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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #26  
Old 09-14-2011, 08:56 PM
fplanner2000 fplanner2000 is offline
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Dunderhi - I believe my 550ix has those 20-way seats as part of the M-package, so it IS possible with the right package.

bmw_e - I am presuming you are not being very serious in your comments, because a 550ix stock will eat a stock M-3 0-60 all day long. Its not about the horsepower, but at what point max torque is applied. With the 550, its 1750-5000rpm; the 3 is at 5000 rpm +/-. Your conclusions of "true horsepower" are therefore pretty much not just incorrect, but in fact exactly backwards, or so it might appear!! - I guess you were using "new math"?

BTW, I drove M-3s and M-5s in SC last month for 2 days at the M-performance school. My 550ix is noticeably faster 0-60. No Dinan, no other tricks, just straight up. I agree with highyo, which is why I bought a 550ix w/M-package. May do Dinan down the road if I get a wild hair, but 0-60 in about 4 1/2 seconds is plenty fast for me, and as I learned from my experience at the BMW Performance Center, both faster and smoother than the M-3s and M-5s to that speed.

Just my 2 cents.....
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  #27  
Old 09-14-2011, 09:27 PM
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dunderhi dunderhi is offline
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I have 18-way with mine. Do you have adjustable side bolsters?
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  #28  
Old 09-14-2011, 09:42 PM
bmw_enthusiasm bmw_enthusiasm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fplanner2000 View Post
Dunderhi - I believe my 550ix has those 20-way seats as part of the M-package, so it IS possible with the right package.

bmw_e - I am presuming you are not being very serious in your comments, because a 550ix stock will eat a stock M-3 0-60 all day long. Its not about the horsepower, but at what point max torque is applied. With the 550, its 1750-5000rpm; the 3 is at 5000 rpm +/-.


Just my 2 cents.....
Well..can you see the 550xi is extra 800+ pounds?
5000rpm on the M3 is nothing because it revs up regularly up there between 5 and 8
so it will just be more 'angry' but the horsepower will be there..
well..the torque is always more on the 550xi of course but not as much as it seems.
it will still kick M3 at the beginning but on the end line M3 will prevail..
do you have any doubts about that?

numbers are talking...414hp vs 400...on an 800 pound extra car...
whats up with that?

another thought...
if I put you on a motorcycle that has no much torque and on a building thats torqy and runs on wheels fast at the same speed
which one will it 'feel' faster?
vs be actually faster...
I can't imagine the answer...any help?

Last edited by bmw_enthusiasm; 09-14-2011 at 09:45 PM.
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  #29  
Old 09-14-2011, 10:13 PM
fplanner2000 fplanner2000 is offline
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D- to be honest with you, I haven't even BEGUN to figure out all the car buttons, let alone the seat ones!! You are probably correct - I'm a number of weeks away from getting to counting the number of seat adjustments, so I guess 18 will have to do so far. I am now curious so that maybe this weekend if I get the chance I will further investigate this.

bmw_e - I think we're pretty much saying the same thing - the 550ix will beat the M-3 0-60, but that the M-3 will beat the 550 from 60-120 and possibly from 0-120 using your weight discussion points. My point was that I am comfortable with that, since the vast majority of my driving will be from 0-60.
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  #30  
Old 09-14-2011, 10:25 PM
bmw_enthusiasm bmw_enthusiasm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fplanner2000 View Post
D- to be honest with you, I haven't even BEGUN to figure out all the car buttons, let alone the seat ones!! You are probably correct - I'm a number of weeks away from getting to counting the number of seat adjustments, so I guess 18 will have to do so far. I am now curious so that maybe this weekend if I get the chance I will further investigate this.

bmw_e - I think we're pretty much saying the same thing - the 550ix will beat the M-3 0-60, but that the M-3 will beat the 550 from 60-120 and possibly from 0-120 using your weight discussion points. My point was that I am comfortable with that, since the vast majority of my driving will be from 0-60.
mine too
I agree that fun for us can only occur on lawful limits and therefore 550's torque is more
of a value.
regarding your 20 degrees
have you noticed side bolsters getting tight?
take the manual and see the diagram and perform a one to one comparison with the german
image. See if you are missing a separate + - button...
right next to the round one with 4 positions...
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  #31  
Old 09-14-2011, 10:43 PM
MBrown1003 MBrown1003 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_enthusiasm View Post
mine too
I agree that fun for us can only occur on lawful limits and therefore 550's torque is more
of a value.
regarding your 20 degrees
have you noticed side bolsters getting tight?
take the manual and see the diagram and perform a one to one comparison with the german
image. See if you are missing a separate + - button...
right next to the round one with 4 positions...
My car (550i, M Sport) does NOT have adjustable backrest width. Strangely enough, my sister's 750Li (which I think is a 2008) does have them, along with all of the other adjustments we have on our F10s.
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Previously...
'11 F10 550i M Sport (ED Aug 1, 2011; US deliv, Sep 12, 2011)
'08 E90 M3
'07 E92 335i: ordered Nov '06; delivered Jan '07, totaled Sep '08.
'02 E39 M5: June 2002 - June 2007
'00 E39 540i/6, '97 E39 528i, '92 E34 525i + VW, MBz, Peugeot, Toyota, Olds
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  #32  
Old 09-14-2011, 10:52 PM
bmw_enthusiasm bmw_enthusiasm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBrown1003 View Post
My car (550i, M Sport) does NOT have adjustable backrest width. Strangely enough, my sister's 750Li (which I think is a 2008) does have them, along with all of the other adjustments we have on our F10s.
yup...in europe they also have them
but they decided the US doesn't need them...
I can imagine those tiny decisions on little details like that, how they translate into M$$ of production savings...
I expect to have the part # for this soon that will replace the whole seat.
(not cheap )
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  #33  
Old 09-15-2011, 01:12 AM
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Jashley73 Jashley73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_enthusiasm View Post
yup...in europe they also have them
but they decided the US doesn't need them...
Maybe because they think us American's are too fat? sorry to troll, I just couldn't pass it up.
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  #34  
Old 09-15-2011, 03:22 AM
highyo highyo is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Question, do you think you would be just as happy in a Dinan tuned F01? I do.
i don't. would have bought one if i did big guy. i have always loved 5 series, this is my 2nd one, it won't be my last one. i have also always loved M3s, but the choice this time was OBVIOUS. 550i xdrive with Dinan s2 FTW
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Last edited by highyo; 09-15-2011 at 03:31 AM.
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  #35  
Old 09-15-2011, 03:27 AM
highyo highyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_enthusiasm View Post
Don't be so sure , I know you keep on saying that
and I thought you were right because I took a couple of M3's down on the road without
dinan either.

but now that I am thinking about it
without Dinan, lets do the math:

the 550 xi's plain 400 horses are too busy carrying extra 2.3507 pounds each
(comparing to the M3's horses,)


which analogically I can calculate roughly in the vicinity of M3 , takes away from the 550i 'performance something like 17% off..(or more)

so Horsewise the M3 is a MUCH stronger car....call pull more than the 550xi

because the 550 is too busy carrying its weight.

if you apply that on the 550i's true HP's you will get around 330Hp

and likewise for torque you will get
around 374...
still 74 lb-ft/rpm away from the M3...

but NOT That far... you will only have a fair chance to laugh at the beginning
will never ever ever laugh last

and you know..
ONE little mistake on the turn with the 550i, just a TINY one
maybe without dinan, no idea. but i think it's worth the extra dough. if you have to save the money, save it elsewhere in optioning. there is no chance an M3 has hope against me. 5000 rpm, 8000 rpm, whatever. N63 is a dynamo. try driving a 550 with D2 before making assumptions like that.

and do not let me see any of you on the highway in an M3 THINK about 40-120. you will look like the Jersey Shore extra i smoked a month ago. Staring at my twin hexagonal pipes wondering "is that stock?". and by the way, that demographic may be an east coast phenomenon, but it's another reason why i don't own the M3
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Last edited by highyo; 09-15-2011 at 03:34 AM.
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  #36  
Old 09-15-2011, 04:58 AM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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[QUOTE=bmw_enthusiasm;6319159]
"well..the torque is always more on the 550xi of course but not as much as it seems."

450 lb ft vs 295 lb ft. Are you kidding? Of course it's "as much as it seems". Even more so when you consider that the 450 lb ft is at 1750 RPM. It's an enormous difference. It's more than 50% more torque with only less than 25% more weight. Add in the extra torque transfer to the pavement and lack of wheelspin with xDrive over RWD and the low speed acceleration of the 550i xDrive is much better than the M3. The M3 is designed for the track where the rpm can be kept high. The 550i xDrive is designed for the street at legal speeds.
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  #37  
Old 09-15-2011, 05:07 AM
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dalekressin dalekressin is offline
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for me M3 provided a driving feel not available in the 550i
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  #38  
Old 09-15-2011, 05:50 AM
mujjuman mujjuman is offline
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Very interesting read. Thanks for sharing your thoughts
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  #39  
Old 09-15-2011, 05:50 AM
MBrown1003 MBrown1003 is offline
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In my odyssey of seven BMWs over the last 19 years, I've criss-crossed back and forth between non-M and ///M, as well as Fives and Threes. I have really enjoyed my M3, and I'm looking forward to the remaining 34 months with my 550i. Then what? Dunno -- by then the F30 M3 might be out. So will the M5. Or maybe something else.

I have enjoyed each of my cars, never regretted any of them. If I'm giving up a bit of performance and feel in the 550i, I can say that it's still a glorious car that outhandles most of what else is out there, still allows me to have my beloved manual transmission, and satisfies the gadget geek in me well beyond what my M3 had. It will be a different ownership experience than the M3, but no less enjoyable. With my driving habits and environment, all that low-end torque (woo-hoo!) may make it an even more satisfying drive than the M3.
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Previously...
'11 F10 550i M Sport (ED Aug 1, 2011; US deliv, Sep 12, 2011)
'08 E90 M3
'07 E92 335i: ordered Nov '06; delivered Jan '07, totaled Sep '08.
'02 E39 M5: June 2002 - June 2007
'00 E39 540i/6, '97 E39 528i, '92 E34 525i + VW, MBz, Peugeot, Toyota, Olds
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  #40  
Old 09-15-2011, 08:45 AM
highyo highyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalekressin View Post
for me M3 provided a driving feel not available in the 550i
For me, the 550i provided a massive amount of power wrapped in a luxurious and refined package that they M3 could not come close to

that's an interesting sig pic by the way
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  #41  
Old 09-15-2011, 09:41 AM
alextremo alextremo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alextremo View Post
Great write ups - they echo my feelings exactly having considered and test driven both cars.

I haven't noticed the cruise control quirk you mentioned but I'll test it on the way home today and let you know.
Tested the cruise control and it works as you described - it stays on even when clutch is depressed. Looks like it only turns off with brake or steering wheel switch.
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  #42  
Old 09-15-2011, 09:55 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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US F10's do not have adjustable bolsters, period. Other countries do.

Sent from my DROIDX using Bimmer
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  #43  
Old 09-15-2011, 12:23 PM
MBrown1003 MBrown1003 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alextremo View Post
Tested the cruise control and it works as you described - it stays on even when clutch is depressed. Looks like it only turns off with brake or steering wheel switch.
Yep. I confirmed it today. Set the cruise at 55 in third gear, shifted into fourth and the car maintained the speed. Same with fifth and sixth.
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Previously...
'11 F10 550i M Sport (ED Aug 1, 2011; US deliv, Sep 12, 2011)
'08 E90 M3
'07 E92 335i: ordered Nov '06; delivered Jan '07, totaled Sep '08.
'02 E39 M5: June 2002 - June 2007
'00 E39 540i/6, '97 E39 528i, '92 E34 525i + VW, MBz, Peugeot, Toyota, Olds
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  #44  
Old 09-15-2011, 12:40 PM
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Kamdog Kamdog is offline
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[quote=richschneid;6319446]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_enthusiasm View Post
"well..the torque is always more on the 550xi of course but not as much as it seems."

450 lb ft vs 295 lb ft. Are you kidding? Of course it's "as much as it seems". Even more so when you consider that the 450 lb ft is at 1750 RPM. It's an enormous difference. It's more than 50% more torque with only less than 25% more weight. Add in the extra torque transfer to the pavement and lack of wheelspin with xDrive over RWD and the low speed acceleration of the 550i xDrive is much better than the M3. The M3 is designed for the track where the rpm can be kept high. The 550i xDrive is designed for the street at legal speeds.
I think that Enthusiasm does not quite comprehend the relationship between horsepower and torque. Horsepower is a number derived from the amount of torque available and the RPMs used.

Horsepower = Torque * RPM / 5252

So, the higher the RPM at a given rate of torque, the more horsepower. Honda does this to raise their horsepower ratings of low torque engines, simply raise the redline and have a higher RPM, and you get more horsepower.

If the M3 and the 550 were both at 4000 RPM, and still in their high torque bands, the 550 would have more horsepower there than the M3.
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  #45  
Old 09-15-2011, 12:58 PM
MBrown1003 MBrown1003 is offline
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[quote=Kamdog;6320323]
Quote:
Originally Posted by richschneid View Post

I think that Enthusiasm does not quite comprehend the relationship between horsepower and torque. Horsepower is a number derived from the amount of torque available and the RPMs used.

Horsepower = Torque * RPM / 5252

So, the higher the RPM at a given rate of torque, the more horsepower. Honda does this to raise their horsepower ratings of low torque engines, simply raise the redline and have a higher RPM, and you get more horsepower.

If the M3 and the 550 were both at 4000 RPM, and still in their high torque bands, the 550 would have more horsepower there than the M3.
IIRC, the 550i makes more torque at 1000 RPMs than the M3 does at its max. And then the 550i goes up another 150 lb-ft from there.
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Previously...
'11 F10 550i M Sport (ED Aug 1, 2011; US deliv, Sep 12, 2011)
'08 E90 M3
'07 E92 335i: ordered Nov '06; delivered Jan '07, totaled Sep '08.
'02 E39 M5: June 2002 - June 2007
'00 E39 540i/6, '97 E39 528i, '92 E34 525i + VW, MBz, Peugeot, Toyota, Olds
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  #46  
Old 09-15-2011, 03:13 PM
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dunderhi dunderhi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBrown1003 View Post
IIRC, the 550i makes more torque at 1000 RPMs than the M3 does at its max. And then the 550i goes up another 150 lb-ft from there.
Maybe an artist's rendition will help your memory.

Click image for larger version

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  #47  
Old 09-15-2011, 03:54 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Maybe an artist's rendition will help your memory.

Attachment 293217
Nice chart. It visualizes well that what the 550 does, it does below 5000 rpm and what defines the M3s engine is it's ability pull well into the 8k rpms. One is a dignified stealthy low rev torque monster as is befitting for a luxury sedan ( think Bentley and Rolls ) while the other is a racy high revving screamer that does not try to hide or excuse it's capabilities. Two very different engines for a very different audience.
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  #48  
Old 09-15-2011, 05:36 PM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBrown1003 View Post
In my odyssey of seven BMWs over the last 19 years, I've criss-crossed back and forth between non-M and ///M, as well as Fives and Threes. I have really enjoyed my M3, and I'm looking forward to the remaining 34 months with my 550i. Then what? Dunno -- by then the F30 M3 might be out. So will the M5. Or maybe something else.
I am counting the days until a pre-owned F10 M5 falls into my price range.

560 HP
7 Speed DCT
//M Specific black panel
separate settings for trans, suspension and steering adjustments
Hydraulic steering.

Mmmmmmmm
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Heaven is where the police are British, the cooks are French, the cars are German, the lovers are Italian and it is all organised by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the cooks are English, the cars are French, the lovers are Swiss, and it is all organised by the Italians
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  #49  
Old 09-15-2011, 06:21 PM
mujjuman mujjuman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
I am counting the days until a pre-owned F10 M5 falls into my price range.

560 HP
7 Speed DCT
//M Specific black panel
separate settings for trans, suspension and steering adjustments
Hydraulic steering.

Mmmmmmmm
Same here hahaha... and the car isn't even out yet!
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  #50  
Old 09-15-2011, 09:16 PM
bmw_enthusiasm bmw_enthusiasm is offline
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Mein Auto: 2011 M3, 550i , 2008 328i
Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Nice chart. It visualizes well that what the 550 does, it does below 5000 rpm and what defines the M3s engine is it's ability pull well into the 8k rpms. One is a dignified stealthy low rev torque monster as is befitting for a luxury sedan ( think Bentley and Rolls ) while the other is a racy high revving screamer that does not try to hide or excuse it's capabilities. Two very different engines for a very different audience.
the chart is not comparing the third dimension of size though...
would be interesting to see a representation with third axis being a discrete weight scale...
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