Really Bad Start for a First Time 335i Buyer

Originally Posted by sunny5280

Why? Do you have some reason to believe the SA is being dishonest?
.

What is the reason to believe that the SA is honest? Or maybe he is honest but his technical stuff and himself are clueless (happened before with simpler problems)?
May be Sunny is a lucky one who had a wonderful experience with his SAs and has a total trust in them.
In OPs case I would doubt everything, at least until i get the second opinion (preferably not from BMW dealer). 2 grand of damage and the car is still perfectly driveable? Hmm...

Sorry to say, but if you had researched Sunturp BMW locally, you would have never done business with them. Good luck with your other options, but don't count on Sunturp BMW to work with you. I believe your only option with BMW will be with BMWNA.

Originally Posted by 55

What is the reason to believe that the SA is honest? Or maybe he is honest but his technical stuff and himself are clueless (happened before with simpler problems)?

I like to think people are honest and knowledgeable unless given a reason otherwise. So far I have seen no reason to think otherwise.

+1 on the work in Eden Prairie

Originally Posted by sunny5280

I like to think people are honest and knowledgeable unless given a reason otherwise. So far I have seen no reason to think otherwise.

I didn't say they were dishonest or clueless. But the issue was clearly complex enough to the point they thought they had found and fixed the problem at least twice, but was WRONG twice.

Would you recommend the OP pay the $2K to have them redo the wiring, knowing yourself it might not fix the issue?

Originally Posted by dtc100

I didn't say they were dishonest or clueless. But the issue was clearly complex enough to the point they thought they had found and fixed the problem at least twice, but was WRONG twice.

A common troubleshooting methodology is to substitute / replace parts suspected of causing a problem in an effort to eliminate them or fix the problem.

When I bought my current X5 the SEL was illuminated. Before purchasing I spoke with my indy about the possible causes for the code that was set. He said it could be spark plugs, coils, CPS, vacuum leak, and a couple of other things. He couldn't say exactly what the fix would be because there were a number of things which could cause the problem.

After giving him the OK he set off using a methodical approach of investigating each of these items in an effort to resolve the problem. First up was replacing the spark plugs. Didn't solve the problem. The next was swapping coils (code was an engine misfire on a couple of cylinders). That didn't work. The next step was to swap the CPS. That didn't work. Then he started looking for vacuum leaks.

And what did he find? The oil separator hoses had become mushy and split which exposed the system to the atmosphere. Now I could have said "No, don't replace them because the first three things you tried didn't work so I have no faith replacing these hoses will solve the problem". But I didn't I authorized him to replace the hoses and the problem was fixed.

My point? The procedure being used by the dealership is common and not a reflection of the competency of the service facility (assuming they're replacing parts related to the specific issue).

Originally Posted by dtc100

Would you recommend the OP pay the $2K to have them redo the wiring, knowing yourself it might not fix the issue?

Yes. If the wiring is damaged it needs to be replaced regardless if it ultimately turns out to be the problem or not. Just like the oil separator hoses on my X5. Regardless if they were the problem or not they needed to be replaced.

Originally Posted by sunny5280

A common troubleshooting methodology is to substitute / replace parts suspected of causing a problem in an effort to eliminate them or fix the problem.

When I bought my current X5 the SEL was illuminated. Before purchasing I spoke with my indy about the possible causes for the code that was set. He said it could be spark plugs, coils, CPS, vacuum leak, and a couple of other things. He couldn't say exactly what the fix would be because there were a number of things which could cause the problem.

After giving him the OK he set off using a methodical approach of investigating each of these items in an effort to resolve the problem. First up was replacing the spark plugs. Didn't solve the problem. The next was swapping coils (code was an engine misfire on a couple of cylinders). That didn't work. The next step was to swap the CPS. That didn't work. Then he started looking for vacuum leaks.

And what did he find? The oil separator hoses had become mushy and split which exposed the system to the atmosphere. Now I could have said "No, don't replace them because the first three things you tried didn't work so I have no faith replacing these hoses will solve the problem". But I didn't I authorized him to replace the hoses and the problem was fixed.

My point? The procedure being used by the dealership is common and not a reflection of the competency of the service facility (assuming they're replacing parts related to the specific issue).



Yes. If the wiring is damaged it needs to be replaced regardless if it ultimately turns out to be the problem or not. Just like the oil separator hoses on my X5. Regardless if they were the problem or not they needed to be replaced.

I would take the car to a indy shop for a second opinion before handing over the $2K. But even before that, I would seek legal advice.

The repair dealer continued to find defective parts and fixing them, until they found a reason not to fix under the CPO warranty. A lot of codes were thrown during the repairs. Did the selling dealer not find any of the issues when they CPOed the car? Would you trust the selling dealer at this point?

If not, why should you trust the repair dealer without seeking a second opinion?

Originally Posted by dtc100

I would take the car to a indy shop for a second opinion before handing over the $2K. But even before that, I would seek legal advice.

This seems to be a fairly easy problem to verify. The OP could be taken into the shop and shown the damaged wires.

Originally Posted by dtc100

The repair dealer continued to find defective parts and fixing them, until they found a reason not to fix under the CPO warranty. A lot of codes were thrown during the repairs.

It seems you're not familiar with substitution / replacement as a means to troubleshoot. I thought my X5 example was fairly clear. What about it did you not understand?

Originally Posted by dtc100

Did the selling dealer not find any of the issues when they CPOed the car? Would you trust the selling dealer at this point?

The question is: Was the selling dealer aware of the problem? I have seen nothing to demonstrate they knew of this problem and didn't disclose it.

Originally Posted by dtc100

If not, why should you trust the repair dealer without seeking a second opinion?

I've seen no reason to distrust the repairing dealer.

Originally Posted by sunny5280

This seems to be a fairly easy problem to verify. The OP could be taken into the shop and shown the damaged wires.

But do you know for sure it is a $2k repair job, or a $200 job? If it is such a easy thing to verify, why did you say you would hand over the dealer that $2k without a second opinion?

I know the repair shop needs to isolate the issue one by one. But my experience has been the same described by the OP, when the warranty work gets too expensive, the dealers tend to try to convince you it is insurance repair from now on. My experience is, most of the time it is not.

If there is another root cause of the SES codes, after the mice encounter is repaired, any other expense should be covered by the original factory warranty or the CPO warranty....

Originally Posted by anE934fun

If there is another root cause of the SES codes, after the mice encounter is repaired, any other expense should be covered by the original factory warranty or the CPO warranty....

Personally I would not count on such luck. It seemed to me they were a little fed up and were done with warranty repairs on the car. I would seek additional advice for my own protection sooner rather than later.

Originally Posted by dtc100

But do you know for sure it is a $2k repair job, or a $200 job? If it is such a easy thing to verify, why did you say you would hand over the dealer that $2k without a second opinion?

The cost of the repair is irrelevant wrt if the repair needs to be done or not. You've been arguing the repair is unnecessary have you not?

Originally Posted by dtc100

I know the repair shop needs to isolate the issue one by one. But my experience has been the same described by the OP, when the warranty work gets too expensive, the dealers tend to try to convince you it is insurance repair from now on. My experience is, most of the time it is not.

If mice chewed through the wires it's not a warranty issue. Why people continue to blame the manufacturer / dealer for malicious mice is puzzling.

Originally Posted by dtc100

Personally I would not count on such luck. It seemed to me they were a little fed up and were done with warranty repairs on the car. I would seek additional advice for my own protection sooner rather than later.

What protection? All the SA has to do is walk the OP out to the shop floor and show him the damaged wiring. One doesn't need to be an expert in electronics or vehicle repair to understand the damage. It is pretty much self evident once it's been identified.

Once the OP has been shown the damaged wiring he can make the call if he wants to get it repaired and, if he opts to do so, where. I'm puzzled by this conspiracy you think the SA is trying to pull over on the OP.

I think you are SOL with Suntrup. Why would they deal with you when the chances of you doing any future business with them is non-existent? You should probably plead your case with your home BMW shop's service manager to see if he/she will cut you a break on their hourly shop rate in return for all your future service business. If they give you a break on price call up the GM at Suntrup and see if he/she will split it with you to make you go away and stop putting up bad press on the internet.

This is a much smaller case but when I bought my 335 I didn't notice a bubble in the sidewall until I got home with it. The dealer tried to accuse me of hitting a curb in the 5 mile journey from the lot to my garage but in the end he ended up splitting the $375 with me to fix the tire. However, he has some chance of doing business with me in the future where Suntrup doesn't with you. I really don't think you have a chance in court unless you can prove they knew about the wire condition prior to your purchase. Without a service record stating such you are pretty much screwed there. This is just bad luck, unfortunately, and you are going to have to rely on mercy from the selling dealer or your repairing dealer. Sorry to hear it but just get it fixed and forget about it. Hopefully it isn't a bigger issue.

Btw I would not just assume since it is a used car it is no longer covered by your state's lemon law.

Many states' lemon laws do not cover used cars even if they have additional warranty coverage, but make exceptions for those that are still covered by the "original manufacture warranty."

Good suggestion by hockeyfox, take to an Indy and get a second opinion. If they come to a different conclusion that could be helpful to you. Good luck!

My tinfoil hat conspiracy theory is that BMW is now deploying legions of mice to draw attention away from lingering HPFP/fuel system issues in '07/'08 335s. But I might be crazy. ;-)

Thought I would post an update to the forums to keep everyone current on the situation.

I have yet to receive a call from anyone at Suntrup regarding the situation. I have given up they will directly contact me at this point.

About an hour ago the SA from Minnetonka BMW called and let me know he received a note from his co-worker that a person by the name of Mac Williams contacted them asking for pictures of the damage to be sent to him. Funny thing, he didn't even provide a phone number to be called back at, or ask any specifics about the damage. In addition, his email address provided to Minnetonka BMW is a personal yahoo account completely unrelated to the dealership...

Anyway, I'm not sure if my formal complaint with the BBB or AG last night got to them already and thats why they reached out. Not very promising they didn't discuss any details with Minnetonka BMW, provide a return phone number, and used a personal email address.

A google search shows this name matches the Service Manager of Suntrup BMW.

Unless something magical happens tomorrow, I'm planning to pick the vehicle up and take it to an indy for a 2nd opinion.

My 2 cents. I'm in the corporate branding business and Certified Pre-Owned BMW is supposed to mean something. If you go to the website the terminology BMW uses to sell the concept include: "One of the smartest purchases you can make," "...thoroughly inspected by a BMW-trained technician...," "...a comprehensive certification process that includes rigorous criteria and meticulously performed procedures." I'm having trouble seeing how this car made it through this "gauntlet of excellence" (my terminology.)

If a Certified Pre-Owned BMW is immediately throwing codes, requires multiple part replacements, and the manager of the dealership that sold it won't even return a phone call, my question for BMW is: What good is a Certified Pre-Owned BMW? Used car buyers have been getting this kind of treatment for decades. It seems to me BMW should work with the original dealer to make this right for the buyer, even if it means eating (pun intended) the wiring. Because this makes me question the value of the CPO concept. To be clear - I put this on the dealership, not BMW, but perhaps BMW NA needs to be the grownups here and make sure that their dealer stands up to the promises of their CPO product.

Originally Posted by noho335

My 2 cents. I'm in the corporate branding business and Certified Pre-Owned BMW is supposed to mean something. If you go to the website the terminology BMW uses to sell the concept include: "One of the smartest purchases you can make," "...thoroughly inspected by a BMW-trained technician...," "...a comprehensive certification process that includes rigorous criteria and meticulously performed procedures." I'm having trouble seeing how this car made it through this "gauntlet of excellence" (my terminology.)

If a Certified Pre-Owned BMW is immediately throwing codes, requires multiple part replacements, and the manager of the dealership that sold it won't even return a phone call, my question for BMW is: What good is a Certified Pre-Owned BMW? Used car buyers have been getting this kind of treatment for decades. It seems to me BMW should work with the original dealer to make this right for the buyer, even if it means eating (pun intended) the wiring. Because this makes me question the value of the CPO concept. To be clear - I put this on the dealership, not BMW, but perhaps BMW NA needs to be the grownups here and make sure that their dealer stands up to the promises of their CPO product.

I think you are 99% correct, noho335. The 1% is that I think it falls on BMWNA, and not the dealer. BMW slapped CPO on it. That means something. If the dealer followed BMW's certification process, the burden shifts to BMWNA. That's the caveat, though. If the dealer knew about it, it falls on the dealer.

A suggestion to the OP - work with BMWNA and the dealer and stand your ground. Contact an attorney when all else fails. I am sure there will be at least one that will be willing to help.

Originally Posted by noho335

If a Certified Pre-Owned BMW is immediately throwing codes, requires multiple part replacements, and the manager of the dealership that sold it won't even return a phone call, my question for BMW is: What good is a Certified Pre-Owned BMW? Used car buyers have been getting this kind of treatment for decades. It seems to me BMW should work with the original dealer to make this right for the buyer, even if it means eating (pun intended) the wiring. Because this makes me question the value of the CPO concept. To be clear - I put this on the dealership, not BMW, but perhaps BMW NA needs to be the grownups here and make sure that their dealer stands up to the promises of their CPO product.

Why do people keep saying this? It didn't require multiple parts replacement. Multiple parts were replaced in an effort to fix the problem. Obviously since the problem still exits those parts replaced were not the problem.

But I agree with you on the CPO certification. I've previously stated I put little value in it.

Maybe my post on BMW's Facebook page will generate some interest.

It seems that the OP has a legitimate gripe, but my eyes glazed over at the length of his post. A record? He should change is user name to Tolstoy. Good luck on a resolution (really).

Originally Posted by sunny5280

Why do people keep saying this? It didn't require multiple parts replacement. Multiple parts were replaced in an effort to fix the problem. Obviously since the problem still exits those parts replaced were not the problem.

But I agree with you on the CPO certification. I've previously stated I put little value in it.

If you put little value in the BMW CPO certification, then you are basically admitting that what the high value BMW claims about its CPO certification, is false advertising.

Here I present to you a strong case of false advertising. BMW must be very glad you are not defending them in court

Originally Posted by dtc100

If you put little value in the BMW CPO certification, then you are basically admitting that what the high value BMW claims about its CPO certification, is false advertising.

Here I present to you a strong case of false advertising. BMW must be very glad you are not defending them in court

I'm glad you hold me in such high esteem as to warrant a charge of false advertising against a major corporation merely because of my opinion. However my opinion doesn't equate to false advertising on the behalf of BMW and their CPO program.