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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #51  
Old 02-03-2012, 07:49 AM
7or8 7or8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
How is it that the trade rags say things like "you wouldn't know this was a 4-cylinder just from driving the car"? Perhaps that is only when not being pushed?

I think some reviews said you wouldn't know it was a 4cyl when driving it, but when the car was idle you would, because of the sound and vibration. Could be the difference?
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  #52  
Old 02-03-2012, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
Mike,

How would you compare the N20 to the VAG 2.0T? An engine that has been winning awards for a while now. Not really power, but more on smoothness, sound, power delivery, etc.

I have yet to find a turbo 4 that is as smooth and linear as the Audi unit
Great question.
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  #53  
Old 02-03-2012, 09:06 AM
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Inline Sixer Inline Sixer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emission View Post
I forgot to add... one of the most striking things about the E90 -> F30 changeover is the driving dynamics. I swear they drive almost the same way.

It seems that nearly all of the changes are in cockpit (cosmetics, styling and electrical systems) and exterior styling. The mechanical bits and the driving dynamica are mostly unchanged. That really surprised me.

- Mike

P.S. - I am jumping behind the wheel of an F30 335i 6MT Sport for a five-hour drive back to LA. I'll answer more questions in six hours.
Mike,

You have commented about how the F30 335i seemed less sharp on turns compared to the F30 328i. Can you comment on the turn-in difference between the F30 335i and the E90 335i? Did it actually take a step backward, or is it the same -- but it's just that the N20-equipped F30 was just so much better balanced than any previous model?
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  #54  
Old 02-03-2012, 09:17 AM
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Based on Mike's input so far, I think I'll hang onto my '03 540iA M-sport for now.

:-(
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  #55  
Old 02-03-2012, 10:11 AM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inline Sixer View Post
Mike,

You have commented about how the F30 335i seemed less sharp on turns compared to the F30 328i. Can you comment on the turn-in difference between the F30 335i and the E90 335i? Did it actually take a step backward, or is it the same -- but it's just that the N20-equipped F30 was just so much better balanced than any previous model?
Good question!

Mike if I may ask a similar question. I am trying to decide between a 2011 E90 335i, and the F30 328i or 335i. If we assume the cost of a leftover E90 335i (with incentives) will be similar to the F30 328i, and the car is used for street driving but occasional autocrosses. How would you rank the three?

A new E90 335i AT, new F30 328i AT, and new F30 335i AT? The F30 335i will cost the most of course.

Last edited by dtc100; 02-03-2012 at 10:13 AM.
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  #56  
Old 02-03-2012, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
IS THE N20 SLUGGISH OFF THE LINE?

No, it actually develops its power earlier than the N55.
Hard facts reported by C&D dictate that 5-60mph of the Z4 N20 (slightly lighter than 328i) is much slower than 0-60mph. The gap between 5-60 and 0-60 is much narrower with the N55. This being said, a 5-60mph for a 328i is about the same as the previous one and ok.
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  #57  
Old 02-03-2012, 12:09 PM
7or8 7or8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Hard facts reported by C&D dictate that 5-60mph of the Z4 N20 (slightly lighter than 328i) is much slower than 0-60mph. The gap between 5-60 and 0-60 is much narrower with the N55. This being said, a 5-60mph for a 328i is about the same as the previous one and ok.
The thing is.. how can you be sure that BMWs implementation of the N20 in the F30 is going to act exactly like in the Z4? Seems like their implementation of the N54 in the 335i isn't producing the exact numbers as the same engine in the E90. I think you need to wait for actual instrument test results for 5-60 in the F30 before you can say this for sure.. who knows.

Last edited by 7or8; 02-03-2012 at 12:12 PM.
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  #58  
Old 02-03-2012, 12:10 PM
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Saintor - One is making 40lb/ft more torque at the same RPM, so makes sense. At those more moderate engine speeds, the 328i is still making 15% less power than the 335i.

To those commenting on staying away from the 4-cyl because of it's engine characteristics: Alot of folks dream about an e30 m3, including as a regular driver. Either BMW has made a less pleasant feeling 4-cyl 25 years later than the S14 in the e30 m3, or else you are basically saying you wouldn't want to drive an e30 m3 because of it's 4-cyl characteristics.

Fuel rail noise at idle would bother me too. Of course, that can be masked with more idle exhaust volume
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  #59  
Old 02-03-2012, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Saintor - One is making 40lb/ft more torque at the same RPM, so makes sense.
The big factor is that those figures are obtained on a test bench at slow speed variation.

When you have a sudden variation, the model is just different in real life, by the time the turbo spool up you are at 3000rpm.

This is why a small 4-cyl. turbo has a much larger difference between a 5-60mph and a 0-60mph than a larger 6 cyl.

Again

2012 0-60 / 5-60 by Car&Driver and EPA fuel cost
Z4 N20 manual 5.6 / 7.1 2067$ (the 328i is slightly more econo geared at 2033$).
Camry V6 auto 5.8 / 6.1 2034$

Just hard facts guys.
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  #60  
Old 02-03-2012, 12:40 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Fuel rail noise at idle would bother me too. Of course, that can be masked with more idle exhaust volume
I was surprised by the comments about the diesel like idle noise. My lowly Chevy Cruze Eco with its 1.8L turbo is dead quiet at idle.
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  #61  
Old 02-03-2012, 12:43 PM
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I was surprised by the comments about the diesel like idle noise. My lowly Chevy Cruze Eco with its 1.8L turbo is dead quiet at idle.
Direct injection makes things worse.
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  #62  
Old 02-03-2012, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
The big factor is that those figures are obtained on a test bench at slow speed variation.

When you have a sudden variation, the model is just different in real life, by the time the turbo spool up you are at 3000rpm.

This is why a small 4-cyl. turbo has a much larger difference between a 5-60mph and a 0-60mph than a larger 6 cyl.

Again

2012 0-60 / 5-60 by Car&Driver and EPA fuel cost
Z4 N20 manual 5.6 / 7.1 2067$ (the 328i is slightly more econo geared at 2033$).
Camry V6 auto 5.8 / 6.1 2034$

Just hard facts guys.
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  #63  
Old 02-03-2012, 01:00 PM
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Okay, I just put 300+ miles on a 335i 6MT (Monterey to LA).

Damn, was that fun!

The F30 with the N55 is one great package... still smiling. Let me compose my thoughts and give some more feedback in a few minutes.

- Mike
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  #64  
Old 02-03-2012, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
I know that you just can't stand hard facts with your pink glasses, but we'll talk later when C&D will publish a 328i full road test including a new 5-60mph.

Here is a shocker for ya; it won't be better than 6.1s (Camry V6's time).

I am saying all of this despite I *hate* Toyota, much less a Camry. The 328i F30 is likely to be my next car, because I can't justify the 8000$C for the Canadian 335i.
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  #65  
Old 02-03-2012, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7or8 View Post
Mike, can you comment on this later... how much lag is there in the F30 implementation of the N20 compared to the E90 N/A 328?

Thanks for all the great info! You the man!!
The N20 makes more torque quicker. Basic direct-injection turbocharged dynamics vs naturally aspirated. The N20 is much quicker off the line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
Mike,

How would you compare the N20 to the VAG 2.0T? An engine that has been winning awards for a while now. Not really power, but more on smoothness, sound, power delivery, etc.

I have yet to find a turbo 4 that is as smooth and linear as the Audi unit
The VAG TFSI 2.0-liter turbo in my A4 is smoother than the BMW N20.

- Mike
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I am fortunate to have unique press cars delivered weekly, but I own:

'13 Audi Q5 2.0T Quattro 8AT
'86 Porsche 911 Turbo 4MT


Gone, but never forgotten... my E70 X5 35d, E90 335i, E46 330i, E36 328i, E70 X5 3.0si, E53 X5 3.0i.
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  #66  
Old 02-03-2012, 01:04 PM
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mr_clueless mr_clueless is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
The big factor is that those figures are obtained on a test bench at slow speed variation.

When you have a sudden variation, the model is just different in real life, by the time the turbo spool up you are at 3000rpm.

This is why a small 4-cyl. turbo has a much larger difference between a 5-60mph and a 0-60mph than a larger 6 cyl.

Again

2012 0-60 / 5-60 by Car&Driver and EPA fuel cost
Z4 N20 manual 5.6 / 7.1 2067$ (the 328i is slightly more econo geared at 2033$).
Camry V6 auto 5.8 / 6.1 2034$

Just hard facts guys.
What happens when you get to the twisties?
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  #67  
Old 02-03-2012, 01:07 PM
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Emission Emission is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7or8 View Post
I think some reviews said you wouldn't know it was a 4cyl when driving it, but when the car was idle you would, because of the sound and vibration. Could be the difference?
Yes, while driving you'd be hard-pressed to tell a difference.

BTW, my good friend (another journalist who weighs 265 pounds and is built like the Terminator) just drove a 328i 6MT from Monterey to LA. He called and said, "wow, I could live with this thing every single day." (From a jaded journalist, that is a big compliment.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inline Sixer View Post
Mike,

You have commented about how the F30 335i seemed less sharp on turns compared to the F30 328i. Can you comment on the turn-in difference between the F30 335i and the E90 335i? Did it actually take a step backward, or is it the same -- but it's just that the N20-equipped F30 was just so much better balanced than any previous model?
Quite honestly, the F30 335i and E90 335i drive almost identically. Maybe a slight edge to the F30, just because of some minor weight savings?

The slower "turn-in" of the 335i vs 328i is mostly only noticed on the track. I just took a back windy road home in the 335i and it handled beautifully. I would swear it was my old E90 335i.

- Mike
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'86 Porsche 911 Turbo 4MT


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  #68  
Old 02-03-2012, 01:10 PM
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Emission Emission is offline
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BTW,

I am showing the car off tomorrow from 10AM - 12PM at:

GSR Autosport
22482 Muirlands Blvd. #B
Lake Forest, CA 92630


I want to put it on a lift to shoot some video for Autoblog.

Come by and say hello. We will have the BMW E92 V10 drift car and the Z4 Turbo S52 Formula Drift car there as well.

- Mike
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I am fortunate to have unique press cars delivered weekly, but I own:

'13 Audi Q5 2.0T Quattro 8AT
'86 Porsche 911 Turbo 4MT


Gone, but never forgotten... my E70 X5 35d, E90 335i, E46 330i, E36 328i, E70 X5 3.0si, E53 X5 3.0i.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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  #69  
Old 02-03-2012, 01:10 PM
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justinnum1 justinnum1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
What happens when you get to the twisties?
He dont care, he likes to cherry pick #'s...not to mention that 5-60 time car and driver had some tyoe of problem getting traction down...just look at the test notes that he failed to include...
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  #70  
Old 02-03-2012, 01:14 PM
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Emission Emission is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Good question!

Mike if I may ask a similar question. I am trying to decide between a 2011 E90 335i, and the F30 328i or 335i. If we assume the cost of a leftover E90 335i (with incentives) will be similar to the F30 328i, and the car is used for street driving but occasional autocrosses. How would you rank the three?

A new E90 335i AT, new F30 328i AT, and new F30 335i AT? The F30 335i will cost the most of course.
The 328i will be the best Auto-X vehicle. But, the buttery-smooth N55 was a dream on my drive today. If money is an issue, F30 N20, but if you can swing the inline-6...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Hard facts reported by C&D dictate that 5-60mph of the Z4 N20 (slightly lighter than 328i) is much slower than 0-60mph. The gap between 5-60 and 0-60 is much narrower with the N55. This being said, a 5-60mph for a 328i is about the same as the previous one and ok.
Do they use the same 8AT gearbox? I honestly don't know...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7or8 View Post
The thing is.. how can you be sure that BMWs implementation of the N20 in the F30 is going to act exactly like in the Z4? Seems like their implementation of the N54 in the 335i isn't producing the exact numbers as the same engine in the E90. I think you need to wait for actual instrument test results for 5-60 in the F30 before you can say this for sure.. who knows.
True, BMW is tuning every application differently today (regardless of HP figures).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Direct injection makes things worse.
True, nearly all the sound is from the injectors mounted directly up top. The N20 has a huge plastic shield... below it is a thick insulation pad.

- Mike
__________________
I am fortunate to have unique press cars delivered weekly, but I own:

'13 Audi Q5 2.0T Quattro 8AT
'86 Porsche 911 Turbo 4MT


Gone, but never forgotten... my E70 X5 35d, E90 335i, E46 330i, E36 328i, E70 X5 3.0si, E53 X5 3.0i.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Read my work as West Coast Editor for Autoblog!
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  #71  
Old 02-03-2012, 01:19 PM
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Okay, I just drove nearly 6 hours in the F30 335i 6MT (with one quick stop for a Red Bull).

Cutting to the chase, the uber-refined N55 really sweetened the deal. While it is only marginally quicker than the N20, a light throttle application is met by that oh-so-familiar inline-6 growl and a push in the back. So cool. So BMW.

It's smoothness was appreciated... even though I often forget how good it really is. If you can swing the 335i, I'd go for it.

My fuel economy was 29 mpg in "eco mode" for the first 150 miles. Then I went to "sport" and earned 31 mpg. Truth is, the engine is so green it is still breaking it (it hit 1,500 miles on the odo just before I got home).

- Mike
__________________
I am fortunate to have unique press cars delivered weekly, but I own:

'13 Audi Q5 2.0T Quattro 8AT
'86 Porsche 911 Turbo 4MT


Gone, but never forgotten... my E70 X5 35d, E90 335i, E46 330i, E36 328i, E70 X5 3.0si, E53 X5 3.0i.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Read my work as West Coast Editor for Autoblog!
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  #72  
Old 02-03-2012, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emission
The VAG TFSI 2.0-liter turbo in my A4 is smoother than the BMW N20.
I agree with that.
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  #73  
Old 02-03-2012, 01:34 PM
7or8 7or8 is offline
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Mike, again, thanks a lot for taking the time to answer our questions!
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  #74  
Old 02-03-2012, 01:42 PM
BobBigMan BobBigMan is offline
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That's a surprise to hear the VAG 2.0T is smoother considering the N20 is a brand new engine. Maybe Audi has isolated things better rather than anything else?
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  #75  
Old 02-03-2012, 01:51 PM
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That's a surprise to hear the VAG 2.0T is smoother considering the N20 is a brand new engine. Maybe Audi has isolated things better rather than anything else?
lol
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