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E46 M3 (2001-2006)

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  #1  
Old 08-16-2005, 08:22 PM
Elyas Elyas is offline
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ECU Chip Upgrade???

Wanted to pick some brains on upgrading my 02 M3's ECU unit. I have heard different stories from different people who have upgraded chips on their cars (all with similar mods like intake, exhaust, etc. to program the chip too, but none with M3s). Some swear by software upgrades and others have told me it's a waste of money. I haven't done any engine mods to my car, but I am planning on getting a new exhaust soon and was looking at also "chipping" the car to gain some more ponies. I don't plan on going crazy with the engine, maybe a pully kit and intake tops.

So. . . . . has anybody upgraded their e46 M3 with something like this? Are all these software upgrades the same or is there one to go with that stands apart from the rest for performance? I know Dinan offers an upgrade, along with the Shark Injector from Turner Motorsport, Powerchip through Evosport. . . . and so on. What's the best one out there and is it truely worth it? Will it screw up any warranty crap through BMW?

Hook it up yo!!

Elyas

Last edited by Elyas; 08-16-2005 at 09:01 PM.
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  #2  
Old 08-17-2005, 01:08 PM
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a) You give up your engine warrnaty if BMW finds out. And considering they used to take the ECU back to BMW NA on exploded engines, they probably will. Especially since they know that people mod the software, they can save a ton of money by finding out and denying your claim.

b) OBD II engiens in general do not gain much from bolt on or software mods. They are too near the edge already. You have to do some pretty major upgrading to get statitically significant HP.
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  #3  
Old 08-17-2005, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
a) You give up your engine warrnaty if BMW finds out. And considering they used to take the ECU back to BMW NA on exploded engines, they probably will. Especially since they know that people mod the software, they can save a ton of money by finding out and denying your claim.

b) OBD II engiens in general do not gain much from bolt on or software mods. They are too near the edge already. You have to do some pretty major upgrading to get statitically significant HP.
BUt you didnt hook him up yo!
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  #4  
Old 08-22-2005, 02:25 PM
silvscorp silvscorp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
a) You give up your engine warrnaty if BMW finds out. And considering they used to take the ECU back to BMW NA on exploded engines, they probably will. Especially since they know that people mod the software, they can save a ton of money by finding out and denying your claim.
Isn't all Dinan stuff warranted by dealers as well?
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  #5  
Old 08-22-2005, 02:37 PM
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No, Dinan stuff voids your facotry warranty PERIOD. Dinan steps up wiht a similar warranty for anything that is voided in your factory warranty. But you can end up in a finger pointing situation.

The dealer may deal with warranty issues, but no dealer is going to pick up the liability of actually providing a warranty, they will ONLY do the work if authorized and paid for by SOMEONE.
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  #6  
Old 08-23-2005, 06:49 PM
Elyas Elyas is offline
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I guess it's all relative. I spoke to the guys at Powerchip and they claim that there is no way a dealership can identify if the car was chipped using their product and it would not void any normal warranty unless the upgrade caused the damaged itself (kind of contradictory huh!?!?)

Talk about finger pointing if that happens. . . . . .
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  #7  
Old 08-24-2005, 02:47 AM
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A if the engine blows up, the dealer may send the ECU to BMW NA, who DOES have the stuff to tell if the car has been chipped.

And if the engine blows up, and you have a chip that allows a higher redline, good luck in trying to get warranty coverage.
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  #8  
Old 08-27-2005, 12:41 AM
FlyingDutchMan FlyingDutchMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elyas
I guess it's all relative. I spoke to the guys at Powerchip and they claim that there is no way a dealership can identify if the car was chipped using their product and it would not void any normal warranty unless the upgrade caused the damaged itself (kind of contradictory huh!?!?)

Talk about finger pointing if that happens. . . . . .
Speaking of Powerchips...I understand they have some special software they developed with Discovery automotive that is suppose to be pretty slick. My photographer buddy drove a car equipped with thier software that tuned the guys aftermarket intake to his full SuperSprint exhaust. My friend said that he was blow away with home much low and midrange torque this car had.

These are all areas/options that can be addressed... some I hadn't thought of before

•Removal of Factory 155mph Speed Limiter
•Raised Rev Limiter (You don't need much more RPM though...there isn't any power there.)
•Optimization of A/F Ratios for max hp and bottom end torque
•Special Programming considerations for engine modifications. “Check Engine” light will no longer be activated erroneously.
•Adjustment of Air/Fuel Ratio, Timing Curve and VANOS
•Idle Speed Adjusted for Lightweight Flywheels and Clutches, prevent stalling
•Optimization for specific octane levels: 91, 93, 94 &100 octane race gas.

I was thinking about doing this chip but I can't decide if I want to do it now with the engine totally stock or get a full exhaust/header and intake first. I understand that quite a bit of the gain in the header when you retune the chip for a header and intake together. What is also holding me back is the price of the full Supersprint Exhaust(Appox $4500)... Maybe I could just use the Magnflow system with a SS header($3000), not sure if that will mate up though.

Last edited by FlyingDutchMan; 08-27-2005 at 12:46 AM.
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  #9  
Old 08-27-2005, 04:42 AM
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1) Why??

2) There is power there, the engine is still making a good bit of torque at redline. But youa re running into blown engien territory

3) Like BMW didn't optimze F-A ratios?

4) May help, but modern systems do a pretty good job of that.

5) See both 3 and 4.

6) Only if you put ina LW flywheel.

7) Remember, if you set for 93, 94 or 100 you MUST use that AKI fuel ALL THE TIME. And BTW, around here Sunoco has stopped selling 94. And Sunoco GT100 is actually 96 or 98 AKI.

Sorry, there just isn't a lot of HP in these engines from bolts ons.
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  #10  
Old 08-27-2005, 12:10 PM
FlyingDutchMan FlyingDutchMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
1) Why??.
So you can run the car at top speed? Might be something others are interested in doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
2) There is power there, the engine is still making a good bit of torque at redline. But youa re running into blown engien territory.
IIRC- The DA software only does a 250rpm redline increase, it's really neglible. I don't see much point in bumping the redline myself either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
3) Like BMW didn't optimze F-A ratios?.
True true, BMW did optimize the A-F ratios for the stock components, but once you install headers intakes etc it makes sense to revist the F-A ratios if only to confirm that they are where they need to be after the mods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
4) May help, but modern systems do a pretty good job of that..
I think the check engine light coming on is more an issue for those people running test pipes without cats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
5) See both 3 and 4..
... once you install headers intakes etc it makes sense to revist the A-F Ratro/Vanos/Timing if only to confirm that they are where they need to be after the mods. Headers and intakes may change the airflow characterisitics of the motor and warranty some optimizion or fine tuning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
6) Only if you put ina LW flywheel..
True...optimizing for a lightweight flywheel when you don't have one probably doesn't make much sense. My stock dual mass clutch and flywheel weighed approx. 39 pounds, the new UUC flywheel with the Sacks E34 M3 clutch was only 18pounds. Combine that with the BHS underdrive pulleys I installed at the same time and the motor became bit more responsive as you can imagine. Not really a bolt-on mod but pretty good bang for the buck compared to some of the other stuff I've done and am planning to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
7) Remember, if you set for 93, 94 or 100 you MUST use that AKI fuel ALL THE TIME. And BTW, around here Sunoco has stopped selling 94. And Sunoco GT100 is actually 96 or 98 AKI..
Point taken...this is more an issue for us CA guys were stuck with the 91. East coasters might be able to take advantage of the 93 or 94 they have available. I don't know if you have to use the same octane fuel all the time, I think you could run 91 on a 94 octane program without too much trouble around town if you didn't beat on the car. It would be nice if we all had the 94 available. 91 in car tuned for 100 octane might be pushing it.

Then again, I've poured a gallon of paint thinner(xylene) in the tank of my M3 to see if the increased octane would make any difference. So I might be a little more experiemental than most.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
Sorry, there just isn't a lot of HP in these engines from bolts ons.
No need to apologize...we're not in disagreement on this eiher...especially when you bolt on mods without reconsidering the engine managment/tuning there doesn't seem to be much benefit ---which was kind of the whole point to my post.

People do seem to forget that S54 runs over 100hp per liter at the crank. There are only a couple of other production N/A motors that do that, the S2000 Honda motor being one of them. This actually brings a good question to mind...What is the most powerful(hp/liter) N/A productino engine that runs on pump gas and comes with a warranty. (Excluding motorcycles of course) The S54 has to be in the top 5 right?


We are well into the land of dimisihing returns, especially when you consider you have to spend a few thousand dollars to find even 10-20rwhp. However, I think BMW is ieven ndicating there is a little power to be had hense the CSL and Euro headers.

I am personally more interested in finding some more mid to low range power.

Last edited by FlyingDutchMan; 08-27-2005 at 12:36 PM.
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  #11  
Old 08-29-2005, 05:31 AM
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1) And where do you go over 155? I hope not on the street.

2) And if the engine blows, you just voided your 100K mile warranty on earlier engines, or if under 50K your basic warranty. NOT good.

3) The way systems work, the F/A ratios stay the same with most mods. They are determined by the O2 sensors.

4) Running race pipes on a street registered car is a FEDERAL OFFENSE. CRIMINAL OFFENSE. Smart thing to do. Go to jail for a few HP.

5) See 3.

6) I hjave heard of several people runing LW flywheels without any software changes, so it isn't really needed. Won't hurt, might help a bit, but not really needed.

7) Uuh, it is not Xylene you add, but Toluene to increase octane. And if you feel that having a aftermarket software that it tweaked for 94 is safe to run on 91, you might as well your stock motor on 87. Remember, if the tuner really tweaks the software, they are running RIGHT AT THE EDGE, no room for less than design octane.
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  #12  
Old 08-29-2005, 09:34 AM
FlyingDutchMan FlyingDutchMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
1) And where do you go over 155? I hope not on the street..
Have you ever heard of the Silver State Challenge or the Pony Express road races? Gumball rally, etc. There are sections of public highway in AZ, NV, CA that one can run over 155mph. Fore xample back during the Open Trach Challenge on the section from Pahrump to Willow Springs we ran 155mph on the limiter for nearly 20-30min through Death Valley. Non-speed limited cars ran upwards of 170mph, I got passed by one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
2) And if the engine blows, you just voided your 100K mile warranty on earlier engines, or if under 50K your basic warranty. NOT good..
I don't think a 250rpm readline increase is going to make the difference between engine blowing and not blowing. A lot of peoples warranty periods are coming up anyway. Again that assumes the dealer checks the DME and is looking for a way to deny you warranty service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
3) The way systems work, the F/A ratios stay the same with most mods. They are determined by the O2 sensors..
"Most mods" is key language there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
4) Running race pipes on a street registered car is a FEDERAL OFFENSE. CRIMINAL OFFENSE. Smart thing to do. Go to jail for a few HP..
Do you know anyone that has actually been charged, prosecuted and ordered to do jail time for modding their public road use car? Not to mention it's only criminal if you register the car for use on public roads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
5) See 3..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
6) I hjave heard of several people runing LW flywheels without any software changes, so it isn't really needed. Won't hurt, might help a bit, but not really needed..
I have one, and it could benefit from a little tweek. Adjusting the idle speed to 1000rpm from 850 would be helpful, I also have solid engine mounts and the engine runs much smoother at 1000vs850rpm, less noice and vibration at idle so there would be that benefit too. I think this can be adjuted by the dealer as well, you don't need a DME reprogram for it perse'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
7) Uuh, it is not Xylene you add, but Toluene to increase octane. And if you feel that having a aftermarket software that it tweaked for 94 is safe to run on 91, you might as well your stock motor on 87. Remember, if the tuner really tweaks the software, they are running RIGHT AT THE EDGE, no room for less than design octane.
Better open up that high school chem book again..you can use Xylene also to increase octane level. 100% Pure- Home Depot (Klean Strip Product Number xy24) Bar Code SKU 30192 02425. Toulene will work also boost octane, but I couldn't find pure Toulene- that didn't have additives mixed in already -locally.

From a home improvement perspective, Xylene has a longer working time(doesn't evaporate as fast) compared to Toulene which is why it is substituted there. If you look online there are placed were people posted the formula for calculating how what your net octane level increases to for every gallon of Xylene or Toulene you add per gallon of a given octane gasoline. If recall it was something like one gallon of Xylene, which is effectively 108 octane, with 10 gallons of gasoline give you 96 or 98 average in the tank. I don't remember the exact chemistry of what attached where.

The whole point of modding the car is to maximize the horsepower which implies you'll need to run close to the edge.

I understand that engine modding might not be right for you, but other people demand different things of their cars.
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Old 08-29-2005, 05:34 PM
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1) That is not a public road during the event. It is a closed road/race course, just like Le Mans.

2) It is not the point if it really makes a difference in engine life, if you are still under warranty, and BMW NA reads the DME, which they frequently do, you are out the cost of the engine and labor.

3) As in bolt on mods, if you start doing much more than that, you ought to switch to a Motec Alpha N system. Much more HP available and more tunable.

4) Yes there have been some. And if it is not street registered, then why are you running the stock system anyway, see 3.

6) So nice, but not required. TYW Conforti has teh same choice.

7) Toluene is some 110 octane, and generally used for octane boost. In fact at times F1 cars ran on pretty much pure toluene. Pretty easily obtainable in most any decent sized city. Reason you don't find it at Home Depot is due to carcinognenicity.

And if you are going to mod the engine, then MOD it. Don't bolt on a few parts and be like a ricer.
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  #14  
Old 08-29-2005, 06:08 PM
FlyingDutchMan FlyingDutchMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
1) That is not a public road during the event. It is a closed road/race course, just like Le Mans.



7) Toluene is some 110 octane, and generally used for octane boost. In fact at times F1 cars ran on pretty much pure toluene. Pretty easily obtainable in most any decent sized city. Reason you don't find it at Home Depot is due to carcinognenicity.

And if you are going to mod the engine, then MOD it. Don't bolt on a few parts and be like a ricer.
What...how does installing headers, exhaust, intake, and a DME program to bring it all together make one a "ricer?" If one "MOD'S"' the engine vs 'mod's" the engine I'll need to buy the same intake, header, and exhaust anyway. You keep/reuse parts when its time for a rebuild and a "MOD" motor. Only the DME reprogram isn't reusable, but that's the cheapest part of the package.

Good info on the Toulene, explains why it isn't easily available at commerical DIY place like HD.

OTC has public sections.
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Old 08-30-2005, 05:31 AM
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Why not drop a Motec on the car now, and start getting REAL engine management. According to a PTG engine builder, blueprinting, and a Motec is good for about 380 out of the car.

WHich headers? The only ones worth really doing are the BMW Motorsports headers.

Basic headers, intake, exhaust do not really need DME program,a nd stock DME reprogram isn't capable of doing that much.
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Old 08-30-2005, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
Why not drop a Motec on the car now, and start getting REAL engine management. According to a PTG engine builder, blueprinting, and a Motec is good for about 380 out of the car.

WHich headers? The only ones worth really doing are the BMW Motorsports headers.

Basic headers, intake, exhaust do not really need DME program,a nd stock DME reprogram isn't capable of doing that much.
Say I do a Motec/Blueprint would you still use headers and an intake on that. What does a motec run just for hardware. Do you have a link to a dealer. I believe 380hp with a Motoct stuff, assuming you mean at the crank right, but at what RPM(8800) and what does the rest of the power curve look like, does it give away all the bottom end torque. I'm afraid that would run more like a e34 M5 I6 motor. Is that set up doing to require a 3.91 or 4.10 gear because the power curve has shift to far up the rpm band?

Tell me more about what you know about the BMW motorsport headers vs. SS/BHS/Evosport. When you say BMW motorsport is that the same as what people are calling a Euro or CSL header? I think some people might use those names interchangalby.

Thanks for your input in advance
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Old 09-04-2005, 09:23 AM
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Call PTG in Winchester, VA.

Using a Motec, yes you would use headers, I would talk to PTG about BMW Motorposrt headers. No the Euro header is the stock type header, but without the cats. The only difference between the US and rest of the world cars, is our cats are in the headers to meet EPA cold start emissions regulations. In teh rest of the world, the cats are after the header. The BMW Motorsport headers are larger and tuned length for the use.

With the motec you will replace the airbox with one with a BIG hole. No mass airflow meter, etc. Just hook up a BIG cone filter and feed it cold air.
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Old 09-04-2005, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
Call PTG in Winchester, VA.

Using a Motec, yes you would use headers, I would talk to PTG about BMW Motorposrt headers. No the Euro header is the stock type header, but without the cats. The only difference between the US and rest of the world cars, is our cats are in the headers to meet EPA cold start emissions regulations. In teh rest of the world, the cats are after the header. The BMW Motorsport headers are larger and tuned length for the use.

With the motec you will replace the airbox with one with a BIG hole. No mass airflow meter, etc. Just hook up a BIG cone filter and feed it cold air.
Good info. I was just doing some research on the CSL vs the Euro header and it appears as though after 3/2005 production of the European M3, the standard European M3 now uses the CSL headers. Its the same part number.

I'll try and get some info on the Motorsport header, I haven't found any pics yet.

Sander
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Old 09-04-2005, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elyas
I guess it's all relative. I spoke to the guys at Powerchip and they claim that there is no way a dealership can identify if the car was chipped using their product and it would not void any normal warranty unless the upgrade caused the damaged itself (kind of contradictory huh!?!?)

Talk about finger pointing if that happens. . . . . .

What else are they going to say? "Yes sir, if you change the ECU to our program you will experience reliability problems and BMW will definitely be able to tell we messed with it so kiss your warranty good bye." Of course they are going that's it's great and won't cause problems, they do want you to buy it.
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Old 07-10-2011, 04:03 AM
trevolution1989 trevolution1989 is offline
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warranties are there for a good reason yes but buying performance parts to have a little fun is all good

Last edited by trevolution1989; 07-10-2011 at 04:07 AM.
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  #21  
Old 08-11-2011, 07:31 AM
cali311soca cali311soca is offline
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Unless something is installed by the dealer, then most likely it voids the warranty. Best bet is to ask the dealership if you can buy it and have it installed by them while keeping your warranty. Not very likely but worth a shot.
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Old 08-11-2011, 10:18 AM
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Thread started- 08-16-2005, 08:22 PM
Thread died- 09-04-2005, 05:15 PM
Revived- 07-10-2011, 04:03 AM
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