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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #51  
Old 08-05-2011, 08:07 AM
leanofpeak leanofpeak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
You're right. The 4S vs 550 comparison is rarely made given the 20k price difference.

I think most people cross shop based on price, so the 550xi if anything might get cross shopped with the V6 Panamera. That choice would be a stark one of performance vs. prestige.
I am between the two cars myself. i think what has Brett and me thinking is the fact that when we option up a 4S, we usually wind up with a ~$107,000 car. A heavier optioned 550xi goes for ~$75,000. Thats over $30K more! not entirely worth it imo, but still hard to pass up.

lease difference is ~$1500 vs ~$900.

so even though we want the 4S, we cannot justify the added cost, thus the flip flopping and wanking.

we love it that you guys are here to slap us around and keep our senses intact...

in the end the 550xi is the better value and will fulfill the same duties. if i want to go really fast or turn super hard i go to the track in my gt3. the sedan is for running the kids around and getting groceries and and laying down rub around town with 500 dinan assisted ponies.
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  #52  
Old 08-05-2011, 08:29 AM
swajames swajames is offline
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Originally Posted by chelseafc View Post
It's great that reviews sing the Panamera's praises on handling and interior, but how much weight do you put on exterior design? The Panamera is hideous. I also loved that Top Gear episode. It gets even worse for the Porsche when it's lined up against the magnificent Aston Martin.
Beauty is, of course, subjective and is in the eye of the beholder, it's a blondes vs brunettes thing. I'm not the biggest fan of the Panamera design, but is one of those cars that is better in the flesh than it is in photographs.

The Rapide is undoubtedly a work of art, but it doesn't really compare too well to even the 4S in terms of performance, let alone the Turbo. Still, while I really like the Panamera, I love the Rapide and it would probably be my preference to either Panamera, it's one case where beauty trumps performance. I've considered (and am still considering) doing just that and taking a good look at a Rapide, it's an absolutely beautiful car. I've toyed with AM frequently and came very close to buying a V8 Vantage roadster when I bought my most recent 997. I'll have an Aston at some point, I just love the cars and the brand and it's an itch I'll have to scratch.
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Last edited by swajames; 08-05-2011 at 09:01 AM.
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  #53  
Old 08-05-2011, 08:40 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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75k is not peanuts for most and something we just through around on a grocery getter so in for example my case I'd rather save up to get a car I really like when spending this kind of coin which would be the Porsche. I owned an F10 for six months and it did absolutely zero for me in terms of driving excitement. However the OP has stated that he can't decide between the two even with money not being a factor so in that scenario the BMW seems to be the best choice since it gives him equal pleasure on test drives and is way cheaper with a better service deal.
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  #54  
Old 08-05-2011, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swajames View Post
Beauty is, of course, subjective and is in the eye of the beholder, it's a blondes vs brunettes thing. =
No, it's more like a Jennifer Anniston vs. Katy Sagal (Peg Bundy) thing. Ugly is ugly. Yes, even in person (I know I've tried to like this car, but it's just a hunchbacked ugly thing) it's still ugly. If I could afford one I might have been able to look past that. But it's still ugly.
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  #55  
Old 08-05-2011, 09:05 AM
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550 xi MSport with the Dinan upgrade has to be the ultimate dark horse on the road. I get enough idiots trying to intimidate me with their "run of the mill" cars, trucks and vans as it is - having a car the shows a strong visual presence will only heighten there desire to be bigger idiots.
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  #56  
Old 08-05-2011, 10:27 AM
chelseafc chelseafc is offline
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Originally Posted by a72 View Post
550 xi MSport with the Dinan upgrade has to be the ultimate dark horse on the road. I get enough idiots trying to intimidate me with their "run of the mill" cars, trucks and vans as it is - having a car the shows a strong visual presence will only heighten there desire to be bigger idiots.
Dinan S1 on an F10 550 comes ever so close to stock F10 M5 performance...of course when Dinan comes out with S1 for the M5 that monster will be over 600 bhp.

In its latest iteration, I don't see any need to go for the M5. I had an E60 and the V10 under full throttle was a glorious sound. Now you'll get the same sound in both M5 and 550. Also factor in the AWD of the 550 and it becomes an extremely capable machine.
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  #57  
Old 08-05-2011, 10:33 AM
chelseafc chelseafc is offline
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Originally Posted by leanofpeak View Post
I am between the two cars myself. i think what has Brett and me thinking is the fact that when we option up a 4S, we usually wind up with a ~$107,000 car. A heavier optioned 550xi goes for ~$75,000. Thats over $30K more! not entirely worth it imo, but still hard to pass up.

lease difference is ~$1500 vs ~$900.

so even though we want the 4S, we cannot justify the added cost, thus the flip flopping and wanking.

we love it that you guys are here to slap us around and keep our senses intact...

in the end the 550xi is the better value and will fulfill the same duties. if i want to go really fast or turn super hard i go to the track in my gt3. the sedan is for running the kids around and getting groceries and and laying down rub around town with 500 dinan assisted ponies.
The F10 5 series has become an all-arounder, and this has been done on purpose to serve many people. It's just good business practice. You lose a few hard core guys but gain a massive amount of new support from people who now see the 5 as a go anywhere, do anything car.

From what I've read - mind you I have NOT test driven one yet - it seems the F10 does many things well, but perhaps nothing 'great'. The fact that I can have a 500 hp (Dinan S1), AWD, 4 door, year round luxury sport sedan - for < $70k - fills just about every need for me (except the utility of a pick up truck!). We all need to make sacrifices...somewhere. I'd love to have a pickup, an SUV, a Lotus, an M3, a 550 and a 750 but that's not going to happen.

I loved my E60 550i very much, but it left me needing a second vehicle in the winter. Not the case anymore. If that means a bit of a sacrifice in handling, no problem. Put it all into perspective, the perfect car is not out there.
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Last edited by chelseafc; 08-05-2011 at 10:40 AM.
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  #58  
Old 08-05-2011, 11:16 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chelseafc View Post
Dinan S1 on an F10 550 comes ever so close to stock F10 M5 performance...of course when Dinan comes out with S1 for the M5 that monster will be over 600 bhp.

In its latest iteration, I don't see any need to go for the M5. I had an E60 and the V10 under full throttle was a glorious sound. Now you'll get the same sound in both M5 and 550. Also factor in the AWD of the 550 and it becomes an extremely capable machine.
Reasons I would get M5 over 550 w/ Dinan:

1. Supposedly F10 M5 will be offered with xDrive
2. Dinan for M5 package will be insane.
3. M5 specific gauges and HUD. BEAUTIFUL.
4. 7 Speed DCT >> than 8 speed ZF Auto
5. Hydraulic P.S. vs. Electric
6. Much more adjust-ability of suspension, steering and transmission vs. stock car.
7. Exclusivity.

Yes, it will be more. But I'd say it's probably worth the $20k more.
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  #59  
Old 08-05-2011, 11:30 AM
Nobrandfanboy Nobrandfanboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chelseafc View Post
The F10 5 series has become an all-arounder, and this has been done on purpose to serve many people. It's just good business practice. You lose a few hard core guys but gain a massive amount of new support from people who now see the 5 as a go anywhere, do anything car.

From what I've read - mind you I have NOT test driven one yet - it seems the F10 does many things well, but perhaps nothing 'great'. The fact that I can have a 500 hp (Dinan S1), AWD, 4 door, year round luxury sport sedan - for < $70k - fills just about every need for me (except the utility of a pick up truck!). We all need to make sacrifices...somewhere. I'd love to have a pickup, an SUV, a Lotus, an M3, a 550 and a 750 but that's not going to happen.

I loved my E60 550i very much, but it left me needing a second vehicle in the winter. Not the case anymore. If that means a bit of a sacrifice in handling, no problem. Put it all into perspective, the perfect car is not out there.
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Last edited by Nobrandfanboy; 08-05-2011 at 11:31 AM.
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  #60  
Old 08-05-2011, 05:57 PM
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I considered many of the cars mentioned already, but I never really saw the cost difference as a major issue, in fact many looked to cost about the same $2200-2600/month. The difference was the duration of the loan:
335d = 2yrs
550xi = 3yrs
B7x = 4yrs
PanaT = 5yrs

Just a different way to look at it.
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  #61  
Old 08-07-2011, 06:35 PM
leanofpeak leanofpeak is offline
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The perfect car is always out there. Maybe not this year, but sooner out later one always comes around.

The perfect sedan for me is a panamera S so I have decided to get off the fence and ordered one today.

It's been nice knowing all of you thanks for all the time and help.
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  #62  
Old 08-07-2011, 06:42 PM
chelseafc chelseafc is offline
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Originally Posted by leanofpeak View Post
The perfect car is always out there. Maybe not this year, but sooner out later one always comes around.

The perfect sedan for me is a panamera S so I have decided to get off the fence and ordered one today.

It's been nice knowing all of you thanks for all the time and help.
Even an ugly baby has two parents who think he's beautiful. Good luck with the Panamera, I'm sure it's a great driving car I just could never imagine having to look at it everyday.
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  #63  
Old 08-07-2011, 07:19 PM
leanofpeak leanofpeak is offline
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Probably because your taste is too American

Americans dont like wagons, hatchbacks, diesels. Sedans are far and few between in Germany

Just got back from a month in Europe. The Panny is god over there...everyone loves the look as do I.

It's just a matter of taste...Germans hate fast food, Americans love the crap

Last edited by leanofpeak; 08-07-2011 at 07:21 PM.
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  #64  
Old 08-07-2011, 07:40 PM
swajames swajames is offline
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Congrats on the new car leanofpeak.

Someone posted the clip below on Rennlist and I thought you might like a listen. The Panamera V8 has a great exhaust note when stock, I think this exhaust sounds even better.

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  #65  
Old 08-07-2011, 08:30 PM
leanofpeak leanofpeak is offline
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Word.
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  #66  
Old 08-07-2011, 11:02 PM
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Yesterday I drove the A6 in France for half an hour along with a Panamera.
In the end this car is quite more expensive then any 550 and it surely is an ugly motherf*cker! I would defnitely tryout the upcoming M5 before buying that car, for not having regrets when the M5 comes on the streets.
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  #67  
Old 08-08-2011, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leanofpeak View Post
Probably because your taste is too American

Americans dont like wagons, hatchbacks, diesels. Sedans are far and few between in Germany

Just got back from a month in Europe. The Panny is god over there...everyone loves the look as do I.

It's just a matter of taste...Germans hate fast food, Americans love the crap
I think this is somewhat of an exaggeration. Personally, I love hatchbacks and wagons. Last car was a wagon, would have bought an F11 if they came here. Thought long and hard about an E61 but the N54 scares me.

I saw a Panamera on Friday in the parking lot of the restaurant I went to and spent some time looking at it. Surprisingly, the wife likes it more than I do, which is strange considering she usually is more conservative than I am.

it's still ungainly. Very long, very bulbous in the back.
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  #68  
Old 08-08-2011, 05:38 AM
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Congrats on your choice - there are no losers - the choice really comes down to where you place your priorities. I seriously considered purchasing a Panamera before I bought my 550i GT - BMW luxury 5 door v. Porsche luxury 5 door. I have always had an emotional tie to Porsche, having driven a 911 Turbo for many years - I was predisposed to choose the Porsche. That being said I surprised myself when I pulled the BMW GT trigger. Last month I recently revisited my decision and took another serious look at the Panamera and came to the same conclusion. My comment below remains true today as when originally posted. I think I might come to an similar conclusion if I were comparing Porsche to traditional BMW sedans especially the 750i.

I did not see the comparison test from Automobile Magazine before purchasing. Frankly, I was surprised by their conclusions. I thought both cars were engaging dynamically and aesthetically. Both the Porsche and BMW possess serious road presence, but the Porsche is more flamboyant. IMO the GT showcases BMW design language in a manner that is fresher and more original than the Porsche, which I considered derivative. The Porsche in any configuration places more emphasis on being a sports car and the BMW has more the feel of a seven series gran turismo. What I gave up dynamically, I made up in comfort, capacity, and long distance touring capability. Moreover, although these were all contributing elements, the BMW 550i's 400 hp 450 lbs-ft of torque when combined with a sport pack and 20-inch wheels mitigated the Porsche's sporting advantage. The Porsche is the better handling car in absolute terms but the BMW is a very engaging car to drive. Independent of cost, I concluded, as Automobile Mag concluded, that the BMW was the better overall choice. Considering cost further reaffirmed the conclusion - the Panamera V6 is about $82K to $90K and the Panamera S with options is over $100K.
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Last edited by Capobranco; 08-08-2011 at 08:14 AM.
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  #69  
Old 08-08-2011, 06:28 AM
chelseafc chelseafc is offline
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Originally Posted by leanofpeak View Post
Probably because your taste is too American

Americans dont like wagons, hatchbacks, diesels. Sedans are far and few between in Germany

Just got back from a month in Europe. The Panny is god over there...everyone loves the look as do I.

It's just a matter of taste...Germans hate fast food, Americans love the crap
Don't get defensive because everyone's hammering the look of your choice in vehicle. My taste is good design when I see it, has nothing to do with being American. Three British people (from Top Gear) despise the look of that thing. It transcends what country you're from. Porsche sells alot of Cayenne's and Panamera's, but that doesn't mean they're great looking vehicles. Also, I happen to love the CTS V Wagon and E61 M5.

I'm not going to get into an argument about this, I happen to think the Panamera is well engineered but aesthetically it is a disaster - a big hunchbacked orb. Then you have their 997 which is on the opposite end of the spectrum - a true masterpiece.
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  #70  
Old 08-08-2011, 06:42 AM
swajames swajames is offline
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Originally Posted by chelseafc View Post
Three British people (from Top Gear) despise the look of that thing.
They all loved the way it drove though

It was the best car to drive in their three-way comparison test between the Panamera, the Quattroporte and the Rapide. Beauty is, of course, in the eye of the beholder - and I won't argue that the Panamera doesn't trail the stunning Rapide - but performance is not, and here the Panamera prevailed. TG tested a Turbo, it would have been the same driving outcome had they tested an S/4S.

Depends on what you value. If you want the best driver's car, and if you can handle the higher cost of entry for the V8 models, there's nothing to touch a Panamera in the segment.
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Last edited by swajames; 08-08-2011 at 07:03 AM.
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  #71  
Old 08-08-2011, 07:05 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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leanofpeak has a point. I'm in Europe and everyone I've asked loves everything about the Panamera even the Italians. And seeing it in beautiful settings as the Amalfi coast or historical areas as downtown Naples I can say that IMO it makes a powerful and upmarket statement that the F10 can't remotely match with it's classic understated but also a bit anonymous look.

Regarding the price difference you need to realize that the Panamera is a large size 7 series competitor that just happens to out handle BMWs mid size car. Rumours has it that In 2015-2016 Porsche will launch a car aimed at the 5 series. Taken The Panamera's already impressive handling the smaller and lighter Pajun should have the chance to be a supremely well handling car. I'm so happy that Porsche entered the sedan segment to counter act the current "boatification".

Last edited by solstice; 08-08-2011 at 07:22 AM.
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  #72  
Old 08-08-2011, 07:35 AM
chelseafc chelseafc is offline
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
They all loved the way it drove though

It was the best car to drive in their three-way comparison test between the Panamera, the Quattroporte and the Rapide. Beauty is, of course, in the eye of the beholder - and I won't argue that the Panamera doesn't trail the stunning Rapide - but performance is not, and here the Panamera prevailed. TG tested a Turbo, it would have been the same driving outcome had they tested an S/4S.

Depends on what you value. If you want the best driver's car, and if you can handle the higher cost of entry for the V8 models, there's nothing to touch a Panamera in the segment.
Totally agree. I don't doubt it's the best driver. If you can get past the looks, then it's probably a magnificent car to drive. That's why the Rapide would've been my choice - it is a balance...stunning looks completely offset the less-than-Porsche drive. This is why I say there is no perfect car.

The Panamera is like a girl who's no looker but is still relatively hard to get, and you scratch your head at that from time to time. However, you get to know her and she has this intoxicating and charming personality. You really, really want to get past her looks cause she's so much fun. Some guys would be able to, some guys wouldn't be able to.
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  #73  
Old 08-08-2011, 07:50 AM
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Capobranco Capobranco is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
leanofpeak has a point. I'm in Europe and everyone I've asked loves everything about the Panamera even the Italians. And seeing it in beautiful settings as the Amalfi coast or historical areas as downtown Naples I can say that IMO it makes a powerful and upmarket statement that the F10 can't remotely match with it's classic understated but also a bit anonymous look.
My Italian partners in Florence, who are very talented designers, would agree with your statement. We often frequent this topic. Although the Panamera can be criticized for its derivative design and/or the rendering of specific design cues, overall, the Panamera possesses a serious, if not flamboyant presence. The BMW F10 550i and Panamera appeal to different market niches. (BTW - my Italian partners also share my enthusiasm for the the BMW 5GT.)
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  #74  
Old 08-08-2011, 12:30 PM
leanofpeak leanofpeak is offline
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Originally Posted by chelseafc View Post
Don't get defensive because everyone's hammering the look of your choice in vehicle. My taste is good design when I see it, has nothing to do with being American. Three British people (from Top Gear) despise the look of that thing. It transcends what country you're from. Porsche sells alot of Cayenne's and Panamera's, but that doesn't mean they're great looking vehicles. Also, I happen to love the CTS V Wagon and E61 M5.

I'm not going to get into an argument about this, I happen to think the Panamera is well engineered but aesthetically it is a disaster - a big hunchbacked orb. Then you have their 997 which is on the opposite end of the spectrum - a true masterpiece.
sorry didnt mean to come off defensive or imply you love fast food. do you?

i love cars. i love BMWs and Porsches especially. i would be infinitely happy in either of the two aforementioned vehicles. i am mostly just looking for a new flavor...i sold my e39 M5 and really just want to try something different though the new F10 is hard to pass up. just too much value.

Last edited by leanofpeak; 08-08-2011 at 12:36 PM.
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  #75  
Old 08-08-2011, 12:41 PM
chelseafc chelseafc is offline
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Originally Posted by leanofpeak View Post
sorry didnt mean to come off defensive or imply you love fast food. do you?

i love cars. i love BMWs and Porsches especially. i would be infnitely happy in either of the two aforementioned vehicles. i am mostly just looking for a new flavor...i sold my e39 M5 and really just want to try something different.
Yes of course I love fast food! BTW, everyone loves it but not everyone will admit it. But that's beside the point.

I suppose for me, I look at Porsche and their 997 and think of what a beautifully executed car from top to bottom. SUV's and 4 doors? Not so sure. I really think they could've created a wonderful, "bigger" 997. The Panamera looks too far off the reservation. Like they took the Cayenne and 997 and melted them down and developed the Panamera - it's not working for me. But that's me and my opinion.
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