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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #51  
Old 08-30-2011, 03:23 PM
XeroxGuy XeroxGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boilers93 View Post
WINNAR!!! By the way, I am starting to question whether or not the real issue isn't Minnetonka BMW. Did you authorize them to spend 2k in diagnostic (how the heck!!! do you do that) before they did so? I thought 2k is what they wanted to fix it. Is this what they are saying you are on the hook for them already?
I have not authorized any spend as of today. The 5 page service document they forwarded me shows a $0 balance for everything they've done to date.

If it would be helpful to the group, I am certainly willing to post the service descriptions from all 5 pages. I have yet to receive a call from the selling GM...

Would it help to get on the horn with BMWNA Financial? They are the finance company on the vehicle. Just looking at any options I might have here.
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  #52  
Old 08-30-2011, 03:38 PM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XeroxGuy View Post

About 200 miles into the drive, the SES light illuminated on the dash.
Bit of a sticky wicket....: Did you buy 'as-is,' or was the vehicle represented to be in good working order?

Crucial, really.
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  #53  
Old 08-30-2011, 03:59 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XeroxGuy View Post
I have not authorized any spend as of today. The 5 page service document they forwarded me shows a $0 balance for everything they've done to date.

If it would be helpful to the group, I am certainly willing to post the service descriptions from all 5 pages. I have yet to receive a call from the selling GM...

Would it help to get on the horn with BMWNA Financial? They are the finance company on the vehicle. Just looking at any options I might have here.
I don't mind reading the full report, though I think we have knowledgeable folks here that can interpret it, I am not one of them.

Is the car repaired and ready for pick up?
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  #54  
Old 08-30-2011, 04:13 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
You were under the assumption the SA at the Minnesota dealer was correct the SES light was caused by mice, and as such the original dealer could not have known the issue existed.
Given what the OP had provided initially that would be correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
My point is, once all the documents are presented, it is very possible the SES light could have been caused by other issues than chewed-up wires.
I would agree, specifically the hose from the gas filler neck to the fuel pump module as described on page five:

"Smoke tested system, found a leak coming from the hose from the gas filler neck T the fuel pump module. There are damaged wires. Damage is from a rodent and is not covered by warranty."

The chewed up wires appear to be an observation discovered while troubleshooting the problem rather than the cause of the problem. I specifically asked the OP about this in post number 45.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
If it can be reasonably established that a lot of the things that were discovered and repaired could have triggered the SES light, would you still think the initial SA's statement was correct that the SES light was caused by mice chewing on the wires?
I'm not sure where you get "...a lot of the things that were discovered and repaired..." from. How I read post number 43 is BMW of Minnetonka went through a diagnosis process of testing and replacing various items in an effort to troubleshoot the problem. Replacement of various items does not mean the replaced parts were faulty but rather a means to eliminate them as the problem. It's a common troubleshooting technique and the fact they did not solve the problem implies they were not the problem.

With that said I'm not sure where you going with this. Can you shed some insight as to what you're thinking?
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  #55  
Old 08-30-2011, 04:21 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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As you have pointed out, the report does not even fault the damaged wires for the SES light. How can we take the SA's words for it, when he was reading the same report, but telling the OP a conclusion that the report did not make?
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  #56  
Old 08-30-2011, 04:38 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
As you have pointed out, the report does not even fault the damaged wires for the SES light. How can we take the SA's words for it, when he was reading the same report, but telling the OP a conclusion that the report did not make?
How do we know the SA reached an incorrect conclusion? The possibility exists this is what the OP heard or wrote and not what the SA said.

Last edited by sunny5280; 08-30-2011 at 04:39 PM.
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  #57  
Old 08-30-2011, 04:50 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
How do we know the SA reached an incorrect conclusion? The possibility exists this is what the OP heard or wrote and not what the SA said.
Of course it is possible the OP misread the SA, but my bet is the SA was simply BSing

Sometimes we need expert help sorting out all the BS.
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  #58  
Old 08-30-2011, 05:46 PM
chrisk03 chrisk03 is offline
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How the heck can the SA tell if it was a mouse, or anything for that matter, that chewed the wire? If he's checking from underneath the car, looking up, is it incorrect to think that there is no way he could see this? Picture this, the mouse is not hanging upside down chewing the wire more than likely, he would have to chew it from standing on top of the wire or wire harness, so the damage would be ON TOP. Again, there is no way the SA could see this from below. Furthermore, the SA specifically states that during the smoke test he found "the leak coming from the hose..." and then to what appears to me to throw in damaged wires. I'm not a mechanic, but common sense would lead me to believe that a leaking hose near the gas neck or fuel pump would cause the SES light to come on. Just sounds like an odd conclusion and reached very quickly with very little way for you to defend yourself. Did the SA take a picture? Can he show you the damaged wire?

Now, with THAT being said, if he does show you and it looks "chewed" or there is no way for you to confirm what happened, plead your case to BMW Corporate and ASK for a goodwill repair. Let your SA know you are going to do this and see if he/she will help you with the goodwill request. Lay the story down for them again and tell them you are a first time BMW owner, yada, yada, sob story, etc., HA, and hope they are in a good mood that day and accept/offer you a goodwill repair. Honda actually did this for me once on a used car that was OUT of warranty by about 3000 miles. It was a synchro issue which would have cost about the same as your being quoted for this wire repair.

Anyway, sorry to hear about your story, totally sucks when you are excited about your new purchase, and hope you get worked out. Good luck.
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Last edited by chrisk03; 08-30-2011 at 05:48 PM.
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  #59  
Old 08-30-2011, 05:58 PM
XeroxGuy XeroxGuy is offline
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Alright guys, not a lot of updates on my end. I did receive a PM from the previous owner (verified from title BMW sent me and his info/rep on the other board) which he indicated "That was most likely my old car. I'm not sure why you're having issues. The only thing I had done on the car was a rear tailight then the HPFP under warranty (wasn't necessary) and the six injectors replaced.

Interesting comments in regards to the local SA and potential conflicts with the "mouse" story. I've decided to upload the service info from BMW Minnetonka for your thoughts. If there is reason to believe this is not the issue, or that I should take it to another local BMW dealer to inspect, I am open to that. I have blocked out my contact info, the SA's contact info, VIN, etc. All of the pertinent information should be included. While the original fax was 5 pages, the first was a cover so I didn't not include it here.

Looking forward to some analysis.

Thanks

Doug
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  #60  
Old 08-30-2011, 06:51 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Of course it is possible the OP misread the SA, but my bet is the SA was simply BSing
Why? Do you have some reason to believe the SA is being dishonest? IMO the more reasonable explanation is a miscommunication between the SA and OP. And what does any of this have to do with the selling dealer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Sometimes we need expert help sorting out all the BS.
What value would an expert add? The paperwork appears to clearly have stated what the problem was.

Last edited by sunny5280; 08-30-2011 at 06:56 PM.
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  #61  
Old 08-30-2011, 06:55 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XeroxGuy View Post
Alright guys, not a lot of updates on my end. I did receive a PM from the previous owner (verified from title BMW sent me and his info/rep on the other board) which he indicated "That was most likely my old car. I'm not sure why you're having issues. The only thing I had done on the car was a rear tailight then the HPFP under warranty (wasn't necessary) and the six injectors replaced.

Interesting comments in regards to the local SA and potential conflicts with the "mouse" story. I've decided to upload the service info from BMW Minnetonka for your thoughts. If there is reason to believe this is not the issue, or that I should take it to another local BMW dealer to inspect, I am open to that. I have blocked out my contact info, the SA's contact info, VIN, etc. All of the pertinent information should be included. While the original fax was 5 pages, the first was a cover so I didn't not include it here.

Looking forward to some analysis.
I'm not really sure what the issue is any longer. It appears the problem setting the SES was identified and fixed under warranty. Is the SES still being set?
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  #62  
Old 08-30-2011, 07:14 PM
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dalekressin dalekressin is offline
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Doug,
Wow I feel bad for you. I have been looking at Certified cars out of state and your problem is tremendously upsetting.
I would find out if there is a law in MO that covers recently sold cars.
I would have an attorney speak on my behalf with the selling dealership GM.
Man I hope this can get a clear resolution.
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  #63  
Old 08-30-2011, 07:22 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Why? Do you have some reason to believe the SA is being dishonest? IMO the more reasonable explanation is a miscommunication between the SA and OP. And what does any of this have to do with the selling dealer?
BSing is not automatically being dishonest. I even said earlier, sometimes people say things without putting much thought into it.

SAs are often under stress, they need to wrap up one repair and move on to the next. Often times the answer was chosen so that the customer would stop asking followup questions.

Quote:
What value would an expert add? The paperwork appears to clearly have stated what the problem was.
Since you have valued the dealer's expertise at such a high level, it would not surprise me the other side could find some high value from their own expert work, if such evaluation is necessary.

Let me also point out that given what we have learned from the many issues people had reported on their CPO cars and how dealers had cut corners in the certification process, if I were you, I would not even value a dealer's repair report so highly.
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  #64  
Old 08-30-2011, 07:23 PM
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Chop362 Chop362 is offline
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I don't have much time but read your post...Make someone pay for this!! for this is wrong but the seller should be on the hook here or tell them to take it back or else you'll be contacting your lawyer asap.Good luck to you....Mice?? wtf!!
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  #65  
Old 08-30-2011, 07:37 PM
XeroxGuy XeroxGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
I'm not really sure what the issue is any longer. It appears the problem setting the SES was identified and fixed under warranty. Is the SES still being set?
I should clarify. The documentation I provided is all service from BMW of Minnetonka since I purchased the vehicle. The first service visit they performed a number of repairs and reset the SES light thinking they had resolved the issue. When the SES light returned less than 2 days later, I returned and they went back to troubleshooting the problem. They had the vehicle the 2nd time from Thursday morning until Monday morning (yesterday) when they "located" the wires that were damaged and which they've indicated is causing the errors and illuminating the SES light. The SA believes the work completed to date to resolve the issue was unnecessary and the actual problem is the damaged wires caused by rodents (mice).

As of this evening, a formal complaint has been filed with the Attorney General of MO and the BBB. Since the selling GM will not return my calls, I felt this was an appropriate next step as I weigh my options.
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  #66  
Old 08-30-2011, 08:14 PM
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bmw_n00b13 bmw_n00b13 is offline
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Get a quote from a known reliable independent before forking over $2k in repairs. It is entirely unnecessary to pay a dealer to do work that is out of warranty. (unless you can't find the dealer coffee anywhere else and need a fix).

I kinda think that you're SOL for getting the dealer to help you. The local dealer is evidently a different breed
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  #67  
Old 08-30-2011, 08:32 PM
XeroxGuy XeroxGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
Bit of a sticky wicket....: Did you buy 'as-is,' or was the vehicle represented to be in good working order?

Crucial, really.
The vehicle was represented to be in excellent working order, as per the conversation with the dealer and the provided CPO report. The CPO report had minor cosmetic touch ups that they performed but nothing that would indicate any SES or other errors.
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  #68  
Old 08-30-2011, 08:34 PM
XeroxGuy XeroxGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by bmw_n00b13 View Post
Get a quote from a known reliable independent before forking over $2k in repairs. It is entirely unnecessary to pay a dealer to do work that is out of warranty. (unless you can't find the dealer coffee anywhere else and need a fix).

I kinda think that you're SOL for getting the dealer to help you. The local dealer is evidently a different breed
Thats my gut feel here as well. We will see if the Attorney General complaint or BBB complaint gets them to act. I'm not optimistic at this point since even BMWNA couldn't get him to call me back. If I have to write it off as a loss, I will probably ask the other local BMW shop to take a look first and give me their opinion, and if its the same case, go to an independent shop to get a quote for the repairs as well.

Still hoping these guys come through and do the right thing though...
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  #69  
Old 08-30-2011, 08:45 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XeroxGuy View Post
I should clarify. The documentation I provided is all service from BMW of Minnetonka since I purchased the vehicle. The first service visit they performed a number of repairs and reset the SES light thinking they had resolved the issue. When the SES light returned less than 2 days later, I returned and they went back to troubleshooting the problem. They had the vehicle the 2nd time from Thursday morning until Monday morning (yesterday) when they "located" the wires that were damaged and which they've indicated is causing the errors and illuminating the SES light. The SA believes the work completed to date to resolve the issue was unnecessary and the actual problem is the damaged wires caused by rodents (mice).

As of this evening, a formal complaint has been filed with the Attorney General of MO and the BBB. Since the selling GM will not return my calls, I felt this was an appropriate next step as I weigh my options.
Which party did you file the complaint against?
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  #70  
Old 08-30-2011, 08:52 PM
XeroxGuy XeroxGuy is offline
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Which party did you file the complaint against?
Both complaints were filed against Suntrup BMW.
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  #71  
Old 08-30-2011, 09:03 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Originally Posted by XeroxGuy View Post
Both complaints were filed against Suntrup BMW.
Good luck!

I still recommend taking the documents to consult a attorney, initial consultation should be free. It is often a very educational event, even if the answer is not desirable, at least you know where you stand.

Last edited by dtc100; 08-30-2011 at 09:07 PM.
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  #72  
Old 08-31-2011, 02:20 AM
Melrose Melrose is offline
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Go for repurchase. The KCBMWCCA just got done touring the local sponsor and when I saw what they had to do to replace the central wiring harness in a 2007 328xi, it was unbelieveable. Even the trunk had to be taken out. Could send pictures of the car eviscerated.
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  #73  
Old 08-31-2011, 05:25 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
BSing is not automatically being dishonest. I even said earlier, sometimes people say things without putting much thought into it.

SAs are often under stress, they need to wrap up one repair and move on to the next. Often times the answer was chosen so that the customer would stop asking followup questions.
I'm not sure why you have such a low opinion of this SA. From everything the OP has written he seems to be knowledgeable and helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Since you have valued the dealer's expertise at such a high level, it would not surprise me the other side could find some high value from their own expert work, if such evaluation is necessary.
I can only go by what the OP has revealed in this thread. From what he has provided I have no reason to question this SA. Especially now that the OP has clarified the SA believes the fault lies with the damaged wiring. However until the wiring is replaced we won't know for certain. Do you have some reason to doubt what the SA said?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Let me also point out that given what we have learned from the many issues people had reported on their CPO cars and how dealers had cut corners in the certification process, if I were you, I would not even value a dealer's repair report so highly.
I place little value in a BMW CPO vehicle for the reason you've just described. However in this instance I cannot see how the CPO inspection would have identified the damaged wiring. According to the paperwork uploaded by the OP the wiring is located behind the rear wheel liner and thus not visible unless the liner is removed. Why do you believe the CPO process would have caught this wiring issue? Can you point to the specific CPO checklist item which would have led the person performing the inspection to find the wiring damage?
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  #74  
Old 08-31-2011, 05:26 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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Originally Posted by XeroxGuy View Post
I should clarify. The documentation I provided is all service from BMW of Minnetonka since I purchased the vehicle.
That was my understanding, thanks for confirming.
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  #75  
Old 08-31-2011, 05:41 AM
hockeyfox hockeyfox is offline
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If you want a 3rd party opinion, contact Orr Autosport in Eden Prairie - 952.922.1797. They come highly recommended to me by a friend and will be doing my out of warranty work.
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