspection too soon after the repair, will fail you. Ask me how I know.

BTW, there is an interesting reputed SEVENTH TEST of the wheel speed sensors described over here today. Others who know more about this than I do are requested to look at that reputed test and let us know if it's worth including here for others to benefit:
- E39 (1997 - 2003) > DSC BRAKE & ABS lights lit on dashboard. HELP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick99Si View Post
I did read the thread BlueBee, a few times in fact (very helpful!), but I'm trying my hardest to avoid dealing with the ABS module itself until I can be 100% sure it's the case. For now, it's either RF sensor, related wiring, or module.

FWIW, we tested the speed sensor by spinning the wheel and it registered something on the order of 15-25km/h.

EDIT- the scan tool used was the Autologic standalone (costs as much as two of my 540i/6 Sport) and the problem reported was something to the effect of "unreliable reading from right front speed sensor." I have a printout in the car that I can post later.
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  #460  
Old 07-30-2011, 11:43 PM
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For the crosslinked record, today, a user asked for a list of BMW fault codes related to ABS control module and wheel speed sensor malfunctions:
- E39 (1997 - 2003) > Reading ABS DSC fault codes

For the record, most fault codes reported for this problem 'seem' to be erroneous, not because of any fault per se in the expensive BMW scan tools - but - because (as Bill 540iman has often stated) - of a fault in the way they're hooked up:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee
BMW_30-PAGE_DSC_COMPONENTS.PDF

BMW ABS/ASC Bosch 5.7 Table of error codes:
5 Right Rear Wheel Speed Sensor
6 Right Front Wheel Speed Sensor
7 Front Left Wheel Speed Sensor
14 Solenoid Valve Relay (check fuses 17 & 33)
15 Pressure Sensor/Pump Error
21 Module Memory Failure - ABS/ASC module is faulty
23 Incorrect Coding - ABS/ASC module is faulty
24 Wrong Impulse
30 Left Rear Wheel Speed Sensor
31 Open Right Rear Wheel Speed Sensor
32 Open Right Front Wheel Speed Sensor
33 Open Left Front Wheel Speed Sensor
50 Right Front Outlet Valve - ABS/ASC module is faulty
51 Left Rear Outlet Valve - ABS/ASC module is faulty
54 Left Front Inlet Valve - ABS/ASC module is faulty
55 ASC Intake Valve - ABS/ASC module is faulty
58 Gear Box Control Unit (CAN bus error)
59 DMER1 (CAN bus error)
61 Steering Angle Sensor Identification
66 Speed Sensor Voltage Supply
67 Intermittent Interference
75 Engine Speed Fault from DME
81 Pressure Sensor
82 Open Yaw Rate Sensor
86 ASC Cut-off Valve Rear Axle
88 Precharge Pump
89 Low Voltage
90 Temporary System Deactivation
94 DDE Fault/Yaw rate sensor
97 Steering Angle Sensor
10 Brake Light Switch
108 SN Control
112 Open CAN to Instrument Cluster
114 Pressure Sensor Offset
117 Brake Light Switch Failure
118 DME Status-Internal Error
Quote:
Originally Posted by 540iman
The main point is that any diagnostic equipment that does not test by going between the sensors and the module simply can not definitively see a bad module from a bad sensor. It is as simple as stating that a blood pressure cuff can not diagnose whether high blood pressure reading at a cuff is because of a faulty heart or a clotted artery. You must somehow get readings I suspect (certainly not a Dr.!) between the heart valves or whatever you do to isolate. If your Indy or dealer hooks up to your OBDII port or your 20 pin and definitively tells you that you have a bad wheel speed sensor, that person is full of doo-doo. Only thing you can diagnose correctly 100% of the time from either of these two points is a bad module due to a communication error or similar. They can not tell a bad input (sensor) from a bad module at these test points.

Last edited by bluebee; 07-30-2011 at 11:50 PM.
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  #461  
Old 08-07-2011, 12:50 PM
jeffstri jeffstri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
It won't. I'm getting tired of referring why. If you read this thread, and particularly tons of 540iman's responses, you'll see why the best diagnostic tool isn't the fancy schmancy tool.

But, nothing wrong with Carsoft - it's a lot of fun to make the E39 windows go up and down from your laptop.



At the risk of repeating what has been repeated a thousand times before, it's almost always one (and only one) of the wheel speed sensors ... or ... the steel wire lifted off its gold bondpad inside the ABS control module.



I wasn't aware that you could download Carsoft; but I suppose a torrent exists somewhere of almost everything.



Again, if I understand Bill correctly, all these fancy schmancy tools won't help for the classic ABS BRAKE DSC trifecta. Of course, they are very useful for plenty of other things ... so no harm done if you get them ... but ... trifecta is different apparently than most problems.

I really am just repeating what has been said umpteen times in this thread, so, I'll leave it at this advice:

- If you're trying to diagnose the trifecta, then spend your money on a good digital multimeter and test leads instead of the fancy schmancy diagnostic tools.

- If you can't get a good reading on multiple wheel speed sensors, then usually it's something wrong with your technique or your multimeter. Time and time again this has shown itself to be the case.

- When the sensors finally test good, almost everyone has been successful with the reattachment of the steel wire on the gold bondpad or a new/used ABS control module that has the steel wire still attached to the gold bondpad.

Boiled down, there's not much more to it than that (in most cases).

Of course, it 'could' be any one of about 20 sensors ... but most of the time, it's not.
Bluebee,

I admire your intentions and diligence, but unfortunately you are archiving as much tribal ignorance as tribal knowledge. It's difficult for me to understand why you dismiss what you call "fancy schmancy diagnostic tools," having never used them yourself and obviously knowing nothing about them. You do understand Bill correctly, but unfortunately he doesn't know what he's talking about. It's clear that the only "fancy schmancy diagnostic tool" he has ever used is Carsoft, and almost certainly the original version 6.5, which is essentially just a fault code reader. Sure, it's important to have a good digital multimeter but it's ridiculous to assert that that's all you need, or that voltmeter measurements should be the starting point for diagnosing the ABS trifecta. The fault codes are not wrong, useless, or bogus. The problem is your unrealistic expectation that the codes alone should tell you exactly what to replace. That's not true about the ABS system or any of the other approximately 20 modules in your BMW.

"Fancy schmancy diagnostic tools" are not just expensive code readers. In the first place, they don't have to be expensive. I use a variety of "fancy schmancy" BMW diagnostic tools (INPA, DIS/GT1, SSS/Progman, NCS Expert, and WinKFP), total cost less than $50, most of which went for a set of cables and computer interface. All the software is available free. I use an old desktop computer with Windows XP. In the second place, they do much, much more than just read codes.

Using DIS to guide my diagnosis and measure brake line pressure directly, rather than rely on some speculative notion about what the voltage output from the pressure sensor should be, I was able to show that my ABS trfecta and pressure sensor faults were due to a bad ground connection within the DSC module. I'm glad I didn't waste time checking wheel sensors with a voltmeter as the first step. And I didn't throw money at any part until, with the aid of my "fancy schmancy diagnostic tools," I knew exactly what was wrong.

With regard to BMW wheel sensors, they are "active" sensors. Unlike passive sensors, they contain circuitry that modifies and converts the Hall effect AC signal into a DC square wave output. This internal circuit is not just a simple diode that can be tested by measuring resistance or doing a diode test - a sensor testing "good" in this way does not prove that the sensor output to the DSC module is normal. You need to actually measure the sensor output, which should be a 0.75 V/2.5 V square wave.

You don't have to troll the web for some torrent to find these "fancy schmancy diagnostic tools." They are available for free here and also here: (ftp://94.212.182.18/). All you need to know to install and use these programs is easily found on the Bimmerforums Diagnostic Software forum. If you're interested in finding out for yourself what these tools can do I'll be happy to give you some more specific guidance for obtaining the software and setting it up.

Last edited by jeffstri; 08-10-2011 at 06:17 PM.
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  #462  
Old 08-07-2011, 02:19 PM
jeffstri jeffstri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
For the crosslinked record, today, a user asked for a list of BMW fault codes related to ABS control module and wheel speed sensor malfunctions:
- E39 (1997 - 2003) > Reading ABS DSC fault codes

For the record, most fault codes reported for this problem 'seem' to be erroneous, not because of any fault per se in the expensive BMW scan tools - but - because (as Bill 540iman has often stated) - of a fault in the way they're hooked up:


The fault codes that may occur in the DSC or any other control module are a fixed set. The set is determined by the module, not the particular scan tool design. All scan tools, regardless of price, access the same fault codes in the same way, except perhaps for the original Carsoft version 6.5 which doesn't seem pick up all ABS codes correctly. However, different scan tools may use different language for the same code. Thus, as posted by Quick99Si, the Autologic standalone reports "unreliable reading from right front speed sensor" while DIS may say "right front wheel sensor, signal absent or implausible."

Fault codes for the ABS system are stored in the DSC module, and represent abnormal communications with the various sensors/components of the ABS system. Thus a wheel sensor code means that the DSC module sees an absent or or implausible wheel sensor signal.

The problem is not as Bill says, "the way they're hooked up," but the fact that something in the circuit that processes the wheel sensor signal within the DSC module (such as a break in the internal wiring, or a burned out resistor, etc) will appear the same to the DSC module as an abnormal signal originating in the wheel sensor or in the wiring between the sensor and the module.

The same type of thing can happen with any of 20 or so other control modules, but unfortunately internal problems in the DSC module seem to be far more common than in the other control module.

BTW, your ABS fault code list, which appears all over the internet, has errors and omissions: "10 Brake Light Switch" should be 105, and "115 Pressure Sensor Interface" is missing. I only know about these because I've had them both. I suspect there are other codes missing from the list. But there's no need for a separate fault code list if you use the "fancy schmancy" BMW software.

Last edited by jeffstri; 08-07-2011 at 02:34 PM.
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  #463  
Old 08-07-2011, 02:47 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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< warning > Long response! :) < / warning >

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
It's difficult for me to understand why you dismiss what you call "fancy schmancy diagnostic tools,"
Hi Jeff,

I value your input. I really do (e.g., I'll update our fault code listing with your new information).

But, if you're going to defend the 'fancy schmancy' tools, all you need to do is provide the procedure for a test to isolate, reliably and repeatedly, the ABS control module (when the steel wire lifts off the gold bondpad).

If a 'fancy schmancy' tool can diagnose that properly - you'd be my (new) hero!
(Right now, Bill is my current hero as he was the first to propose the simple DMM test which has proven reliable & repeatable in pinpointing bad wheel speed sensors.)

Certainly I would be happy to report yet another method of trifecta diagnostics - especially one that diagnoses the holy grail - which is when the ABS control module is the culprit!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
... having never used them yourself
It's true, of the fancy schmancy tools, I've only used Carsoft 6.5, so far, to no avail.

If Carsoft 6.5 is one of the 'fancy schmancy' tools, it was nearly useless for ABS diagnostics as, much to my chagrin, it gave lousy readings as noted early on in this thread (and it was also useless for changing the setting for the automatic locks - but - that - as we know - is resolved in later commercial versions of Carsoft).
- Disabling the automatic door locks

However, I do admit I haven't used any 'other' of the fancy schmancy tools (although, I have them quite painfully downloaded, the amount of effort to get them to work on a computer that will accept the right cables - has been too much effort for me to date).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
You do understand Bill correctly, but unfortunately he doesn't know what he's talking about.
I'm all ears.

Mostly, all I do is collect what others say - and - I throw away the obvious chaff - then - I simply assume (if it makes sense) that the rest is edible wheat!

I also run as many tests as I can (feasibly).

If you (or anyone) can 'show' a diagnostic test that pinpoints (accurately, repeatedly, & reliably) a bad ABS control module, we'd all benefit!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
Carsoft ... original version 6.5 ... is essentially just a fault code reader.
Now you're talkin' some sense!

For now, let's both agree that Carsoft 6.5 stinks for this purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
good digital multimeter but it's ridiculous to assert that that's all you need, or that voltmeter measurements should be the starting point for diagnosing the ABS trifecta.
Again. I, for one, will be HAPPY to find yet another test that works.

At the moment, we have six (or was it seven?) known good tests for the wheel speed sensors, for example.

Unfortunately, we have only one reliable method of testing the ABS control module, and unfortunately, that method requires opening the thing up and then using a magnetized needle to probe the wires.

If you (or anyone) has a BETTER reliable test of the ABS control module, we'd all be all ears!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
The fault codes are not wrong, useless, or bogus.
I do realize that fault codes don't 'pinpoint' the problem so much as tell you which sensor is out of range.

I'm not a proponent of the common misconception that a fault code on sensor X means to replace sensor X. I do realize that a fault code on sensor X simply means something about sensor X's input/output/power is out of range.

However, we are dealing with a complex computer (i.e., the ABS control module), which can easily implicate about 20 different innervated sensors - even though the actual problem is generally INSIDE the ABS control module itself (based on abundant anecdotal evidence).

The difference between you and me is that I would consider a reading that any one of those 20 sensors is out of range as a 'bogus' reading.

Sure, the sensor input or output or power is out of range from the CPU's standpoint - but - that reading does 'almost' nothing to help you pinpoint the problem.

If, for example, you could show me a reading that DID pinpoint the problem (which we know, in hindsight, is most often either the wheel speed sensors or the steel wire lifted off the gold bondpad inside the ABS control module), THEN, I'd be HAPPY to add that diagnnostic test.

Why wouldn't we want a BETTER diagnostic test?
(Note: That's the whole point of this thread!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
The problem is your unrealistic expectation that the codes alone should tell you exactly what to replace. That's not true about the ABS system or any of the other approximately 20 modules in your BMW.
OK. Now you hit a sore spot.

Do I 'look' like someone who thinks that a fault code indicates the actual problem? Have I ever said that in any of my ten thousand posts?

Let's be clear here. This is a diagnostic thread. Pure and simple. The whole point of this thread is, as the title says, DIAGNOSTIC PROCEDURES (as parts location was a trivial problem long ago resolved).

If you, or anyone else, has better diagnostic procedures that pinpoints a bad ABS control module, then we are all ears.

Just tell us.

What is that diagnostic procedure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
All the software is available free ... they do much, much more than just read codes
I'm aware of the software.

In fact, I've read and posted in a variety of fancy-schmancy tools' threads:
- Description of Carsoft, GT1, INPA, DIS, EDIABAS, & Peake (1) & which can modify the auto-lock car door feature (1) & what does Carsoft do anyway (1) (2) (3) (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
Using DIS to guide my diagnosis and measure brake line pressure directly ... I was able to show that my ABS trfecta and pressure sensor faults were due to a bad ground connection within the DSC module.
Please note post #67 of this thread which shows I originally attempted to test my brake pressure sensor (based on 'bogus readings from Carsoft 6.5).



I read what the inputs were, what the outputs were, how it was wired, where the wires went, how to make a test jig, what readings to expect under brake pedal pressure, etc.



In the end, I didn't test the sensor (too much effort for no gain whatsoever); and, I was vindicated in my approach.

Of course, had the indicated brake pressure sensor actually been the culprit, my efforts would not have culminated with rebuilding the ABS control module - and they would probably have included those tests that we came up with to test the brake pressure sensor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
I'm glad I didn't waste time checking wheel sensors with a voltmeter as the first step.
You do realize that it takes about ten or fifteen minutes to check all four wheel speed sensors with a good DMM; and, that it takes quite a few hours to get the fancy schmancy test tools set up?

Not to mention the fact that I can't FIND a working computer with a serial port anywhere in my garage (while a good DMM is right there, in my toolbox - in good working order).

In addition, if you, or anyone, can provide a bona fide test procedure that pinpoints the ABS control module or the wheel speed sensors accurately - of course we'd be all ears!

Why wouldn't we want this 'accurate' test procedure?

More to your point ... do I 'look like someone who would dismiss a bona-fide test procedure that would accurately pinpoint a bad ABS control module?

The fact that nobody has proposed it (coupled with the fact that we KNOW almost all the problems are resolved by replacing an errant wheel speed sensor or the ABS control module) ... is worrisome. At least it is to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
And I didn't throw money at any part until,
I realize I'm taking this too personally, but, do I 'look like someone who just throws parts at this problem?

Please realize that it took me something like a year to 'conclude' that I needed to send my ABS control module out for repair, simply because we do not (to date) have any accurate reliable nor repeatable test that will for sure pinpoint a bad ABS control module!

If you know of such a test, you will be the first to propose one (and, as I said, my new hero!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
... until, with the aid of my "fancy schmancy diagnostic tools," I knew exactly what was wrong.
In 'your' case, the problem was, as you said, the rare occurrence of a bad brake pressure sensor.

Most people, we know, have a different problem.

For most people (including me), the problem is either a bad wheel speed sensor or the steel wire lifted off the gold bond pad.

For the purpose of this thread, any test which can pinpoint either of those two cases, is the paramount test of interest.

Of course, if any other of the 20-odd ABS-related sensors are bad, we can devise a test for each of those sensors (as I attempted when Carsoft 6.5 incorrectly implicated my brake pressure sensor).

But that's not the main point. The main point is that we already KNOW that the most common (by far) problem is either a bad wheel speed sensor or a bad ABS control module.

Any test that can accurately, reliably, and repeatedly point to the wheel speed sensor isn't really important (because we ALREADY have an inexpensive reliable test for that).

But, if you (or anyone else) has a reliable method if implicating the ABS control module, of course we'd be all ears.

That's what the entire point of this thread is.

Q: Do YOU (or anyone else) have a test that accurately, repeatedly, and reliably pinpoints the ABS control module as bad when the steel wire lifts off the gold bondpad?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
wheel sensors, they are "active" sensors ... Hall effect AC signal into a DC square wave output. This internal circuit is not just a simple diode that can be tested by measuring resistance or doing a diode test
OK. Your other comments made me suspect you haven't actually read anything I posted earlier ... and this comment bolstered that feeling.

Please read the thread. I do very much value your input. I, like you, would absolutely LOVE for someone to propose a reliable (repeatable) test that pinpoints a bad ABS control module.

But - and please understand me clearly - but if you continue to spout as a lesson to us what we all already know - then you risk us taking you less seriously.

Just read back at my earlier posts. Do you think I look like someone who doesn't know that the wheel speed sensor is not a diode per se?

Nobody ever said the wheel speed sensor 'was' a diode!



Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
a sensor testing "good" does not prove that the sensor output to the DSC module is normal. You need to actually measure the sensor output, which should be a 0.75 V/2.5 V square wave.
Please read post #48 in this thread again.

We KNOW how to test the wheel speed sensors!

Of course, if you have BETTER tests for the wheel speed sensors, again, we'd be all ears.

That post was made years ago, and we've learned a lot since, but, to edify you, here is what we posted way back when.

Quote:
TEST WHEEL SENSOR CIRCUIT FROM THE ABS CONNECTOR (also checks wiring circuit):
OPTIONAL: Jack car up (so that all four wheels can be spun to test voltage & resistance fluctuations of the hall-effect sensors)
- Turn the car off and remove the key from the ignition.
- TEST 1: Switch the DMM into the diode test position
- Wrap a stiff 20AWG wire onto the ends of your DMM probe for sticking into ABS-connector pins
- Label the positive 20AWG wire with white tape so that you won't get confused as you switch back and forth
- Stick the ends of the wire into the appropriate female holes of the ABS connector (13-29, 30-31, 28-12, 15-16)
- In one direction, you should see 1.7 to 1.8 volts (note the pinouts mentioned are in order, positive to negative)
- In the other direction, you should see OL or some other infinite reading (open circuit)
- TEST 2: Switch the DMM into resistance checking mode (optional)
- You should see around 3.3 Mega ohms in one direction & approximately twice that in the other direction (but some say more)
- TEST 3: If desired spin the wheel at about 1 revolution per second, by hand (the resistance should fluctuate as the wheel spins)
- TEST 4: Switch the DMM into millivolt mode (optional) & again spin the tire & wheel assembly by hand (test-lead polarity won't matter)
- You should read between 1 and 5 mV when you spin the hub (no voltage implicate the sensor or circuit)
- OPTIONAL TESTS BELOW REQUIRE FLYING LEADS WITH THE IGNITION SYSTEM ABS SYSTEM CONNECTED & POWERED UP:
- TEST 5: Swith the DMM into the 10v and attach flying leads to the sensors with the power on
- You should see the voltage going to the sensor and the return signal
- Expect a baseline voltage of about +5 to +12 volts depending on the ABS system (does anyone know this value?)
- Expect that baseline voltage to the sensor to change (by how much?) as you spin the wheels
- TEST 6: Hook an oscilloscope with "flying leads" to the ABS sensors (notice that the ABS system must be powered)
- You should see nice clean square waves generated as you hand spin the wheels at about 1 revolution per second.
Note: The oscilliscope can detect problems that can't easily be found with a DMM (A scope pattern for a wheel speed sensor should show a classic sine wave alternating current pattern that changes both in frequency and amplitude with wheel speed. As the wheel is turned faster, signal frequency and amplitude should both increase. Damaged or missing teeth on the sensor ring will show up as flat spots or gaps in the sine wave pattern. A bent axle or hub will produce an undulating pattern that changes as the strength of the sensor signal changes with every revolution. If the scope pattern produced by the sensor is flattened (diminished amplitude) or is erratic, it usually indicates a weak signal caused by an excessively wide air gap between the tip of the sensor and its ring, or a buildup of metallic debris on the end of the sensor. A weak signal can also be caused by internal resistance in the sensor or its wiring circuit, or loose or corroded wiring connectors.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
You don't have to troll the web for some torrent to find these "fancy schmancy diagnostic tools." They are available for free on the here and also here (ftp://94.212.182.18/). All you need to know to install and use these programs is easily found on the Bimmerforums Diagnostic Software forum.
Hi Jeff,
I really do value your input.

There are two types of people. Those who can install those fancy tools, and, those who find it difficult to install those fancy tools.

I, for one, have had a devil of a time just DOWNLOADING, those fancy tools!

Do you want to 'see' my log file? It isn't pretty! (see below)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf logfile.txt_remove.pdf (19.7 KB, 129 views)

Last edited by bluebee; 08-07-2011 at 08:18 PM. Reason: Added the fancy schmancy tool log file (note it's a TEXT file, not a PDF!)
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  #464  
Old 08-07-2011, 05:58 PM
jeffstri jeffstri is offline
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Jeez Bluebee,

Any chance you could edit your last post down so I can reply to it without my replies getting lost?

Why should I need to "defend" DIS/GT1? It seems to me that you need to defend your head-in-sand rejection of something you have never used.

You keep saying the same things over and over: "show me a test that pinpoints the ABS module." There is no such single test, and the expectation that there should be one is naive. There are no sensors in the DSC module that monitor the module itself. However, DIS/GT1 provides a process and the means to do tests to determine the cause of fault codes that you cannot do with a DIMM alone.

You misread my last post - I had pressure sensor faults, but the problem was in the DSC module.

Are you arguing that since most ABS problems are caused by either faulty wheel sensors or the DSC module itself, you only need to check the wheel sensors and if they're good, get the module rebuilt? The problem is that the pressure sensor and the precharge pump do fail, so if you don't read the fault codes first your approach will end up needlessly rebuilding some modules. Also, the only way to show that the wheel sensors are working properly is show they are producing the expected 0.75 V/2.5 V square wave. Nothing else, such as measuring the resistance across the sensor pins, or a diode test, will prove that the wheel sensor "system" (i.e., impulse wheel, sensor itself, wiring harness, and power supply to the sensor) is good. If you understand that wheel sensor is not a diode, why do you advocate the diode test with a DIMM?

You're vastly overestimating what it takes to set up DIS/GT1, and underestimating how long it takes to prove that wheel sensor outputs are ok. I'd love for you to document step by step your 10 - 15 min procedure for showing all four wheel sensors are good. Please don't refer me to a megapost for that one.

Last edited by jeffstri; 08-07-2011 at 06:09 PM.
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  #465  
Old 08-07-2011, 07:08 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
It seems to me that you need to defend your head-in-sand rejection of something you have never used.
Actually, let's be clear: It matters not that "I" have never used the tools you extol the virtues of.

You know why?

Because I hit the search button. Many times. Very many times.

If anyone else "had" used the tools successfully to identify a bad ABS control module, I would (most likely) have found that. To date, nobody has shown reliable proof that the fancy schmancy tools can do anything useful to conclusively identify a bad ABS control module.

BTW, there was a perplexing posting just recently stating that the fancy schmancy tools did the job for one guy; but edjack and agent15 and I all, at first intrigued, finally simply gave up exasperated (putting him on the permanent ignore list) when the OP turned out to be all fluff and no substance:
- Reading ABS DSC fault codes

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
You keep saying the same things over and over
It's a technique I learned on customer support hotlines. It's called the "broken record" (you can look it up as it's a well known technique to use when someone appears to not get the point).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
"show me a test that pinpoints the ABS module." There is no such single test
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
and the expectation that there should be one is naive.
Whoa! Wait a minute there. YOU are the one extolling the virtues of the fancy schmancy test tools. Not me. I'm the one who has concluded they're nearly useless in helping to identify the most common ABS complaint of all - i.e., a bad ABS control module.

With all due respect, it seems that YOU have the expectation that they can help us in this endeavor ... not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
DIS/GT1 provides a process and the means to do tests to determine the cause of fault codes that you cannot do with a DIMM alone.
Great! Please propose a test, using DIS/GT1, which will positively identify either a single bad wheel speed sensor or an ABS control module whose steel wire has lifted off its gold bondpad.

If you can do that, and if the test actually works, I'll be the FIRST PERSON to publicly admit I was wrong about the fancy schmancy tools. I'm not the Catholic church. If I'm wrong, I'll simply admit it.

But, again, YOU are the one extolling the virtues of the fancy schmancy tools. So, YOU should be the one to show how that test can be run successfully - not me (Remember: I'm of the opinion the fancy tools are nearly useless for this purpose!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
You misread my last post - I had pressure sensor faults, but the problem was in the DSC module.
Yes. I did misread your post. I thought you had identified a bad brake pressure sensor. My mistake. Mea culpa.

At the risk of being too bold ... may I ask: Does that mean that the simple test sequence most often proposed would have worked for you also in this case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
Are you arguing that since most ABS problems are caused by either faulty wheel sensors or the DSC module itself, you only need to check the wheel sensors and if they're good, get the module rebuilt?
If you read this thread, from start to finish, I was as astounded as you seem to be that this admittedly vague method works to resolve almost all ABS trifecta and bifecta problems!

In fact, you see in the record, that I myself spent nearly a year FIGHTING that basic tenet!

It just sounded like heresy for us to simply test the wheel speed sensors, and, then, if they were good, to go off and get the ABS control module rebuilt. I agree with you - it just doesn't feel right NOT to test the ABS control module electrically!

Of course, I did say there IS a (physical) test for the ABS control module - but - it requires a magnetized needle and a hacksaw blade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
The problem is that the pressure sensor and the precharge pump do fail, so if you don't read the fault codes first your approach will end up needlessly rebuilding some modules.
First off, it's not "MY" approach. It's the approach most often recommended (remember, it took me nearly a year to 'agree' with this approach myself!).

But, it 'is' the approach most often recommended - simply because the most common problems are bad wheel speed sensors and bad ABS control modules.

I certainly agree with you (and have said so numerous times in this thread), that the problem 'can' be any of a score of sensors (I even listed them all in post #48 and someone provided the specs for each one of them in a PDF).
- BMW_30-PAGE_DSC_COMPONENTS.PDF

Quote:
• 1 BOSCH DC III Control Module 83 Pin (combined with the hydraulic unit in my E39, DSC III Bosch 5.7) <==COMMON CULPRIT!
• 1 Hydraulic Unit (combined with the control module in my E39, DSC III Bosch 5.7)
• Hydraulic Unit contains: 2 pre-charge solenoid valves
• Hydraulic Unit contains: 2 changeover solenoid valves
• Hydraulic Unit contains: 4 intake solenoid valves
• Hydraulic Unit contains: 4 outlet solenoid valves
• Hydraulic Unit contains: 1 return pump
• 2 Front Wheel Speed Sensors (Active Hall Effect) in the steering knuckles, secured with two 4 mm allen bolts <==COMMON CULPRIT!
• 2 Rear Wheel Speed Sensors (Active Hall Effect) in the rear wheel bearing carriers, secured with one 4 mm allen bolt <==COMMON CULPRIT!
• 1 Hydraulic Pressure Sensor (attached to the front-brake hydraulic unit in my E39, DSC III Bosch 5.7)
• 1 Steering Angle Sensor (located in the bottom of the steering column, near the flexible coupling)
• 1 Rotation Rate, aka Yaw Sensor (combined with the lateral-acceleration sensor in my E39, DSC III Bosch 5.7)
• 1 Lateral Acceleration Sensor (combined with the yaw sensor in my E39, DSC III Bosch 5.7)
• 1 DSC Switch (located below the radio in the cockpit)
• 1 Hand Brake Switch (located on the hand brake assembly)
• 1 Brake Switch (located on the brake-pedal assembly)
• 1 Pre-Charging Pump
• 1 Charging Piston (750iL only)
However, MOST of the time, the 'recommended approach' works - simply because the most common problems are either one of the wheel speed sensors or the steel wire lifted off its gold bondpad on the ABS control module.

And, anyway, we really don't have an easier more reliable method to recommend (we would, if we did!).

Please do remember, and I hesitate to couch this properly ... a LOT of people who post here ... are ... um ... well, um ... let's just say it. They're morons. To be blunt.

They get the trifecta and the first thing they do is replace all four wheel speed sensors and THEN they write to complain it didn't work. Or, they use the fancy schmancy tools which implicate sensor X and off they go, instantly replacing sensor X.

We don't do things that way here (that's why this thread exists in the first place!).

You and I DIAGNOSE first. We're are not like the proletariat. Neither is Cn90, nor 540iman, nor Fudman, MatWiz, RDL, JimLevy, QSilver7, Edjack, Poolman, Edgy36-37, Εgent99, PropellerHead, Agent15, Pleiades, Franka, etc.

The problem here is that nobody yet (not just me ... nobody) has proposed an easy to run test that directly implicates the ABS control module - using ANY TOOL whatsoever (except the aforementioned physical test previously stated).

In fact, you'll note (if you haven't read the entire thread), there was a time where we ATTEMPTED to find the pinout for the wire that innervates the steel (presumably power) wire that lifts off its gold bond pad.

We never found that electrical test, much to my dismay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
If you understand that wheel sensor is not a diode, why do you advocate the diode test with a DIMM?
Because the test seems to work in implicating grossly bad wheel speed sensors (based on the overwhelming anecdotal evidence).

And, because we all have the tools to perform that simple test.

The hall effect sensor 'acts' similarly to how a diode acts in that the forward-biased and reverse-biased readings are vastly different - and consistent among the four wheels.

We generally advise to replace any one wheel speed sensor whose readings are grossly different than the other three.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
You're vastly overestimating what it takes to set up DIS/GT1
Some day I'll get that round tuit and set it up.

But, I first need to buy a serial-port computer. Then I need to see if the Carsoft 6.5 cables will work with whatever program I install.

To be sure, I've already downloaded the RAR files for all but Progman, namely INPA_2010 (6 RAR files), NCS_made easy (1 executable & a couple of ancillary files), & Easy_DIS (3 RAR files).

Note: Progman was 24 RAR files, each of which takes 600 seconds just to START downloading, and many hours of tedious downloading at my lame Internet speeds - most of which time out - necessitating a repeat of the entire onerous and super frustrating process - so I just gave up on Progman.

Note: No other programs were available on the listed web site using the passwords provided.

My question to you:
Q: Which of those downloaded fancy programs do you suggest I install first to test for accurate DIAGNOSIS of the ABS control module and/or wheel speed sensors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
I'd love for you to document step by step your 10 - 15 min procedure for showing all four wheel sensors are good. Please don't refer me to a megapost for that one.
You're joking, right?
  • We already posted a picture of the pinout & test lead setup
  • We already posted a table of the expected results
  • Then, we explained how to interpret the results (resulting in a good or bad sensor diagnosis)

What could be simpler for the ten-minute test?

Here, for example, is a direct quote from post #48 of this thread:
Quote:
- Each wheel sensor circuit has a set of two wires in the ABS connector (pinout kindly supplied by 540iman)
- ABS-connector pins 13,29 = Left rear wheel sensor (also affects speedometer & odometer & tripmeter)
- ABS-connector pins 30,31 = Right rear wheel sensor (also affects cruise control)
- ABS-connector pins 28,12 = Left front wheel sensor (some say it also acts as a steering angle sensor)
- ABS-connector pins 15,16 = Right front wheel sensor (tells gearbox electronics how fast you're going)
Note: These pinouts are in the same order of the diode action of each sensor (do not reverse these numbers)
Note: ASC cars have only two sensors, one on the front right and the other on the rear left wheel.
Here are my results from the ten-minute test:


What you're looking for are readings out of the ordinary on ONE of the wheel speed sensors (the likelihood of more than one sensor going bad at the same time is, by all accounts, very low).

BTW, with respect to time, it takes longer for me to cut and paste these pictures than it takes to run & interpret the simple test!

Last edited by bluebee; 08-07-2011 at 08:16 PM.
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  #466  
Old 08-07-2011, 07:43 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
Any chance you could edit your last post down so I can reply to it without my replies getting lost?
Hi Jeff,

I realize my responses are detailed, so, I would like to summarize what I'd love to learn from you (because you have way more experience than I).

1. Of the tools I was able to obtain online, which do you recommend I install for the recommended tests of the ABS control module & wheel speed sensor operation?
  • INPA_2010 (6 RAR files, 98,078KB each except for the last one which is only 1,361KB)
  • NCS_made easy (1 executable, 128KB, 1 REVTOR.PFL file, 2KB - whatever that is, & a PDF, 111KB)
  • Easy_DIS (3 RAR files, 98,078KB each except for the last one which is 62,729KB)
  • Carsoft 6.5 (1 RAR file, 12,113KB)
  • BMW Interface Tester (1 executable file, 353KB)
2. Once installed, what test do you recommend I run using that tool?

Note: If you say I need Progman, I 'can' obtain it; but the download will take days to be successful (it's 24 RAR files, most of which are 97,657KB and each click takes 600 seconds just to begin the sloooooow download process!).

Note: There are NO OTHER tools available at that recommended site (see the previously posted log file). It 'looks' like more are available; but the rest require a password which is unknown to me.

Note: My original goal in obtaining the tools was merely to remove that obnoxious automatic door lock nuisance "feature" (BMW must think we all live in constant fear of carjacking with kids jumping out of open doors at highway speeds!).

Last edited by bluebee; 08-07-2011 at 08:05 PM.
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  #467  
Old 08-07-2011, 08:09 PM
jeffstri jeffstri is offline
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Come on Bluebee. You've misrepresented almost everything I said.

I'll try one more time: for ANY control module, a fault code can be due to something internal in the control module itself, but the only way to diagnose that is to show that the peripheral sensor/component implicated by the code is sending the expected signal to the module.

Your ten-minute wheel sensor resistance/diode tests do NOT prove that the wheel sensors are good. The most you can conclude from those tests is that the wheel sensors are not definitely bad. You have to show they are sending the expected 0.75 V/2.5 V square wave to the DSC module to prove that the wheel sensors are good.

DIS/GT1 tells you what you need to do to show a sensor/component is working, which are often tests that you cannot do with just a DIMM, such as measure the actual brake line pressure. There are a bunch of other things DIS/GT1 can do, such as code a replacement DSC module, calibrate the steering wheel sensor, cycle the ABS and precharge pumps and the ABS valves, and bleed the ABS control. If you think these are not worthwhile, I give up.

BTW, I thought I had mentioned that I did use DIS/GT! (and I admit, my DIMM) to identify exactly where the problem was within my DSC module: the internal circuit between pin 25 (pressure sensor ground) and pin 5 (DSC module ground).

Last edited by jeffstri; 08-11-2011 at 12:04 PM.
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  #468  
Old 08-07-2011, 08:19 PM
jeffstri jeffstri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Hi Jeff,

I realize my responses are detailed, so, I would like to summarize what I'd love to learn from you (because you have way more experience than I).

1. Of the tools I was able to obtain online, which do you recommend I install for the recommended tests of the ABS control module & wheel speed sensor operation?
  • INPA_2010 (6 RAR files, 98,078KB each except for the last one which is only 1,361KB)
  • NCS_made easy (1 executable, 128KB, 1 REVTOR.PFL file, 2KB - whatever that is, & a PDF, 111KB)
  • Easy_DIS (3 RAR files, 98,078KB each except for the last one which is 62,729KB)
  • Carsoft 6.5 (1 RAR file, 12,113KB)
  • BMW Interface Tester (1 executable file, 353KB)
2. Once installed, what test do you recommend I run using that tool?

Note: If you say I need Progman, I 'can' obtain it; but the download will take days to be successful (it's 24 RAR files, most of which are 97,657KB and each click takes 600 seconds just to begin the sloooooow download process!).

Note: There are NO OTHER tools available at that recommended site (see the previously posted log file). It 'looks' like more are available; but the rest require a password which is unknown to me.

Note: My original goal in obtaining the tools was merely to remove that obnoxious automatic door lock nuisance "feature" (BMW must think we all live in constant fear of carjacking with kids jumping out of open doors at highway speeds!).
Start with INPA and EasyDis. NCS expert and WInKPT will install with INPA. Get an Ediabas/OBD interface on ebay (I can find you a link) and you won't have to bother with Carsoft. Otherwise you'll need to run Carsoft to initialize the Carsoft interface so it will work with INPA and DIS. Hold off on Progman until you get DIS and INPA running.
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  #469  
Old 08-09-2011, 01:29 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
BTW, your ABS fault code list ... has errors and omissions: "10 Brake Light Switch" should be 105, and "115 Pressure Sensor Interface" is missing. I only know about these because I've had them both. I suspect there are other codes missing from the list.
I updated it over here just now in Whorse's excellent brand new ABS DIY!
- E39 (1997 - 2003) > ABS DSC module rebuild by Module Masters and DIY

How does this updated listing look?
Quote:
BMW ABS/ASC Bosch 5.7 Table of error codes:
5 Right Rear Wheel Speed Sensor
6 Right Front Wheel Speed Sensor
7 Front Left Wheel Speed Sensor
14 Solenoid Valve Relay (check fuses 17 & 33)
15 Pressure Sensor/Pump Error
21 Module Memory Failure - ABS/ASC module is faulty
23 Incorrect Coding - ABS/ASC module is faulty
24 Wrong Impulse
30 Left Rear Wheel Speed Sensor
31 Open Right Rear Wheel Speed Sensor
32 Open Right Front Wheel Speed Sensor
33 Open Left Front Wheel Speed Sensor
50 Right Front Outlet Valve - ABS/ASC module is faulty
51 Left Rear Outlet Valve - ABS/ASC module is faulty
54 Left Front Inlet Valve - ABS/ASC module is faulty
55 ASC Intake Valve - ABS/ASC module is faulty
58 Gear Box Control Unit (CAN bus error)
59 DMER1 (CAN bus error)
61 Steering Angle Sensor Identification
66 Speed Sensor Voltage Supply
67 Intermittent Interference
75 Engine Speed Fault from DME
81 Pressure Sensor
82 Open Yaw Rate Sensor
86 ASC Cut-off Valve Rear Axle
88 Precharge Pump
89 Low Voltage
90 Temporary System Deactivation
94 DDE Fault/Yaw rate sensor
97 Steering Angle Sensor
105 Brake Light Switch
108 SN Control
112 Open CAN to Instrument Cluster
114 Pressure Sensor Offset
115 Pressure Sensor Interface
117 Brake Light Switch Failure
118 DME Status-Internal Error
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
Start with INPA and EasyDis. NCS expert and WInKPT will install with INPA.
OK. I will install them on a WinXP machine sans a serial interface port (just to see how hard it is to install); then I'll look for a serial port computer to hook my Carsoft 6.5 cables to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
Get an Ediabas/OBD interface on ebay
I was hoping my Carsoft 6.5 cables would work for connection to my 2002 E39 OBD port.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
Otherwise you'll need to run Carsoft to initialize the Carsoft interface so it will work with INPA and DIS.
Drat. More complications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
Hold off on Progman until you get DIS and INPA running.
Good. That Progmam download is tremendously frustrating!
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  #470  
Old 08-09-2011, 01:59 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
I updated it over here just now in Whorse's excellent brand new ABS DIY!
- E39 (1997 - 2003) > ABS DSC module rebuild by Module Masters and DIY
BTW, Whorse brings up some really good points in that recent ABS DIY.

For example, he says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whorse
if the cruise control does NOT work they will NOT be able to fix it and you most likely have a bad speed sensor
In addition, Whorse thinks the rebuilder (MM in his case, for $320, including shipping) also worked on two components on the BACKSIDE of the ABS control module!

Quote:
Excellent (new) information!

This is the FIRST time I've heard that they touched parts on the backside (the one with the cylindrical posts)!

What we need to do is ASK people to snap BEFORE and AFTER pictures of that (often neglected) backside - so that we can tell if they've been touched during the rebuild process.

It might be that these 'parts' are touched either to test or to fix so it would also be useful to know WHAT these two objects do!

To capitalize on this new information, we need to start telling the NEXT folks who send their ABS control modules out for repair to do the following three steps!

Snap a before-and-after set of pictures of the backside of the ABS control module.
  • Pay particular attention to the two metal-encased modules (perhaps mark them so you'll know if/when they're replaced)

If you open up the front, snap before/after pictures of the guts
  • Pay particular attention (with a magnetized needle) to the steel wire to see if it lifted off its gold bond pad and to the gold "angel hairs" which may flop about and touch intermittently in the goop.

While the ABS control module is on the rebuilder's test jig, CALL THEM, and ask them what they found
  • I asked ATE, who said (from memory) they replaced discrete components - which I find hard to believe now that I've seen what the board looks like.
  • However, I didn't notice whether they replaced the metal-encased components in the BACK of the ABS control module!
Here is an example of the front and back pictures desired:
- BMW E38 ABS/DSC/ASC REPAIR

For posterity, here's a PDF of that E38 web page:
- BMW E38 ABS DSC Brake Failure Repair 735i 740i 750i.pdf

SAMPLE FRONT AUTOPSY PHOTO (showing the circuit board wiring & components):


SAMPLE BACK AUTOPSY PHOTO (showing the two metal-encased modules):

Last edited by bluebee; 08-11-2011 at 01:00 AM.
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  #471  
Old 08-09-2011, 02:41 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
You've misrepresented almost everything I said.
Hmmm... that's interesting.

You think I misrepresent you ... and ... oddly enough ... (see below) ... I respectfully thought the same of you.

Oh well. At least this is an openly public discussion so anyone can interpret the results for themselves!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
a fault code can be due to something internal in the control module itself, but the only way to diagnose that is to show that the peripheral sensor/component implicated by the code is sending the expected signal to the module.
I'm not disagreeing with you (and I don't see anywhere where I have said that I disagreed with that premise).

In fact, the record clearly shows we all got together to post whatever we could to list all the 'expected signals' from each of the 20-odd sensors that innervate the ABS control module.

I did my part to help garner all that information for testing the input/output/power for each of the 20-odd sensors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
Your ten-minute wheel sensor resistance/diode tests do NOT prove that the wheel sensors are good.
It's not 'my' test; but your point is well taken.

In fact, I already (numerous times) agreed with you that there are at least SIX tests (and maybe more) that "should" be run on the wheel speed sensors.

If you remember, I researched and listed them all in detail (more than once). Of course, none are as 'easy' as the ten-minute test; but, if a user suspected that the ten-minute test wasn't enough - then that's exactly why we went to the trouble to list the other tests.

The record clearly shows that we don't think the ten-minute test is the ONLY test that should/could be run.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
The most you can conclude from those tests is that the wheel sensors are not definitely bad.
For ten minutes and zero dollars - that's not a bad ROI!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
You have to show they are sending the expected the expected 0.75 V/2.5 V square wave to the DSC module to prove that the wheel sensors are good.
At the risk of repeating myself over and over and over again - we all KNOW that there are at least six tests you can (should, could) run on the wheel speed sensors if you need/want/desire more information!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
DIS/GT1 tells you what you need to do to show a sensor/component is working, which are often tests that you cannot do with just a DIMM, such as measure the actual brake line pressure.
That's good information.

However, a 'true' test of the brake pressure sensor apparently requires 'flying leads' (amply documented elsewhere in this thread); so, we may wonder 'if' DIS/GT1 'can' accurately tell this information without being actually inserted with 'flying leads' in the right place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
There are a bunch of other things DIS/GT1 can do
Nobody is intimating that these are not useful tools in other situations.

Certainly I have never said that; so please do not imply that I have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
If you think these are not worthwhile, I give up.
That is an unfair supposition.

I have NEVER said the tools aren't generally worthwhile!

In fact, my main desire for learning the tools is to get rid of the supremely annoying automatic door lock mechanism!
- E39 (1997 - 2003) > * * Auto Door Locks * *

Where I tried to summarize which tools performed the desired task:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
I summarized everything in this table (please correct as needed):

KEY:
NO = Does not set or unset BMW automatic door lock features
YES = Does set and unset BMW automatic door lock features

SUMMARY:
YES: GT1, Progman, Easy-DIS v44 only, NCS Expert, INPA, Carsoft (v7.x & v8.x only)
NO: Peake, Carsoft v6.x, Easy-DIS versions after v44

Recommended:
~$250: Carsoft, version 7.x & 8.x, CarsoftInternational (not earlier versions)
~$500: GT1, version DIS SSS?, BMW group tester 1
~$???: Progman, v?, seems to have superceded Easy-DIS

Not Recommended:
~$???: NCSExpert, version?, by from ?, not user friendly
~$450: INPA, version 2006?, buy from ?, not user friendly
~$???: Easy-DIS v44 only (later versions do not unset autolock), seems to have been superceded by Progman
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
BTW, I thought I had mentioned that I did use DIS/GT! (and I admit, my DIMM) to identify exactly where the problem was within my DSC module: the internal circuit between pin 25 (pressure sensor ground) and pin 5 (DSC module ground).
This may be the elusive clue we're looking for!

Could it be, perhaps, that this "pin 5" is that elusive steel wire which lifts off the gold bondpad?

I realize I'm stretching (by trying to connect the most common problem to your specific problem); but, if we could determine exactly which pin is enervated when the steel wire lifts off its gold bondpad, we may have found the missing link!

Do you have any more information about this pin 5 that will help us in that endeavor?

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  #472  
Old 08-09-2011, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
Your ten-minute wheel sensor resistance/diode tests do NOT prove that the wheel sensors are good. The most you can conclude from those tests is that the wheel sensors are not definitely bad. You have to show they are sending the expected the expected 0.75 V/2.5 V square wave to the DSC module to prove that the wheel sensors are good.
Wow ! After the mounds and mounds of information on ABS/DSC that has been documented all this time.... who would have thought something as significant as this would show up.

My sensors showed up as being good with the resistance test when, in fact, one of them was bad. Identified the bad one via stored fault code and replaced the sensor which fixed the problem.

Last edited by - Mover -; 08-09-2011 at 08:25 AM.
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  #473  
Old 08-09-2011, 12:05 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quick99Si wrote up an excellent diagnostic treatise today where he successfully employed the Autologic Diagnostic Scanner, Peake, and he began using EDIABAS, INPA, GT1 diagnostic tools:
- My experience with the trifecta lights (ABS/DSC/Brake)

Reproduced below are just some of the diagnostic tests he ran!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick99S
TEST 1: Speed Sensors
I performed the DMM test at the ABS control module connector, hoping to locate the faulty speed sensor. My results were as follows:
  • LOC PINS resistance diode/+-
    • LF 12-28 700 1.600/0L
    • LR 13-29 700 0L/0L
    • RF 15-16 700 1.610/OL
    • RR 30-31 700 1.615/0L
I tested each sensor twice and the faulty LEFT-REAR four times. I'm not new to electrical work, and I definitely know how to wield a multimeter, so this isn't a testing error. The resistance values were rounded obviously, and I was 100% sure of the results because we repeated them for confirmation. I even manipulated the harness expecting to find an intermittent issue with the wiring, at no avail.

TEST 2: Left-Rear Speed Sensor
I took off the wheel and disconnected the speed sensor. We performed the same test and got the same results as above (within error). This drove me crazy because my speedometer worked fine (it relies on the LEFT-REAR sensor for the speed reading that drives the speedo gauge, odometer, trip meter).

TEST 3: Engine Bay Grounds
I've heard reports and even seen a video of a brand ground causing the same symptoms. So I measured the voltage drop and resistance across the grounding blocks in the engine compartment. I tested the two on each fender and both passes my sanity checks. For a piece of mind, I disconnected the grounds and cleaned them nicely, along with the nut and the mounting location. A bad ground caused massive missfire and very loud electric arc-ing sounds in my 500hp Trans Am WS6 not too long ago, so I'm a bit sensitive to their needs!

TEST 4: Autologic Vehicle Diagnostics
At this point, I wasn't sure if it's adviseable to replace the LEFT-REAR sensor or swap with the RIGHT-REAR. I decided to take it to my buddy who works at a shop specializing in BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche. We hooked it up to an Autologic Scanner which is supposedly a fully fledged diagnostic tool and more powerful than the factory diagnostic tools. This thing, for the lack of a better word, is badass. I also ordered a Peake tool so I can do some basic stuff without bothering him.

This scanner plugs into the underhood connector and polls all modules for stored error codes. More importantly, it provides comprehensive troubleshooting and testing procedures for each detected issue. My car had a slew of them which had never been cleared properly, from bulb codes, foglight malfunction, headrest blocked on downward motion (wow). We concentrated on the ABS and speed sensor problems knowing that it's difficult to discern between a faulty sensor and module.

There were two relevant errors:
1. Right front speed sensor output not reliable, 255 iterations
2. Magnetic wheel error, 200-230 iterations
(I NEED TO LOCATE THE PRINTOUT AND CONFIRM THESE, THIS IS JUST FROM MEMORY FOR NOW)

TEST 4A: Brake Pressure Sensor
This sensor is located on the upper back side of the ABS distribution block. Mine looked to be in good condition despite the semi-awkward factory angle of the connector wiring, but the troubleshooting sequence asks to ensure that it detects smooth and linear pressure. I jumped into the car, started up the engine, and very very slowly applied the brakes while my buddy logged the data. It showed a linear increase in brake pressure and a max of something around 200 bar at full depression and idle engine speed. BPS is OK.

TEST 4B: Steering Angle Sensor
Similar as above, but we polled the sensor's output to ensure that it's working fine and not impacting the DSC negatively (it's one of the inputs as per the technical documents). My car showed -20 degrees to start with, and moving the wheel lock to lock registed -359 to +360. Getting it back to ~0 on the scanner resulted in the steering wheel being straight as well. I do not recall what the unit of measaure was used for this, presumable degrees. SAS is OK.

TEST 4C: Speed Sensor Outputs
With the car raised on the lift, I went from wheel to wheel and spun as quickly as I could while the speeds were logged on the Autologic. Each sensor reported 0kph with that wheel stationary, and they reported upward of 15-25kph with me spinning the respecting wheel. The reported speeds went up and down very quickly, but this was consistent among all four wheels so we considered the speed sensors and wiring functional. This is particularly strange given the results of TEST 1. Speed sensors appear OK.

TEST 4D: ABS Control Unit Solenoids
The Autologic has the ability to toggle the ABS solenoids on an individual basis. I think there were 12-24 tests and they all clicked on/off as instructed. Nothing surprising here. This was more of a hunt for more symptoms than a test. Not a total waste of time because it was cool to see!

TEST 4E: Reset Every Single Code & Test Drive
Because there were so many stored codes from previous issues, we thought it best to just reset all the codes and drive the car for a bit. This would allow time to read and store current codes so we can more effectively diagnose the issue from here on out. I drove 15 miles home through Friday rush hour traffic!
...
PEAKE TOOL
...
I retrieved the following error codes using the Peake:
  • Table 0F
    • 1C - mixture control, idle, cyl 1-4
    • 1D - mixture control, idle, cyl 5-8
    • 62 - EVAP emission system purge valve
    • 05 - precat oxygen sensor, cyl 5-8
    • 12 - precat oxygen sensor heater, cyl 5-8
    • ?? - aftercat oxygen sensor (aging?)
    • DD - CAN Timeout ASC/DSC
The last code is the only relevant one for this troubleshooting procedure. I suspect it represents power cutting in/out at or near the ABS module, or no power at all, which is consistent with BlueBee's repeated assertion of a cracked/disconnector power supply wire on the module circuit board.

The "CAN Timeout ASC/DSC" code is stored immediately with no nonsense anymore. I can clear all the codes and this is always the first one to come back by far.

To deal with the other symptoms, the car is getting new Bosch primary oxygen sensors, NGK spark plugs, new fuel filter and fuel pressure regulator, gas cap silicone lube, a vacuum line lookover, secondary o2 non-foulers etc..
I was impressed at his diagnostic acumen, as were others:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 540iman View Post
Congrats for applying every known test we in the community know of! I am very impressed with your thorough diagnostics and especially your rationale.
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Last edited by bluebee; 08-21-2011 at 02:36 PM.
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  #474  
Old 08-09-2011, 12:07 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Unfortunately the request to snap a before/after picture of the BACKSIDE of the ABS control module was made too late as he sent his out for $150 to ATE for repair.
- My experience with the trifecta lights (ABS/DSC/Brake)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick99Si
I decided to go through eBay and selected ATE (aka Auto ECU, Auto Truck Electronics) for $150. It's important to remember that some modules cannot be rebuilt (the success rate varies with whom you ask). I looked at ATE's eBay feedback as a general guide for positive/negative feedback on BMW Bosch 5.7 rebuilds and felt that it's probably a 50/50 shot at getting back a working module. They charge a bench testing and shipping fee only in the event that it cannot be rebuilt.
I'm sure he'll update us over in his excellent ABS diagnostic thread with the details when it comes back!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick99Si View Post
Unfortunately, I had sent the module out on Friday night and it finally left the FedEx Kinkos this morning. I'll post pictures of the solenoid side and compare it to my spare module's once I receive it.

Last edited by bluebee; 08-10-2011 at 11:44 PM. Reason: Fixed a typo in my quoting of Quick99Si's nested quoting so that it's easier for the reader.
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  #475  
Old 08-09-2011, 08:17 PM
- Mover - - Mover - is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffstri View Post
Your ten-minute wheel sensor resistance/diode tests do NOT prove that the wheel sensors are good. The most you can conclude from those tests is that the wheel sensors are not definitely bad. You have to show they are sending the expected the expected 0.75 V/2.5 V square wave to the DSC module to prove that the wheel sensors are good.
Something this significant shouldn't be overlooked.

Perhaps updates should be made throughout the board in order that others are not misled by the current documented method of testing that is posted everywhere on this board.
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