Sound System Improvement Stage One

Originally Posted by crenninger

you mean for the door speakers?
That is what I am looking at right now, I have a broken speaker that needs replacing - I was just wondering where the extra 2 speakers where and if it's worth doing at the same time.

I won't for now.

thank you

If you simply scroll up a bit, you will see a picture I posted with speakers mounted on the door panels. The panels are designed to accomodate a 4 inch driver and a 1 inch tweeter.

The business level sound system only uses 4 inch full range speakers while the improved one uses a 4 inch driver with a seperate tweeter.

When you replace door speakers it's like replacing tires. Make sure you do them all and they match. this is so they match electrically, and will put an equal load on the amplfier.

Also, I respectfully disagree that mounting co-axial type speakers (underneath the seats) will give you an added benefit over the mid bass subs. Bass frequencies are non-directional so where you mount them is not critical. Once you move up the audio spectrum to higher frequencies placement can be very important. So unless you plan on going really hi end (Boston Acoustic Pro series, etc...) I don't see much value in placing anything but another set of low profile subs under there. Kicker and Pioneer make a set that will plop right in, but they're really not much better than what is under there.

You are better off running a completely seperate sub in the trunk. And that is a whole other discussion. Happy to address seperately if you like.

For now I recommend the easy replacement of just the door speakers. I have posted pics in the DIY as well as info. The next time around I think I may do a video to give greater detail.

Please post or pm any other questions after reading through the material on this thread and happy to help.

I tend to lean toward giving cover-all advice that is not to technical unless specifically asked.

Cheers,

EE

Originally Posted by whiterasta

It's just so maddening when I read people's replies to some of your posts. You are obviously very qualified and knowledgeable about what your speaking about. Your very clear that your providing the everyday consumer with a quality but cheap upgrade. Then people try to put you down on this. Every question asked of you is replied professionally. As well as high end questions. They have all been replied. Why do people always have something to say.

Anyway just thought I would say thanks.

Much appreciated. One post like this negates the bad mojo of the other dozen so no worries.

The trouble to helping via chat type scenarios is that everyone hears differently so speakers I love may sound like crap to you and vica versa so the nuamces of a helpful conversation dont convey well on just paper (aka chat board).

You are right, in most cases I lean toward the generic as engineers tend to ramble for eons when going technically specific and then your eyes just glaze over and the whole reason for the OP is lost.

So short answer if you want to go get really technical Im all for it, but get a large cup of coffee or a cold beer and lean back. Otherwise, I try to follow K.I.S.S.

Thanks Again

ps love the sub enclosure the installer did for you. Wish I had the time to do that.

Originally Posted by Evlengr

When you replace door speakers it's like replacing tires. Make sure you do them all and they match. this is so they match electrically, and will put an equal load on the amplfier.

Also, I respectfully disagree that mounting co-axial type speakers (underneath the seats) will give you an added benefit over the mid bass subs. Bass frequencies are non-directional so where you mount them is not critical. Once you move up the audio spectrum to higher frequencies placement can be very important.

In fear of looking like I'm trying to prove you wrong - your above statements are not entirely true.
All the factors in having ideal sound reproduction in a car is to generate the imaging & complete sound spectrum of a live recording/ event.
Putting the same speakers in the back of your car as the front will give you too strong a 'rear stage'.
When was the last time you went to see a concert/ band or even orchestra & had the sound coming from behind you?!
A strong front stage is paramount in any audio build - regardless of the environment it is installed in (home, live, car etc).
Rear speakers are called 'rear fill' & they are designed for exactly that.
In just about every install I do, I either dis-connect the rear speakers or leave the stock ones connected - but faded out.
In a perfect world, you want the rear speakers to only be audible by the rear passengers.

You are correct in that bass frequencies (<100Hz) are non-directional.
The sound emitted from the under seat mid bass is NOT subsonic - as it is not a sub woofer.
Mid Bass speakers are designed to reproduce frequency ranges of between approx 100Hz & 250Hz and those frequencies are directional.
Mid range speakers (like our door mounted 4" drivers) typically reproduce frequencies around 300Hz to 3.5KHz and is even more directional.
Tweeters are the most directional frequency and have a dramatic effect on imaging in a car.
Go have a listen to a passive 3 way system and cover the mid bass with cardboard. You will instantly know what I'm talking about!

Daz.

Originally Posted by deafwish

In fear of looking like I'm trying to prove you wrong - your above statements are not entirely true.
All the factors in having ideal sound reproduction in a car is to generate the imaging & complete sound spectrum of a live recording/ event.
Putting the same speakers in the back of your car as the front will give you too strong a 'rear stage'.
When was the last time you went to see a concert/ band or even orchestra & had the sound coming from behind you?!
A strong front stage is paramount in any audio build - regardless of the environment it is installed in (home, live, car etc).
Rear speakers are called 'rear fill' & they are designed for exactly that.
In just about every install I do, I either dis-connect the rear speakers or leave the stock ones connected - but faded out.
In a perfect world, you want the rear speakers to only be audible by the rear passengers.

You are correct in that bass frequencies (<100Hz) are non-directional.
The sound emitted from the under seat mid bass is NOT subsonic - as it is not a sub woofer.
Mid Bass speakers are designed to reproduce frequency ranges of between approx 100Hz & 250Hz and those frequencies are directional.
Mid range speakers (like our door mounted 4" drivers) typically reproduce frequencies around 300Hz to 3.5KHz and is even more directional.
Tweeters are the most directional frequency and have a dramatic effect on imaging in a car.
Go have a listen to a passive 3 way system and cover the mid bass with cardboard. You will instantly know what I'm talking about!

Daz.

Daz,

You seem to think you have something to prove here. Fine. I have been in the music industry for over 37 years. I have worked directly with Boyz II Men doing sound recordings, Jazzy Jeff and Wil Smith and I went to competing high schools and ran DJ businesses while there, built sound systems for clubs of over 5000 people, opened for both Rob Zombie and Moby, The Chief Engineer for 5 FM and 3 AM radio stations in Washington DC witha listener base of about 3 million, worked on the design team for Radio Disney to name but a few things. I am currently an engineer for Sirius/XM Satellite radio systems and work on their streaming initiative



Btw if you can hear your subs generated from the direct back then your timing is set wrong for the release times. If you want to get really picky, my processor has different macros to deal with temperature differences that can impact sound reproduction by slwoing certain frequecies down from acoustical masking.

The advice I give is paired down to more practical levels for people. Part of my job here at Sirius/XM is to translate from Engineese to English. If you want to take this off line and talk about things through PM thats great. I can share with you the idea of controlling attack and release times in a small environment like a car with processors and/or give you the schematics to build a crossover to control bandpass. And love to hear some of your work as well. Sounds like we probable have some of the same ideas, but just like to convey them differently.


I agree that the speakers under the seats are not sub-level bass. If you go back and read my posts you will see that mentioned repeatedly. Telling people to put full range speakers under the seat is bad advice as the audio spectrum they produce will get lost (Your best bet is to restrict the audio to 125HZ to 800hz to those speakers). I have already tested this with digi-analyzer. Here is a basic diagram of what I have done with my vehicle and recommend if you want to improve your system with out altering the physical or electrical attributes of an X3.

If you want to have a pissing contest then you win. I am not here for that.

Why get so defensive when someone doesn't agree with your opinion?!
This is the internet, remember!!!

I respect that you have done some school disc jockeying, recorded some famous guys in a studio, setup some ear bleeding 40Hz+ sound systems in night clubs (lots of subs & lots of horns?!), opened for an 80's rock artist and even worked at a few radio stations, but giving people sketchy information & keyboard bashing people who prove you wrong only makes you look like an amateur.
I'm clearly not the only one who thinks like this - as you already seem to have quite the reputation among the educated car audio folks on here.
I was always taught to use my 2 ears & one mouth in proportion. Maybe you should adopt this philosophy & heaven forbid - you might learn something!

Keep rockin' those high school musicals!

Originally Posted by deafwish

Why get so defensive when someone doesn't agree with your opinion?!
This is the internet, remember!!!

I respect that you have done some school disc jockeying, recorded some famous guys in a studio, setup some ear bleeding 40Hz+ sound systems in night clubs (lots of subs & lots of horns?!), opened for an 80's rock artist and even worked at a few radio stations, but giving people sketchy information & keyboard bashing people who prove you wrong only makes you look like an amateur.
I'm clearly not the only one who thinks like this - as you already seem to have quite the reputation among the educated car audio folks on here.
I was always taught to use my 2 ears & one mouth in proportion. Maybe you should adopt this philosophy & heaven forbid - you might learn something!

Keep rockin' those high school musicals!

Umm not getting defensive, just explaining my background for giving sound advice. Your professional background in audio and technology is in what did you say? I offered to discuss this topic like two professionals, but since you are trying to steer this into a personal vendetta of some sort. I concede you're right you're wonderful and have managed to take a post I started to help people into a shouting match. Well one nice thing about this board...ignore!

Do a search on this whole board. EE IS THE MOST HELPFULL PERSON OUT HERE.

Originally Posted by whiterasta

Do a search on this whole board. EE IS THE MOST HELPFULL PERSON OUT HERE.

Thanks WR. I don't know if I would go that far, but I try.

I have been trying to get my hands on a pair of the SPS-410 Alpine replacement for the SPS-400.

If anyone has the diameter measurement of the back of the magnet on the SPS-410 please let me know or post it.

If I can compare it against the older sps-400 I can tell you with relative certainty that it will fit. Right now all I can say is depth wise and the front diameter that they are good.

Thanks Again for the kind words (well most of you, Lol),

EE

For anyone who may be interested in some install pic's of the Hertz Energy Gear:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/img1100xi.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/534/img1101c.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/641/img1104s.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/718/img1114jd.jpg/

Regarding the SPS410, did you notice that sonic electronic has a lot of pictures loaded now
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...e-SPS-410.html


Top Mount Depth 1-21/32"


they claim it fits my 2004 X3...

Originally Posted by crenninger

Regarding the SPS410, did you notice that sonic electronic has a lot of pictures loaded now
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...e-SPS-410.html


Top Mount Depth 1-21/32"


they claim it fits my 2004 X3...

Depth is good. I would order a pair. My suggestion is start wtih back doors. If you think about it those speakers are closer to your head then the front mounts so you will hear the difference right away if adjusting the fader slightly to the rear.

EE

Why the hell would you want more sound coming from the back?! Lol!
I'm surprised you haven't suggested a pair of boot mounted 6x9's for some of these upgrades...
Crenninger - I suggest you go to a Professional Car Audio establishment & get some professional advice from people who specialise in CAR AUDIO.
You will be humoured as to how much their advice contradicts what so many 'internet experts' advise.
Good luck!

Originally Posted by deafwish

Why the hell would you want more sound coming from the back?! Lol!
I'm surprised you haven't suggested a pair of boot mounted 6x9's for some of these upgrades...
Crenninger - I suggest you go to a Professional Car Audio establishment & get some professional advice from people who specialise in CAR AUDIO.
You will be humoured as to how much their advice contradicts what so many 'internet experts' advise.
Good luck!

What is wrong with you? All you do is come out and slam me any chance you get. Sorry but I have 30+ years professional experience in audio and electronics. I hold two degrees in engineering one is an EE and the other in RF as well as certifications from the SBE and Microsoft.At 12 started working at installing car stereos and did this on and off for almost another 15 years. I have worked all over the world and hold design patents for several key audio components for major companies like Disney and ABC. I currently work at Sirius/XM as an engineer and just worked on setting up processing on their music channels based on the average car interiors acoustics.

Subsequently, I have installed stereos in three X3's personally and helped over several dozen others with their work. Including car dealerships and Crutchfield magazine as they considered me an expert and wanted my professional advice. Even Geico Insurance has qualified me as an expert in car audio for insurance purposes.

The speakers in the rear door are closer to the drivers head then the ones in the front. If you knew anything about audio you would understand a concept called dispersion and how to use attack and release times to alter acoustics.

I suggested he started with changing out those first, but recommend you change all four out the same.

I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, but when you criticize me personally and professionally you step over the line and violate this websites policy (on personal attacks) as well as just plain good manners. Audio is essentially my entire life.

I can provide the full acoustic mapping for any seating position in the vehicle, I also have retro engineered most of the electrical schematics of the X3's audio system and wiring. Don't know you can get any more "professional" than that.

Please feel free to add some positive feedback as that is what this board is for instead of hijacking it to feed your ego by trying to put me down.

Certainly not a personal attack - just questioning your bizzare car audio philosophy!
I'm allowed to do that, aren't I?
Have the terms 'staging', 'imaging' or 'time alignment' ever been considered in your car audio designs? I'm thinking not...
Have you ever attended or competed in a car audio SQ Competiton?
Having Engineering Degrees & experience in DJ'ing at school prom's is a different kettle of fish.
I too, am offering advice to the end user & suggesting that they consider getting the (free) advice of a professional who specializes soley in car audio i.e. a Car Audio Shop.
It frustrates me when internet 'experts' give shady advice. If you wish to call me names & say I'm stroking my ego - then you are the arrogant one.
Bah. The other guys who had previously questioned your 'advice' have clearly moved on. You can lead a horse to water!

Originally Posted by deafwish

Certainly not a personal attack - just questioning your bizzare car audio philosophy!
I'm allowed to do that, aren't I?
Have the terms 'staging', 'imaging' or 'time alignment' ever been considered in your car audio designs? I'm thinking not...
Have you ever attended or competed in a car audio SQ Competiton?
Having Engineering Degrees & experience in DJ'ing at school prom's is a different kettle of fish.
I too, am offering advice to the end user & suggesting that they consider getting the (free) advice of a professional who specializes soley in car audio i.e. a Car Audio Shop.
It frustrates me when internet 'experts' give shady advice. If you wish to call me names & say I'm stroking my ego - then you are the arrogant one.
Bah. The other guys who had previously questioned your 'advice' have clearly moved on. You can lead a horse to water!

I have made my life's career all about music and technology. When you say my advice is shady or seek a professional shop you are insulting me and that is not offering constructive advice it is simply being a troll.

My credentials and experience far exceed the average or even hi end car installer and speak for themselves. If you read what I stated instead of figuring out what to call me next you would know that.

Also, I suggest that the weekend installer start with the back doors for pragmatic reasons. Most of the BMW x3's don't have air bags in the rear doors, so it makes it easier to start out there

And yes time alignment and the use of both a wavetek scope and digianalyzer were used in the set up of designing my sound system since the inital placement of door speakers and the others don't lend themselves to good acoustics. I offered to provide that information as well if you had read the post.

Please feel free to start your thread on all the car installations you did and provide step by step instructions as well as pictures. Maybe you will supply your professional credentials as well.

And,you go right ahead and keep bashing me, and I will go right on helping people. Most people like you eventually are kicked off the board or realize that their kind of advice is not welcome and have "moved on".

I'm done with you and this conversation I wish you fair journey and good luck.

For dimensions, the 410 appears to be shallow but the diameter - well the numbers do not gell . . . the 410 may be a tad larger in diameter. I do not how much slop there will be but I do not imagine that 0.5mm will make a difference.

SPS-400

http://www.alpine.com.au/showItem.php?item_id=97

Mounting Depth: not stated

• Woofer Mounting Diameter (mm): 93mm
• Woofer Mounting Diameter (in): 3-2/3'' = 93.13mm
• Woofer Mounting Depth (mm): 45mm
• Woofer Mounting Depth (in): 1-3/4'' or 1-12/32"
•

SPS-410

http://www.alpine.com.au/showItem.php?item_id=232

Mounting Depth: 41.7mm

• Woofer Mounting Diameter (mm): 93mm
• Woofer Mounting Diameter (in): 3-11/16'' = 93.66mm
• Woofer Mounting Depth (mm): 41.7mm
• Woofer Mounting Depth (in): 1-21/32''

Originally Posted by x3oiler

For dimensions, the 410 appears to be shallow but the diameter - well the numbers do not gell . . . the 410 may be a tad larger in diameter. I do not how much slop there will be but I do not imagine that 0.5mm will make a difference.

SPS-400

http://www.alpine.com.au/showItem.php?item_id=97

Mounting Depth: not stated

• Woofer Mounting Diameter (mm): 93mm
• Woofer Mounting Diameter (in): 3-2/3'' = 93.13mm
• Woofer Mounting Depth (mm): 45mm
• Woofer Mounting Depth (in): 1-3/4'' or 1-12/32"
•

SPS-410

http://www.alpine.com.au/showItem.php?item_id=232

Mounting Depth: 41.7mm

• Woofer Mounting Diameter (mm): 93mm
• Woofer Mounting Diameter (in): 3-11/16'' = 93.66mm
• Woofer Mounting Depth (mm): 41.7mm
• Woofer Mounting Depth (in): 1-21/32''

Thanks X3 Oiler.

Here is a link to Sonicelectronix here in the states. They have both the sps-400 and sps-410 in stock. Interstingly enough the one person that reviewed the sps-410 stated they sounded better than the Hertz ones he just replaced.

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/viewc...facturer_id=14

If it is only .5mm in my professional opinion I agree that shouldnt make a difference. One of the nice things about the newer version is that the tweeter is adjustable in direction.

Originally Posted by Evlengr

One of the nice things about the newer version is that the tweeter is adjustable in direction.

ok, I'll try them from a place that accepts returns in case they don't fit.

regarding the Adjustable, how should I adjust that? pointing them towards my hears?

SPS-410 ordered today - let's see when I get them and how it turns out.

Originally Posted by crenninger

ok, I'll try them from a place that accepts returns in case they don't fit.

regarding the Adjustable, how should I adjust that? pointing them towards my hears?

Pretty much. I would probably aim for right above the arm rest at ear level.

Looking as a set of SPS-410 I see no sign that the tweeters are movable. They seem just as fixed as the SPS-400.

On dimensions - the tweeters on the SPS-410 protrude 2.6mm from the mounting surface than the 400's. Is this likely to be an issue?

SPS-410


and SPS-400

It could be since I never measured from the inside of the door frame area to the speaker screen, but I doubt it. I can visually inspect the speakers and there is a gap between the current tweeter (I have the sps-400's now) and the grill.

Alpine says the tweeter is adjustable. Maybe a few degree on a single axis parallel to the main driver is what I would venture is an educated guess.

I have a pair of 410 and I will install tomorrow (weather willing) so will advise.

Originally Posted by x3oiler

I have a pair of 410 and I will install tomorrow (weather willing) so will advise.

Isnt it spring for you folks?

Yes but raining all day but was the Aussie rules grand final so was watching that on the tube anyway.

I installed the speakers today. The SPS-410 fit no problems.

I used the BSW youtube videos as a guide to removal of the door trim but I have to state there is one thing I would recommend you DO NOT do. When removing the door handle trim as BSW show - you WILL crack bits off the bottom of the trim. My trim pieces were on real tight. I found that the edge clips running up both edges are the issue - they are tougher than the centre clips. Leverage from the bottom does not directly tackle the edge clip pressure points.

So I did this for the last two. Start here with a panel removal tool.



Then gentle leverage OF THE GREY PLASTIC away from the trim will release the edge. Once you have the edge release then gentle leverage up both sides will pop off the trim with no damage.



Oh the speakers sound much better btw - worth the effort - one morning to do all four.