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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #76  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:16 PM
sdg1871 sdg1871 is offline
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Originally Posted by jimefam View Post
Thought I'd bump this for some data, today was the first test and tune at one of my local tracks so I drove the 2 hrs to the track. I barely had fuel left when I got there as the idea was to get some runs in with 93 octane and then with VP's MS109(chose it because I thought it would give me the greatest differential) so I make the first couple of passes which ranged from horrible(1st pass was 13.7@109.18) to best(13.09@109.65) then I was out of fuel to where range to empty literally said ---. I put 3 gallons of race fuel in and make the first pass. Now I had expected to see everything the same while the dme adapted but I ran 13.4@108.18! WTF? So I said it must take time adapt but I ran 9 more passes and the best I could muster was 13.28@108.35 with my best 60' ever of 2.074. I dropped about 1.5mph of trap speed and I have NO idea why. Now that may seem like a little but as a reference my friend who has a 2011 550i just like mine(on 20" also) except he has the dinan stage 2 ran his car and had a top trap speed of 111.5. So he ran just over 1.8mph faster than me with what's supposed to be a 100hp difference. I'm not sure why the difference it could be the oxygenated fuel or it may be nothing but I found it interesting and unexpected none the less.
Very interesting. I wonder if you would have run faster on 19s.
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  #77  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:30 PM
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Ed Wallace, a local automotive expert, has a 5 hour show every Saturday morning on the radio in the DFW area called "Wheels." When asked if you need high-octane fuel in modern cars, his standard answer is, "I have never used anything but 87 octane in any car I've owned since 1999." He maintains any car sold in America since 1999 will run on 87 octane just fine without any damage whatsoever. He does say that ethanol does do damage to our engines and that the government is going to increase the percentage of ethanol that may be used in our fuels. This will result in shorter lifespans for our engines.

Last edited by w5lx; 02-11-2012 at 03:46 PM.
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  #78  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:43 PM
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I'm bit confused by your oxygenated fuel comment. Were you using MS109E or was you or your friend running some other type oxygenated fuel? Maybe the MS109 tripped an engine safety feature.

Today's cold weather should have been challenging for traction, but great for some additional power. What was your friends best 60', qtr/trap combination under these conditions.
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  #79  
Old 02-11-2012, 04:49 PM
jimefam jimefam is offline
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
I'm bit confused by your oxygenated fuel comment. Were you using MS109E or was you or your friend running some other type oxygenated fuel? Maybe the MS109 tripped an engine safety feature.

Today's cold weather should have been challenging for traction, but great for some additional power. What was your friends best 60', qtr/trap combination under these conditions.
MS109 is oxygenated with mtbe while MS109E is oxygenated with ethanol. He didn't use any race fuel and his best time was 12.94@111.5 but I don't recall his best 60' but it wasn't anything too great or terrible. He definitely could improve that time with some practice as it was his first time at the strip and also he doesn't have the paddles which I THINK means no sports auto and may effect his shift times compared to mine.

SDG I'm sure I would do better with 19's just unsure of how much better.

W5lx I don't buy what Mr.Wallace is saying at all.

Last edited by jimefam; 02-12-2012 at 07:34 AM.
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  #80  
Old 02-11-2012, 04:51 PM
sdg1871 sdg1871 is offline
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Originally Posted by jimefam View Post
MS109 is oxygenated with mtbe while MS109E is oxygenated with ethanol. He didn't use any race fuel and his best time was 12.94@111.5 but I don't recall his best 60' but it wasn't anything too great or terrible. He definitely could improve that time with some practice as it was his first time at the strip and also he doesn't have the paddles which I THINK means no sports auto and may affect his shift times compared to mine.

SDG I'm sure I would do better with 19's just unsure of how much better.
Yes 20s are for show more than for go. But they sure do look good.

What kind of tires was your Dinan Stage 2 friend running?
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  #81  
Old 02-11-2012, 05:05 PM
jimefam jimefam is offline
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Yes 20s are for show more than for go. But they sure do look good.

What kind of tires was your Dinan Stage 2 friend running?
285/35/20 PS2's while I'm running Ventus V12's 305/25/20. I'd used the Ventus before and loved them but I'm not liking them on this car, probably cause they only make them in 25 height which is too little sidewall. I was real hesitant to put 20's on it for the same reasons your saying but the car looks sooo much better with 20's
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  #82  
Old 02-11-2012, 05:14 PM
sdg1871 sdg1871 is offline
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285/35/20 PS2's while I'm running Ventus V12's 305/25/20. I'd used the Ventus before and loved them but I'm not liking them on this car, probably cause they only make them in 25 height which is too little sidewall. I was real hesitant to put 20's on it for the same reasons your saying but the car looks sooo much better with 20's
Your friend is running good rubber. 19s would be faster. For me, given that I live in NYC, 20s are not an option. As it is 19s are pushing it given the deplorable nature of the roads here
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  #83  
Old 02-11-2012, 05:20 PM
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Why don't we get back on topic and discuss what kinds of fuel members are using and why?
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  #84  
Old 02-11-2012, 05:41 PM
sdg1871 sdg1871 is offline
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Why don't we get back on topic and discuss what kinds of fuel members are using and why?
High test as Costco is my normal choice. I always use high test and have never noticed a performance difference regardless of the source.
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  #85  
Old 02-11-2012, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jimefam View Post
285/35/20 PS2's while I'm running Ventus V12's 305/25/20. I'd used the Ventus before and loved them but I'm not liking them on this car, probably cause they only make them in 25 height which is too little sidewall. I was real hesitant to put 20's on it for the same reasons your saying but the car looks sooo much better with 20's
His tires are almost two inches taller than yours. Have you tried the extra cushioning on his car? I think it might be too squishy.


@OP: I usually buy BP or Shell with 93 Octane.
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  #86  
Old 02-11-2012, 06:43 PM
jimefam jimefam is offline
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His tires are almost two inches taller than yours. Have you tried the extra cushioning on his car? I think it might be too squishy.


@OP: I usually buy BP or Shell with 93 Octane.
I've never ridden in his car but he says he loves how it rides and I'm sure it's probably a good bit smoother and quieter than my 25 sidewall. I'll probably go with the ps2's when I need to change. Oh and I just use Shell 93.
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  #87  
Old 02-11-2012, 07:37 PM
nhs156 nhs156 is offline
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Ethanol, when blended with regular gasoline, is a performance killer. No ifs, ands or buts (IMHO, of course!). The most visceral experience I've had to confirm this is on my sportbike - 1000cc, 180 hp high-revving sportbike (Yamaha R1); have experienced the same on smaller capacity (600cc) bikes as well. Gas with ethanol makes the bike stutter and hesitate, and makes for uneven idling in summer/hot temps - sometimes even has the effect of stalling the bike. Mechanics focused on high performance motorcycles will attest to derogatory effects of ethanol in fuel, in my experience.

While I'm not familiar with chemical properties of ethanol, I have a hunch that it's added to fuel primarily to save the oil companies a bit of money by reducing cost, hence improving margin per pumped gallon. But I have no facts or figures to back this up!
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  #88  
Old 02-11-2012, 07:48 PM
jimefam jimefam is offline
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Ethanol, when blended with regular gasoline, is a performance killer. No ifs, ands or buts (IMHO, of course!). The most visceral experience I've had to confirm this is on my sportbike - 1000cc, 180 hp high-revving sportbike (Yamaha R1); have experienced the same on smaller capacity (600cc) bikes as well. Gas with ethanol makes the bike stutter and hesitate, and makes for uneven idling in summer/hot temps - sometimes even has the effect of stalling the bike. Mechanics focused on high performance motorcycles will attest to derogatory effects of ethanol in fuel, in my experience.

While I'm not familiar with chemical properties of ethanol, I have a hunch that it's added to fuel primarily to save the oil companies a bit of money by reducing cost, hence improving margin per pumped gallon. But I have no facts or figures to back this up!
Tell that to all the race cars now running E85 instead of gasoline race fuel. Also a gallon of ethanol costs more than a gallon of gasoline and the only way that E85 is close is because of the subsidy ethanol receives.
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  #89  
Old 02-11-2012, 07:59 PM
nhs156 nhs156 is offline
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Tell that to all the race cars now running E85 instead of gasoline race fuel. Also a gallon of ethanol costs more than a gallon of gasoline and the only way that E85 is close is because of the subsidy ethanol receives.
I don't need to, as I've experienced the adverse effects first hand of 10% ethanol fuel in engines designed to run on pure gasoline. Your argument about race cars tuned to run on E85 is neither here nor there.

Last edited by nhs156; 02-11-2012 at 08:02 PM.
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  #90  
Old 02-11-2012, 08:53 PM
jimefam jimefam is offline
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I don't need to, as I've experienced the adverse effects first hand of 10% ethanol fuel in engines designed to run on pure gasoline. Your argument about race cars tuned to run on E85 is neither here nor there.
My point is ethanol is not a performance killer and certainly won't harm your engine(as someone said above) it may be that your tune is off but ethanol is a better fuel for performance you may just need to adjust your tune. For example look at my experience today at the track with 93 vs MS109, does that mean that race fuel is a performance killer? No it means my tune needs adjustment to the fuel I'm using but overall the fuel is better for performance.

Edit: another example is the ford flex fueled vehicles which run a sensor that detects the % of ethanol in the fuel and adjust the tune accordingly. The higher the ethanol content the more performance increases.

Last edited by jimefam; 02-11-2012 at 08:54 PM.
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  #91  
Old 02-12-2012, 06:32 AM
nhs156 nhs156 is offline
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My point is ethanol is not a performance killer and certainly won't harm your engine(as someone said above) it may be that your tune is off but ethanol is a better fuel for performance you may just need to adjust your tune. For example look at my experience today at the track with 93 vs MS109, does that mean that race fuel is a performance killer? No it means my tune needs adjustment to the fuel I'm using but overall the fuel is better for performance.

Edit: another example is the ford flex fueled vehicles which run a sensor that detects the % of ethanol in the fuel and adjust the tune accordingly. The higher the ethanol content the more performance increases.
Hang on a minute. So if there's nothing but benefit of running with E85 fuel in an engine not designed for high content ethanol fuel, why won't car manufacturers honor warranty claims when they find out you've been running out of spec fuel? (A quick google on the subject last night appeared to confirm warranty denial across multiple brands, or at least serious concerns to that effect). I hear it has something to do with accelerated wear and tear on engine components that corrode much faster when subjected to alcohol, but then I'm no expert.
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  #92  
Old 02-12-2012, 07:27 AM
jimefam jimefam is offline
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Hang on a minute. So if there's nothing but benefit of running with E85 fuel in an engine not designed for high content ethanol fuel, why won't car manufacturers honor warranty claims when they find out you've been running out of spec fuel? (A quick google on the subject last night appeared to confirm warranty denial across multiple brands, or at least serious concerns to that effect). I hear it has something to do with accelerated wear and tear on engine components that corrode much faster when subjected to alcohol, but then I'm no expert.
Now don't misunderstand what I'm saying I'm not telling you that if you put E85 into your M5 your gonna see some increase in performance because you wont, in fact your performance will probably suffer. However that isn't due to ethanol being a poor performance fuel it would be because your tune wouldn't be set up for it. If you did however adjust your tune you'd most likely see a good bump in performance but a good drop in mpg also. Your engine wouldn't be affected but the rubber in your fuel lines would harden and crack over time. Also if it was a motor that had been run for a long time with gasoline and you put a high ethanol content in it could clean the deposits in your gas tank and fuel lines and while that would be a long term benefit it could clog the fuel injectors and cause it to run poorly. These are simple things to avoid but if not accounted for it could cause problems. Ohhh and car companies try to get out of EVERY issue whether it's their fault or not. The problem with ethanol is the lower mpg and the higher cost vs gasoline but for pure performance it has a ton more potential than 93 octane gasoline.

Also I doubt the 10% ethanol in our pump gas would have negative effects since it is most certainly something BMW can plan for. If they can make adjustments for safety laws here and make little pointless changes like limit DVD while driving and take the psi readings out of the tpms system I'm sure they can change some fuel lines and adjust the tune for US spec cars.

Last edited by jimefam; 02-12-2012 at 07:32 AM.
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  #93  
Old 02-12-2012, 09:49 AM
alextremo alextremo is offline
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Shell 93 only. If BT ever comes out with a scan tool for our cars you can datalog and you will see the engine pull timing if you use lower octane gas. I did this with my previous car and switched from Mobil to Shell and never looked back. You might not notice this during normal city driving where you max out at <25% throttle under light load, but do a 3rd gear WOT pull to redline and I guarantee you will see indications of the ECU reacting to knock if you put less than 91 octane in the tank.

Jimefam - I wonder if that MS109 you got was bad. It doesn't make sense for the traps to go down - even if the car didn't adjust for the higher octane I would think they would stay nearly the same, all other things equal.
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  #94  
Old 02-12-2012, 11:18 AM
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I always put >92. I have always read that you will get worse mpg going with regular so the cost is neutral.
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  #95  
Old 02-12-2012, 11:24 AM
jimefam jimefam is offline
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Jimefam - I wonder if that MS109 you got was bad. It doesn't make sense for the traps to go down - even if the car didn't adjust for the higher octane I would think they would stay nearly the same, all other things equal.
I thought the same, also I thought maybe he gave me something else perhaps with lead in it and maybe that was why?? They have a 20' container with multiple 50 gallon tanks in it from which he draws the fuel into a smaller bottle then puts it in my car. Maybe he pulled from the wrong one, although I'm not sure why the lead would hurt either. Or perhaps the oxygen in the fuel messed with the dme's AFR targeting? I don't know I figured what you did, at worst it wouldn't do anything maybe I just sucked at driving or something. Makes me want to dyno on the same day running super low with 93 then put some race fuel in and see what it does.

Last edited by jimefam; 02-12-2012 at 11:26 AM.
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  #96  
Old 02-12-2012, 01:28 PM
lcadena lcadena is offline
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To get back on topic, I just looked at the manual for my new 528xi and saw that, to mo surprise, BMW now recommends 91 octane gas but says that 89 octane gas can be used without a problem. It does state that 89 octane gas may cause some knocking in hotter climates when first starting the engine but will not cause any short or long-term damage to the engine and is fully endorsed as a fuel choice by BMW. Go figure. I also looked on the gas cap, and it states "89 octane minimum." Big change from my E46!
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  #97  
Old 02-12-2012, 03:39 PM
alextremo alextremo is offline
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Originally Posted by jimefam View Post
I thought the same, also I thought maybe he gave me something else perhaps with lead in it and maybe that was why?? They have a 20' container with multiple 50 gallon tanks in it from which he draws the fuel into a smaller bottle then puts it in my car. Maybe he pulled from the wrong one, although I'm not sure why the lead would hurt either. Or perhaps the oxygen in the fuel messed with the dme's AFR targeting? I don't know I figured what you did, at worst it wouldn't do anything maybe I just sucked at driving or something. Makes me want to dyno on the same day running super low with 93 then put some race fuel in and see what it does.
10 to 1 you got some bad gas. Maybe it picked up some moisture from sitting over the off season. I had a 5 gal sealed VP container from a local speed shop. It actually sat for almost a year, but I know it was sealed and in a pretty stable environment in my garage.
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  #98  
Old 02-12-2012, 03:54 PM
nhs156 nhs156 is offline
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Originally Posted by alextremo View Post
10 to 1 you got some bad gas. Maybe it picked up some moisture from sitting over the off season. I had a 5 gal sealed VP container from a local speed shop. It actually sat for almost a year, but I know it was sealed and in a pretty stable environment in my garage.
Unfortunately not - checked for bad fuel/water several times. The problem is consistent, and doesn't go away with brand of fuel/gas station. It's a common issue in the world of motorcycling - so much so that people buy all sorts of products to counteract the effects of ethanol. I too have done it, though the name of the product momentarily escapes me.

Edit: Just found the bottle in my garage. It's called Star Tron - Enzyme Fuel Treatment. On their website they say:

"Ethanol / E10 fuels increase the amounts of water and sludge in your fuel tank. Star Tron breaks down this excess water and sludge to sub-micron size allowing it to be safely burned away during normal engine operation. Therefore Star Tron prevents phase separation and fuel gelling, eliminating ethanol fuel problems."

Apparently it also helps increase mpgs, though I've never measured the before and after effect. It did decrease engine stuttering and hesitation, though, and made for more linear and predictable power delivery.

http://mystarbrite.com/startron/

Last edited by nhs156; 02-12-2012 at 04:01 PM.
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  #99  
Old 02-12-2012, 03:56 PM
nhs156 nhs156 is offline
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Originally Posted by jimefam View Post
If you did however adjust your tune you'd most likely see a good bump in performance but a good drop in mpg also.
You mean mpg in the city might go from high single digits to something slightly lower? Now if you could point me in the direction of something that might bump mpgs, I'd be interested.
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Old 02-12-2012, 04:10 PM
alextremo alextremo is offline
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Unfortunately not - checked for bad fuel/water several times. The problem is consistent, and doesn't go away with brand of fuel/gas station. It's a common issue in the world of motorcycling - so much so that people buy all sorts of products to counteract the effects of ethanol. I too have done it, though the name of the product momentarily escapes me.

Edit: Just found the bottle in my garage. It's called Star Tron - Enzyme Fuel Treatment. On their website they say:

"Ethanol / E10 fuels increase the amounts of water and sludge in your fuel tank. Star Tron breaks down this excess water and sludge to sub-micron size allowing it to be safely burned away during normal engine operation. Therefore Star Tron prevents phase separation and fuel gelling, eliminating ethanol fuel problems."

Apparently it also helps increase mpgs, though I've never measured the before and after effect. It did decrease engine stuttering and hesitation, though, and made for more linear and predictable power delivery.

http://mystarbrite.com/startron/
I was talking about the race fuel, not ethanol additive.
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