2013 Cadillac ATS GM Takes Aim at BMW. No, Seriously.

Originally Posted by dtc100

You have just lost a great deal of credibility for any opinions you have about a car.

If GM can manufacture a sport sedan with the 3er's driving dynamics and Corvette like performance, it will be a serious threat. The CTS is still a little too big and heavy, but the ATS seems to be rightfully aimed at the 3.

The CTS though I have never seen marketed against a 3 but instead a 5. I know it definitely is bigger than the 3's like mine. I crossed shopped a CTS-V with the E63 and C63.

I am rather anti GM but depending on the cost I'd perhaps still consider an ATS. I know people who definitely would cross shop the two. Not like it is cross shopping a BMW with a Kia, Caddy has gone a long way in recent years.

Originally Posted by dtc100

The G37 and the new Mustang GT come to mind.

Back when I was shopping for a car, the difference in cost was not so great between the G and 3. Today the monthly payments are about $100 apart.

Thank you. No doubt the G37 is a worthy competitor at a lower price with more content. The Mustang GT has the performance but lacks the refinement and surely the interior quality of the 3 series and other German sport sedans, not to mention it only comes as a coupe. It's a modern pony car with a minimal back seat, not a luxury sport sedan. Never in a million years would I personally consider this car as I have a young son and require 4 doors and a decent sized trunk.

Originally Posted by Chris90

Didn't you complain non-stop about that car when you owned it?

Still driving mine.

LOL - My engine stuttered at WOT @around 4k RPM, my ECU fried once, my e-brake arrived from the factory bad, the locks would sometimes go bonkers and lock unlock on their own. It was actually my most reliable BMW!

Still I loved the sound of it when I started it in the morning, loved it at the track and the day I took delivery of my e90 330i in Munich I knew I had made a serious mistake giving up my e46 ZHP. Live and learn. You don't know how great you have it...

Originally Posted by dct

The G37 and the new Mustang GT come to mind.

Hmm, mustang is a coupe. G37 has its strong points - mostly price. The engine and size are not worthy. They feel like what the car is: a bargain.

Originally Posted by dtc100

The G37 and the new Mustang GT come to mind.

Back when I was shopping for a car, the difference in cost was not so great between the G and 3. Today the monthly payments are about $100 apart.

I was set on getting a G37 before I test drove the 335d and instead spent more money on it because I loved the power band. I had though considered a GT Mustang at the time but they went up a lot in cost around that time and if I get a mustang then part of the appeal would be "cheap pony" car. I have two young kids and don't see the Mustang as an issue. But for years I drove a 928S while my daughter was a baby to a toddler then for a few years drove a 1992 Saleen Mustang. One common thing in all those years is every single day I was commuting at least 110 miles with my daughter. Now days with my commute including both kids and wife then suppose any coupe would be cramped.

Of course Mustang being a coupe is an issue for me and many of you who have family needs. But let's be honest, I almost considered getting a 335is, when the local dealer was trying to unload it at a huge discount. But it was my head overruled my heart.

Family needs can be overcome, just convince the kids and your wife hopping in and out of the back seats is good physical for them.

I know a guy who managed to convince his wife a Porsche Cayman was good for their family with two girls.

Originally Posted by dtc100

Of course Mustang being a coupe is an issue for me and many of you who have family needs. But let's be honest, I almost considered getting a 335is, when the local dealer was trying to unload it at a huge discount. But it was my head overruled my heart.

Family needs can be overcome, just convince the kids and your wife hopping in and out of the back seats is good physical for them.

I know a guy who managed to convince his wife a Porsche Cayman was good for their family with two girls.

My mom drove nothing but coupes my whole life. There was her, me, my older brother and sometimes my dad in those cars daily. She drove Porsches almost exclusively except when I was really young she did have a Pinto then when I was past college she switched to Bugs. When growing up I do not recall ever once feeling cramped or anyone ever griping about space. It was not like we did not know what a big car was like because my dad pretty much always had an S class Mercedes. Not like we are a short family either.

Originally Posted by dtc100

Of course Mustang being a coupe is an issue for me and many of you who have family needs. But let's be honest, I almost considered getting a 335is, when the local dealer was trying to unload it at a huge discount. But it was my head overruled my heart.

Family needs can be overcome, just convince the kids and your wife hopping in and out of the back seats is good physical for them.

I know a guy who managed to convince his wife a Porsche Cayman was good for their family with two girls.

Last night my wife, after hearing her Audi will be at the dealer for a week, informed me she wants a Cayenne. I laughed until I realized she's serious. She said it's a sensible alternative to the 911s her dad always had. Every story about the 911s is a mix of nostalgia and childhood trauma: he forced her to ride in cross country several times in the back of them! WTF?! What is this Stockholm Syndrome? Guess I should be happy she doesn't want to shoehorn our 3 year old (or the second kid she's begging for) into the back of a 911.

FWIW, my mom always (and still) has sports cars. I have no desire to have a sports car with a kid in a car seat.

Originally Posted by Snipe656

My mom drove nothing but coupes my whole life. There was her, me, my older brother and sometimes my dad in those cars daily. She drove Porsches almost exclusively except when I was really young she did have a Pinto then when I was past college she switched to Bugs. When growing up I do not recall ever once feeling cramped or anyone ever griping about space. It was not like we did not know what a big car was like because my dad pretty much always had an S class Mercedes. Not like we are a short family either.

Porsches, Pinto & VW "Bug", wow that is an eclectic bit of cross shopping/buying
You and yur "older" brother sat in the back jump seat of a 911, until you were how old, seniors in high scholl, lol

Originally Posted by bimmerbabe69

Porsches, Pinto & VW "Bug", wow that is an eclectic bit of cross shopping/buying
You and yur "older" brother sat in the back jump seat of a 911, until you were how old, seniors in high scholl, lol

She never had a 911, well had a 930 but very briefly because the clutch setup does not work well with a shoe that has any bit of heel size. Pinto to 924 to 928 to 928 to Bug to Bug to nothing actually. It was not a "eclectric bit of cross shopping/buying" but more of as becoming more successful in life they bought what ever cars appealed to them at the time. The first 928 was actually bought with the intentions of selling, got it from a shutting down dealership but she liked how the car drove so much that she kept it and there went the 930 and years later the 924. The second 928 she actually did not like and went back to the first after awhile. The Bugs was more of because the very first new car she bought was a Bug and had some attachment to the models so got back into them when reintroduced.

But outside all of that, my point was that we sure seemed to manage just fine in coupes and I really am a firm believe that people with a "young child" would not have issues in any of them. I happen to know a couple where the wife drives a fairly new 911 and their toddlers fit in the back of it without issues. By the time those toddlers outgrow that 911, it will be time to sell the car by most peoples standards for length of car ownership anyway. I can even remember a few times being in my old Saleen or old 928 with my wife, step son and daughter and things were fine.

People who think a Cayenne is a sensible alternative, or a nostalgic fix of the 911 experience, obviously never cared or understood what is this thing called driving dynamics.

I am not blaming your wife at all, I cross-shopped a Cayenne as well when I was shopping for a crossover for my wife. She insisted I checked out the Cayenne.

While speaking to the salesman, it became apparent my wife was hardly alone. Many guys buy Cayennes for their wives so the guys can justify their own expensive toys.

You and I are clearly not one of them. In fact after I test drove the Cayenne, I failed to understand what was the big deal. It was still a crossover. Do people really believe they are driving a Porsche sport car when they are driving a Cayenne?

Luckily the payment on that Cayenne lease would have been nearly $1,400 a month, it wasn't difficult to change her mind and go for the MB SUV.

But I would have seen no issue getting a Porsche Cayman if the time comes.

Back to the topic. There are sports cars that are so intoxicating we will justify it for family purpose. But in the entry level luxury SPORTY car category, there is no reason to favor a coupe when the sedan is equally fun to drive and fits the family needs better.

Originally Posted by Snipe656

She never had a 911, well had a 930 but very briefly because the clutch setup does not work well with a shoe that has any bit of heel size. Pinto to 924 to 928 to 928 to Bug to Bug to nothing actually. It was not a "eclectric bit of cross shopping/buying" but more of as becoming more successful in life they bought what ever cars appealed to them at the time. The first 928 was actually bought with the intentions of selling, got it from a shutting down dealership but she liked how the car drove so much that she kept it and there went the 930 and years later the 924. The second 928 she actually did not like and went back to the first after awhile. The Bugs was more of because the very first new car she bought was a Bug and had some attachment to the models so got back into them when reintroduced.

But outside all of that, my point was that we sure seemed to manage just fine in coupes and I really am a firm believe that people with a "young child" would not have issues in any of them. I happen to know a couple where the wife drives a fairly new 911 and their toddlers fit in the back of it without issues. By the time those toddlers outgrow that 911, it will be time to sell the car by most peoples standards for length of car ownership anyway. I can even remember a few times being in my old Saleen or old 928 with my wife, step son and daughter and things were fine.

I don't know your age but if you ever had to put a baby in a car seat you would thnk differently. I cannot image picking up my 27 pound son and squeezing into the back seat of a coupe to put him in his rear facing seat. Sounds like torture to me. I guess when he's old enough to get in by himself and fasten the belts it might be different but in the case of the Mustang, the rear seats are tiny to begin with. I wouldn't ask my friends to climb in that seating area.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I don't know your age but if you ever had to put a baby in a car seat you would thnk differently. I cannot image picking up my 27 pound son and squeezing into the back seat of a coupe to put him in his rear facing seat. Sounds like torture to me. I guess when he's old enough to get in by himself and fasten the belts it might be different but in the case of the Mustang, the rear seats are tiny to begin with. I wouldn't ask my friends to climb in that seating area.

I have three kids(20, 10, and 2), I think that I have a very good idea of what it is like to get kids in/out of car seats. My two youngest have always gone with me in town and back for my daily commute.

Originally Posted by Snipe656

I have three kids(20, 10, and 2), I think that I have a very good idea of what it is like to get kids in/out of car seats. My two youngest have always gone with me in town and back for my daily commute.

I bet you do, that 20 year old must be a real PITA getting him in and out

Originally Posted by Snipe656

I have three kids(20, 10, and 2), I think that I have a very good idea of what it is like to get kids in/out of car seats. My two youngest have always gone with me in town and back for my daily commute.

Thank you. I guess we just disagree on the coupe vs 4 door debate in this case. I just think its way easier on me and my son in a 4 door than in a coupe. Not saying you can't have a coupe and a young child, just that it's far from ideal.

Can I ask what your procedure is for putting your youngest in the back seat of a coupe?

Originally Posted by SuperTerp

I bet you do, that 20 year old must be a real PITA getting him in and out

Yeah was such a PITA that we told him he had to move out of the house and go to college.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Can I ask what your procedure is for putting your youngest in the back seat of a coupe?

My 2 year old is in a front facing seat so I just lean down, rest my knee on the door seal and sit him in there. He is though old enough to crawl into the seat himself but I just sit him there since I need to mess with the seat's belts. It is harder to get him into a car seat within my extended cab truck than a coupe but I also keep the seat in the center of the truck instead of on one side. When it was rear facing seats I just hooked my arm in there and locked it into it's base. For the rear facing seats though it can greatly depend on seat selection. The second rear facing seat we got for our 335d sedan was a total PITA to get in/out of that car due to how high you had to lift it up to get it out of the base and how high the handle already was, that seat probably never would have worked in any coupe.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I don't know your age but if you ever had to put a baby in a car seat you would thnk differently. I cannot image picking up my 27 pound son and squeezing into the back seat of a coupe to put him in his rear facing seat.

That's exactly why I started buying 4-doors and then station wagons. (Only I found the 4-door and wagon configurations are a lot more convenient than a coupe even after the little kid has grown up and left the house!)

The general idea behind the Cayenne was a Porsche for those "awkward years" or decades in life when one needs to carry kids and stuff around. I thought Porsche had lost its collective marbles when it introduced the car but as you know it's a huge chunk of Porsche sales and profits today. There isn't a lot of room in a 911 for more than a driver and a passenger, so it's not the best vehicle to take to Home Depot or Costco, no matter what Porsche says in its commercials!

Originally Posted by Snipe656

Yeah was such a PITA that we told him he had to move out of the house and go to college.



My 2 year old is in a front facing seat so I just lean down, rest my knee on the door seal and sit him in there. He is though old enough to crawl into the seat himself but I just sit him there since I need to mess with the seat's belts. It is harder to get him into a car seat within my extended cab truck than a coupe but I also keep the seat in the center of the truck instead of on one side. When it was rear facing seats I just hooked my arm in there and locked it into it's base. For the rear facing seats though it can greatly depend on seat selection. The second rear facing seat we got for our 335d sedan was a total PITA to get in/out of that car due to how high you had to lift it up to get it out of the base and how high the handle already was, that seat probably never would have worked in any coupe.

Thanks. Our car seats don't have separate bases so our son needs to be put directly into the seat then belted in. I can't see doing this in a coupe. A coupe might be feasible with a front facing seat.

Originally Posted by Majikthese42

That's exactly why I started buying 4-doors and then station wagons. (Only I found the 4-door and wagon configurations are a lot more convenient than a coupe even after the little kid has grown up and left the house!)

The general idea behind the Cayenne was a Porsche for those "awkward years" or decades in life when one needs to carry kids and stuff around. I thought Porsche had lost its collective marbles when it introduced the car but as you know it's a huge chunk of Porsche sales and profits today. There isn't a lot of room in a 911 for more than a driver and a passenger, so it's not the best vehicle to take to Home Depot or Costco, no matter what Porsche says in its commercials!

A number of my Porsche club friends own both Caymans and 911s and use the 911s when they need extra room.

CA

Originally Posted by Snipe656

My mom drove nothing but coupes my whole life. There was her, me, my older brother and sometimes my dad in those cars daily. She drove Porsches almost exclusively except when I was really young she did have a Pinto then when I was past college she switched to Bugs. When growing up I do not recall ever once feeling cramped or anyone ever griping about space. It was not like we did not know what a big car was like because my dad pretty much always had an S class Mercedes. Not like we are a short family either.

In the days before mandatory car seats it was easy to put a kid in the back seat of a coupe. Now, try loading a kid into a rear facing car seat in the back of a Mustang. It's hard enough in our Subaru Outback.

Once my kid can do forward facing (age 2?), a Mustang will be back on the menu.

In other parts of the world, a family of 8 can live on one bicycle. We should be ashamed of ourselves.

Originally Posted by Chris90

In the days before mandatory car seats it was easy to put a kid in the back seat of a coupe. Now, try loading a kid into a rear facing car seat in the back of a Mustang. It's hard enough in our Subaru Outback.

Once my kid can do forward facing (age 2?), a Mustang will be back on the menu.

Age 2 is around when you go to the forward facing ones. Here it is based on weight and/or height of the child. For example someone mentioned I think a 27lb kid in a rear facing seat, I do not think you can do that here legally but I might be wrong.

My daughter has commuted daily with me from the age of about 1-2 months to her current age of 10. She obviously no longer is in any sort of special seat. But in the beginning I was still driving my old 928 so I did use a rear facing seat in that car without issues. After the 928 was the fox body Saleen Mustang(which is smaller that today's Mustangs) but I do not recall using a rear facing seat with her in that car and instead the front facing. At the same time as all that my mom watched both my daughter and my nephew during the work days. My mom at the time was driving her second Bug so she would have one rear facing seat and one front facing seat there for awhile. Those Bugs though had a surprising amount of passenger room, I recall many times 3-4 adults piling into those to go to lunch or some other errand.

As far as a rear facing seat being bad enough in an Outback. I think that has a lot to do with seat selection but I never have been in an Outback specifically. What I did experience with my 2 year old when he was younger and in rear facing seats is the first seat was a piece of cake in the 335d sedan but the second replacement seat was a total PITA. I have a friend who put his niece and her rear facing seat in the back of his 4 door Focus and had plenty of room and was a piece of cake. That same rear facing seat from his Focus when put into his brothers Escape leaves very little room, front seat actually has to be pushed all the way up.

On the Cadillac ATS: I love the idea that GM finally seems to be getting it's poop together and is beginning to build cars that people actually want to buy rather than mostly settling for. It is a good thing that Cadillac and Buick can openly say they're gunning for BMW and not get laughed out of the room.

Having said that, I absolutely loathe GM's interior design. It's a total deal breaker for me. Why does the interior of every GM product have to look like a rejected star trek prop? This isn't new, they've been doing it for more than a decade. And then they go a throw on a wood-trimed steering wheel. WTF? More is not More. When it comes to car styling more often than not less is more. BMW get's it. GM does not (yet).

Interior lay out of the CTS was one of the big things that pushed me away as was material(suede in particular) selection. The CTS feels smaller than it really is and I think it is because of how they did the interior. Would imagine they will repeat many of the same mistakes on the STS. For those that care about headliners if you cross shop the Caddy cars then look up at that, looks like the same headliner you'd find in a truck but I personally never look at or touch my headliners so do not actually care how they are.

Originally Posted by Snipe656

Interior lay out of the CTS was one of the big things that pushed me away as was material(suede in particular) selection.

I agree, I get the same feeling from the Corvette, you've got an amazing vehicle but plastic looking crap everywhere

Originally Posted by SuperTerp

I agree, I get the same feeling from the Corvette, you've got an amazing vehicle but plastic looking crap everywhere

Oh so true!