Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 3 Series / 4 Series > F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)

F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-22-2011, 10:21 AM
jzcrna's Avatar
jzcrna jzcrna is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Florida
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 812
Mein Auto: 2012 BMW 335i Sedan
N20 vs. N54 vs. N55 tuneability

Hey all. I have been intrigued by the new 328i and the power that it has. However, I have been reading a lot of posts stating that we can really come close to the 335i after the performance enhancements become available. I sense this may not be true, because of the fact that the turbo boost pressure in the N20 engine is already at 16 psi. Is that pretty much the high end of boost pressure for a turbo engine?

I have read that the N54 engine only supplied 7 psi of boost pressure, which made it very tunable as opposed to the N55 engine which was at 10 psi. This would be less tunable. As far as the N20, it seems to already be maxed out.

I am certainly no mechanic, and just looking for feedback to see if this makes sense.

Thanks!
__________________

2008 BMW 335i Retired
2009 BMW 535i Retired



2012 F30 335i sportline (Black Sapphire/Black Leatherette/Black High gloss trim, Technology, Sport Auto, Premium Sound, BMW Apps.)
Reply With Quote
Ads by Google
  #2  
Old 11-22-2011, 11:19 AM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Norcal
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,694
Mein Auto: 2011 328i
As long as one doesn't plan to drive the car beyond 50,000 miles, boosting it into the 20's should be fine.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-22-2011, 11:40 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
Moderator
Location: Farmington Hills, MI
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,098
Mein Auto: 2014 328i Sport Line MT
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzcrna View Post
Hey all. I have been intrigued by the new 328i and the power that it has. However, I have been reading a lot of posts stating that we can really come close to the 335i after the performance enhancements become available. I sense this may not be true, because of the fact that the turbo boost pressure in the N20 engine is already at 16 psi. Is that pretty much the high end of boost pressure for a turbo engine?

I have read that the N54 engine only supplied 7 psi of boost pressure, which made it very tunable as opposed to the N55 engine which was at 10 psi. This would be less tunable. As far as the N20, it seems to already be maxed out.

I am certainly no mechanic, and just looking for feedback to see if this makes sense.

Thanks!
I think it would take a qualified engineer to know for sure. Factors like cooling, bearing materials, compression ratio and others must be taken into account. We'll find out soon enough once the tuners get their hands on an F30 with the N20 engine.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-22-2011, 11:57 AM
tim330i's Avatar
tim330i tim330i is offline
Administrator
Location: Boston
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,435
Mein Auto: Ti Silver 03 M3
Did you see this thread -

BMW N20 Power Upgrade from Kelleners Sport Bumps HP to almost 300, with 310ft-lbs

Seems to answer your question, right? As far as I understand it the N54 was the most tunable for insane power, the N55 is tunable, not as much as the N54 but probably more then the N20. That being said as the link above proves the N20 does have more power to give.

Tim
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-22-2011, 01:25 PM
justinnum1's Avatar
justinnum1 justinnum1 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: South Florida
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,732
Mein Auto: F30 328i Sport
N20 is going to be a beast. With a little tune you are already at 335 numbers. 328 ftw
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-22-2011, 01:46 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Norcal
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,694
Mein Auto: 2011 328i
Quote:
Originally Posted by tim330i View Post
Did you see this thread -

BMW N20 Power Upgrade from Kelleners Sport Bumps HP to almost 300, with 310ft-lbs

Seems to answer your question, right? As far as I understand it the N54 was the most tunable for insane power, the N55 is tunable, not as much as the N54 but probably more then the N20. That being said as the link above proves the N20 does have more power to give.

Tim
I don't know if we can say the N55 (I understand the N54 is more tunable) is going to be more tunable than the N20. If both tunes can boost the power by a similar amount, the N20 would be more tunable from a percentage standpoint.

We also don't know the long term impact the above tune will have to the N20. Maybe to safely boost the power of the N20, other aftermarket hardware will be necessary.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-05-2011, 03:34 AM
mrbenyong mrbenyong is offline
Registered User
Location: Malaysia
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 95
Mein Auto: E65 735 F10 535 Golf 5+6
i know in america u wont get the 320, but its the same CC 2.0 turbo.
but it would be hilarious if we could tune that to 300 hp!.. id gladly keep that 320 badge and kick some ASS!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-06-2011, 03:54 PM
Spartan Eagle Spartan Eagle is offline
Registered User
Location: Maryland
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 48
Mein Auto: 2008 335xi Sapphire Black
Well the N20 will probably hit 335i numbers with a tune but if you want to tune your car you might as well buy the 335i. Pushing the N20 further would definitely damage it in the long run. I would imagine itd be a thirsty little f'er too. So far I don't like the N20 and N55 as much as the N54. They seem soft and unexciting in comparison
__________________


Art is science made clear

335xi 08'
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-09-2011, 06:33 AM
03rob530i 03rob530i is offline
Registered User
Location: Georgia
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 44
Mein Auto: E39 530i
I'd get an Audi or VW if you want to get a lot of power out of a turbo 4, BMW uses aluminum blocks... but so does the Nissan GTR. The GTR also has plasma-sprayed cylinder liner bores, something I doubt any BMW motor has. All Audi/VW engines use iron blocks, heavier yes, but can take the abuse of more boost, etc.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-21-2011, 11:36 PM
jwac's Avatar
jwac jwac is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,680
Mein Auto: '14 335i 6MT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan Eagle View Post
So far I don't like the N20 and N55 as much as the N54. They seem soft and unexciting in comparison
I couldn't disagree more about the N55 vs N54. I was initially very skeptical on the N55, coming from having owned 2 N54s. But I'm sold on the N55, huge difference. It's smoother, revvy-er, sharper and more responsive and has less throttle and turbo lag. The engine just sings through the rev band like a NA I6, as opposed to the N54 which gets harsh in the upper RPM range. The N55 pushes me to WANT to rev it out, I love it. I'm even getting 2-3 MPG better while putting down more power with my Power Kit.

The N54 is not a bad engine by any stretch. But the N55 takes it a step further by bringing back the utter smoothness and response of a classic BMW inline-6.
__________________
2014 335i Sedan 6MT
Estoril Blue | Black leather | Dark Burl Walnut
M Sport | Premium | Driver Assistance Plus | Technology | Dynamic Handling | Cold Weather | 19" 403M Wheels | M Sport Brakes | Harman Kardon | Rear Window Shades | Auto High Beams

09.16.13 European Delivery

Past:
2011 335i Coupe 6MT (ED)
2010 135i Vert 6MT (ED)
2007 335i Coupe 6MT (ED)

2006 325i Sedan 6MT
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-22-2011, 09:09 PM
brkf's Avatar
brkf brkf is offline
Not Wearing Pants
Location: Earth
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 13,316
Mein Auto: Moped
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwac View Post

The N54 is not a bad engine by any stretch.
Tell that to all of us with HPFP issues...
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-22-2011, 09:12 PM
brkf's Avatar
brkf brkf is offline
Not Wearing Pants
Location: Earth
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 13,316
Mein Auto: Moped
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan Eagle View Post
Well the N20 will probably hit 335i numbers with a tune but if you want to tune your car you might as well buy the 335i. Pushing the N20 further would definitely damage it in the long run. I would imagine itd be a thirsty little f'er too. So far I don't like the N20 and N55 as much as the N54. They seem soft and unexciting in comparison
But with the 335i you get considerably more weight - not just from the engine but also a whole bunch of extra stuff on the car that only adds weight (power seats, moonroof). There's a big difference in how the e90 328i feels in corners v. the far heavier e90 335i. I'm betting the gap between the 328 and 335 F30 could be bigger.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-23-2011, 04:57 AM
JoeFromPA JoeFromPA is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: West Chester, PA
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,734
Mein Auto: 01 M5, 08 535xit
Power output in a turbo engine is not simply a matter of PSI (that's a 20+ year old mindset that went back to manual boost controllers being literally turned up by the owner). So you can't look at one engine making 7 PSI and another making 10 and say "the 10 PSI engine makes more power"

It comes down to a huge number of factors, but here's one: the volumetric efficiency of a turbo. The n54 had two small turbos that were most efficient (turning volume of air movement into usable compressed volume) at overall lower PSI rates than the N55, whose single turbo was larger and had better efficiency at somewhat higher PSI rates.

A well designed larger engine will always have more power potential than a similarly well designed smaller engine. An engine a simply an air pump - the more air you pump, the more torque you can get, given similar levels of efficiency. The more torque you can put out, and the higher you can rev safely, the more horsepower you'll get.

End of story. This is why the 3.0 liter n54/n55, which has 50% more combustion chamber volume than the n20, will be able to put out more power. Now you can get into all sorts of things like which one has better built pistons/rings/rods/bearings/fueling system....But that's for another day

...

Re the individual who stated VW & Audi use iron engines so that's the better bet for more boost....this is wrong. For example, the new S4 uses an aluminum block. There is nothing wrong with tuning aluminum blocks to high power levels (if you disagree, please talk to any STi owner, current EVO owner, etc.). They are simply more sensitive to being poorly tuned and running hot.
__________________
01 m5 - 127k miles 11/2013....08 535xit - 94k miles
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-23-2011, 06:15 AM
justinnum1's Avatar
justinnum1 justinnum1 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: South Florida
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,732
Mein Auto: F30 328i Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Power output in a turbo engine is not simply a matter of PSI (that's a 20+ year old mindset that went back to manual boost controllers being literally turned up by the owner). So you can't look at one engine making 7 PSI and another making 10 and say "the 10 PSI engine makes more power"

It comes down to a huge number of factors, but here's one: the volumetric efficiency of a turbo. The n54 had two small turbos that were most efficient (turning volume of air movement into usable compressed volume) at overall lower PSI rates than the N55, whose single turbo was larger and had better efficiency at somewhat higher PSI rates.

A well designed larger engine will always have more power potential than a similarly well designed smaller engine. An engine a simply an air pump - the more air you pump, the more torque you can get, given similar levels of efficiency. The more torque you can put out, and the higher you can rev safely, the more horsepower you'll get.

End of story. This is why the 3.0 liter n54/n55, which has 50% more combustion chamber volume than the n20, will be able to put out more power. Now you can get into all sorts of things like which one has better built pistons/rings/rods/bearings/fueling system....But that's for another day

...

Re the individual who stated VW & Audi use iron engines so that's the better bet for more boost....this is wrong. For example, the new S4 uses an aluminum block. There is nothing wrong with tuning aluminum blocks to high power levels (if you disagree, please talk to any STi owner, current EVO owner, etc.). They are simply more sensitive to being poorly tuned and running hot.
great post, very informative
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-23-2011, 02:46 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Norcal
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,694
Mein Auto: 2011 328i
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueguydotcom View Post
But with the 335i you get considerably more weight - not just from the engine but also a whole bunch of extra stuff on the car that only adds weight (power seats, moonroof). There's a big difference in how the e90 328i feels in corners v. the far heavier e90 335i. I'm betting the gap between the 328 and 335 F30 could be bigger.
The gap between the F30 335i and F30 328i is smaller. The new 335i loses more weight than the new 328i.

Unfortunately power seats and moonroof are always a must have for the other half.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-25-2011, 07:11 AM
jzcrna's Avatar
jzcrna jzcrna is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Florida
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 812
Mein Auto: 2012 BMW 335i Sedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Power output in a turbo engine is not simply a matter of PSI (that's a 20+ year old mindset that went back to manual boost controllers being literally turned up by the owner). So you can't look at one engine making 7 PSI and another making 10 and say "the 10 PSI engine makes more power"

It comes down to a huge number of factors, but here's one: the volumetric efficiency of a turbo. The n54 had two small turbos that were most efficient (turning volume of air movement into usable compressed volume) at overall lower PSI rates than the N55, whose single turbo was larger and had better efficiency at somewhat higher PSI rates.

A well designed larger engine will always have more power potential than a similarly well designed smaller engine. An engine a simply an air pump - the more air you pump, the more torque you can get, given similar levels of efficiency. The more torque you can put out, and the higher you can rev safely, the more horsepower you'll get.

End of story. This is why the 3.0 liter n54/n55, which has 50% more combustion chamber volume than the n20, will be able to put out more power. Now you can get into all sorts of things like which one has better built pistons/rings/rods/bearings/fueling system....But that's for another day

...

Re the individual who stated VW & Audi use iron engines so that's the better bet for more boost....this is wrong. For example, the new S4 uses an aluminum block. There is nothing wrong with tuning aluminum blocks to high power levels (if you disagree, please talk to any STi owner, current EVO owner, etc.). They are simply more sensitive to being poorly tuned and running hot.
Very good info. I guess one of my main concerns was if a tune would tax an N20 motor more than the N55. Thanks so much for the education.
__________________

2008 BMW 335i Retired
2009 BMW 535i Retired



2012 F30 335i sportline (Black Sapphire/Black Leatherette/Black High gloss trim, Technology, Sport Auto, Premium Sound, BMW Apps.)
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-25-2011, 05:53 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Norcal
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,694
Mein Auto: 2011 328i
Hmm, good info.

Maybe BMW intentionally made the N55 less tunable so they are not bombarded by warranty repairs and disputes because people tune the crap out of their turbos.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 3 Series / 4 Series > F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms