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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #251  
Old 08-11-2011, 02:47 PM
98540iA 98540iA is offline
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If you are getting a check coolant level message then you have a leak somewhere. I have had no problem with green coolant in my cooling system for years. My temps stay within spec and my maintenance is up to date so I haven't had the dreaded check coolant level message in a long time (knocking on wood). I am very skeptical of this zero pressure stuff.... if it was truly zero pressure it wouldn't flow thru the engine, hoses and radiator would it?
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  #252  
Old 08-11-2011, 03:09 PM
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chiefwej chiefwej is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 98540iA View Post
If you are getting a check coolant level message then you have a leak somewhere. I have had no problem with green coolant in my cooling system for years. My temps stay within spec and my maintenance is up to date so I haven't had the dreaded check coolant level message in a long time (knocking on wood). I am very skeptical of this zero pressure stuff.... if it was truly zero pressure it wouldn't flow thru the engine, hoses and radiator would it?
This has been addressed. If you have read the posts in this thread you would know that. The movement of fluid through the system has nothing to do with the 30 pounds or so of constant pressure on the system.

My radiator hoses are always soft even when the car is at full operating temp. I can drive for hours at highway speeds, then stop and open the radiator cap with no drama. Give that a try with your green coolant and report back. Zero pressure means there is never any pressure in the radiator. I have even removed the O ring on the top of the pressure cap to insure that there is never any pressure in the radiator or reservoir tank.
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Last edited by chiefwej; 08-11-2011 at 03:13 PM.
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  #253  
Old 08-11-2011, 03:24 PM
gladiator_jai gladiator_jai is offline
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^^ Agreed, I have been following this stuff and the thread since it was created last year. Now that chief has been running it for a year without any issues, I think I have the confidence to go ahead with it. Just hoping that the leak is only a hose or the expansion tank and not a crack in the radiator. I can afford it but rather not for at least 6 months. I'd rather do a suspension overhaul, she's starting going clink-clank over small potholes now.
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  #254  
Old 08-11-2011, 03:35 PM
98540iA 98540iA is offline
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Ok, I'm guilty of skipping thru most of the thread but now I do recall reading about the soft hoses, etc. No matter, a healthy and maintained cooling system will rarely have a catastrophic failure and a zero pressure cooling system most likely can still potentially have a catastrophic failure.
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  #255  
Old 08-11-2011, 05:24 PM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 98540iA View Post
... if it was truly zero pressure it wouldn't flow thru the engine, hoses and radiator would it?
Ever heard of a water pump? All else being equal, a zero- or minimal-pressure system is less likely to pop the same hoses or crack the same radiators than a system running at 30 psi. Of course there are no absolutes. You could still be hit be a meteor...
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  #256  
Old 08-11-2011, 05:28 PM
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chiefwej chiefwej is offline
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Originally Posted by 98540iA View Post
Ok, I'm guilty of skipping thru most of the thread but now I do recall reading about the soft hoses, etc. No matter, a healthy and maintained cooling system will rarely have a catastrophic failure and a zero pressure cooling system most likely can still potentially have a catastrophic failure.
So you are saying that a radiator with 30 pounds of pressure is no more likely to explode than one with no pressure? Right, explain that logic please.
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  #257  
Old 08-11-2011, 06:18 PM
98540iA 98540iA is offline
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Originally Posted by pleiades View Post
Ever heard of a water pump? All else being equal, a zero- or minimal-pressure system is less likely to pop the same hoses or crack the same radiators than a system running at 30 psi. Of course there are no absolutes. You could still be hit be a meteor...
Whats a water pump? Ever hear of snake oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefwej View Post
So you are saying that a radiator with 30 pounds of pressure is no more likely to explode than one with no pressure? Right, explain that logic please.
Did you read me post that? I didn't say anything about one being better or more likely to explode than the other.
Go ahead and use your magic water and when something "explodes" just remember how you jumped down my throat just because I disagreed with you.
People who don't respect differing opinions than there own suck.
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  #258  
Old 08-11-2011, 06:42 PM
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doru doru is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 98540iA View Post
Ok, I'm guilty of skipping thru most of the thread but now I do recall reading about the soft hoses, etc. No matter, a healthy and maintained cooling system will rarely have a catastrophic failure and a zero pressure cooling system most likely can still potentially have a catastrophic failure.
Actually this is the intrigueing quote.
I would like to know why also...
Because at "0" psi pressure, it cannot burst from the inside...like the conventional BMW cooling system at +/- 30 psi pressure from the inside.
The problem with the pressurized system is, once any strain from the outside is applied to the cooling system it can have catastrophic results. Like some loosy-goosy motormounts for example. With NPG+ for example you can still floor the pedal if you wish, even if you have some loose motormounts, because now the upper hose is not stiff - she will allow some give and not break the radiator neck.
The only "catastrophic" failure candidates that remain on a zero pressure system are the fan clutch, WP, and belt & associte pullies.
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  #259  
Old 08-11-2011, 06:44 PM
gladiator_jai gladiator_jai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 98540iA View Post
Whats a water pump? Ever hear of snake oil?


Did you read me post that? I didn't say anything about one being better or more likely to explode than the other.
Go ahead and use your magic water and when something "explodes" just remember how you jumped down my throat just because I disagreed with you.
People who don't respect differing opinions than there own suck.
With all deserved respect,

You are right, a well maintained cooling system should not have a catastrophic failure but the probability of failure is very high on E39's. If your car has not exhibited such catastrophe then I am happy for you. However that does not mean you have the right to look down upon other peoples choice of trying something different. You don't believe it fine but do not force your opinion.

And fyi after about 2 hours of me ordering the NPG+ my coolant is on the ground and out of my well maintained cooling system.
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  #260  
Old 08-11-2011, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pleiades View Post
Ever heard of a water pump? All else being equal, a zero- or minimal-pressure system is less likely to pop the same hoses or crack the same radiators than a system running at 30 psi. Of course there are no absolutes. You could still be hit be a meteor...
Best comments I've seen all year. Nice work bro!
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  #261  
Old 08-11-2011, 10:30 PM
98540iA 98540iA is offline
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WOW, seems I struck a nerve here. Let's review: I enter thread with the obvious (if check coolant warning goes off you have a leak) and then state I am skeptical and ask a question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 98540iA View Post
If you are getting a check coolant level message then you have a leak somewhere. I have had no problem with green coolant in my cooling system for years. My temps stay within spec and my maintenance is up to date so I haven't had the dreaded check coolant level message in a long time (knocking on wood). I am very skeptical of this zero pressure stuff.... if it was truly zero pressure it wouldn't flow thru the engine, hoses and radiator would it?
No attacking, no forcing my opinion on anyone just stating my skepticism and asking a question. chiefwej explains but with a bit of attitude.... and I reply with the following, again not attacking or forcing my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 98540iA View Post
Ok, I'm guilty of skipping thru most of the thread but now I do recall reading about the soft hoses, etc. No matter, a healthy and maintained cooling system will rarely have a catastrophic failure and a zero pressure cooling system most likely can still potentially have a catastrophic failure.
Then come the attacks on me for not jumping on the zero pressure bandwagon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pleiades View Post
Ever heard of a water pump? All else being equal, a zero- or minimal-pressure system is less likely to pop the same hoses or crack the same radiators than a system running at 30 psi. Of course there are no absolutes. You could still be hit be a meteor...
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefwej View Post
So you are saying that a radiator with 30 pounds of pressure is no more likely to explode than one with no pressure? Right, explain that logic please.
My radiator never exploded....
So after getting bxxch slapped by these two guys I slapped back a bit. Granted I was a little snippy but if you slap me be prepared to be slapped back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 98540iA View Post
Whats a water pump? Ever hear of snake oil?


Did you read me post that? I didn't say anything about one being better or more likely to explode than the other.
Go ahead and use your magic water and when something "explodes" just remember how you jumped down my throat just because I disagreed with you.
People who don't respect differing opinions than there own suck.
Then comes this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gladiator_jai View Post
With all deserved respect,

You are right, a well maintained cooling system should not have a catastrophic failure but the probability of failure is very high on E39's. If your car has not exhibited such catastrophe then I am happy for you. However that does not mean you have the right to look down upon other peoples choice of trying something different. You don't believe it fine but do not force your opinion.

And fyi after about 2 hours of me ordering the NPG+ my coolant is on the ground and out of my well maintained cooling system.
1st of all, the probability of catastrophic failure on e39's is not very high, not any higher than most other cars (reading too many forums). The probability of some type of cooling system failure might be higher than other cars but not catasrophic failure. I have experienced 3 cooling system failures and none of them was even close to catastrophic (heater hose at rear of engine sprung a leak, upper radiator hose started to balloon a bit, radiator started leaking a little). All happened at different times and none caused an overheat situation because I keep a close eye on my car and replace anything that fails immediately.

Then the passive aggressive attack...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack View Post
Best comments I've seen all year. Nice work bro!
totally bro....



Quote:
Originally Posted by doru View Post
Actually this is the intrigueing quote.
I would like to know why also...
Because at "0" psi pressure, it cannot burst from the inside...like the conventional BMW cooling system at +/- 30 psi pressure from the inside.
The problem with the pressurized system is, once any strain from the outside is applied to the cooling system it can have catastrophic results. Like some loosy-goosy motormounts for example. With NPG+ for example you can still floor the pedal if you wish, even if you have some loose motormounts, because now the upper hose is not stiff - she will allow some give and not break the radiator neck.
The only "catastrophic" failure candidates that remain on a zero pressure system are the fan clutch, WP, and belt & associte pullies.
This seems to make sense, specifically the "give" due to the hose not being stiff. However, the fan clutch, water pump, thermostat and radiator still can and will still fail at some point. I'm not saying (and never did) that this NPG stuff is any worse than the green or blue stuff but just questioned whether it was really much better and worth the cost. I also didn't say anything about anything bursting from the inside, I just stated that it is not impossible for a zero pressure cooling system to have a catastrophic failure, which after all of that you admit to at the end.

So chiefwej has used this stuff for one year now without issues.... that's great and I'm glad he's had no issues. I've used my green stuff for about 3 years now with no issues (the failures I did have where during my first couple years owning the car on original parts). I'm old school, "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is how I live. But any clue of failure and it's getting fixed immediately.

I didn't come in here to attack anyone or to be attacked.... but yet I even got a nasty PM from some doosh-bag who apparently was offended by my posts. What a fxxkin' moron that guy is.... so I let him know what I thought of him because although I try to be cool and collected I'm not going to sit back and take it when someone attacks me. I'm too old and I have been around too long to put up with sxxt from some axxhole who wants to be a punk. Said doosh-bag is now the only member on my "ignore" list.

I will now bow out of this thread and wish you all the best with whatever coolant (or any part or supply) you choose to put into your car. I am an e39 enthusiast and I hate to see or hear about a failure on any part of your car. I try to help out in any way that I can because I truly love the e39 and I have no ill will towards anyone on this forum or elsewhere. Feel free to disagree but please don't attack me for disagreeing or questioning or even asking a dumb question. Have respect for all regardless of opinion, model, engine size, tranny, exhaust preference, economic status, race, religion, etc.
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  #262  
Old 08-12-2011, 07:25 AM
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doru doru is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 98540iA View Post
This seems to make sense, specifically the "give" due to the hose not being stiff. However, the fan clutch, water pump, thermostat and radiator still can and will still fail at some point. I'm not saying (and never did) that this NPG stuff is any worse than the green or blue stuff but just questioned whether it was really much better and worth the cost. I also didn't say anything about anything bursting from the inside, I just stated that it is not impossible for a zero pressure cooling system to have a catastrophic failure, which after all of that you admit to at the end.
No anger here.
But this is the essence: by removing the "conventional " coolant with it's boiling temp, and replacing with NPG+ with higher boiling temp (which in our case - e39 - will not boil), you remove the "catastrophic failure" of the cooling components where the cooling fluid travels with the exception of the WP & T-stat. For the WP you have to judge yourself and chose a WP with metal impeller. For the T-stat not many options, but I believe the i6 T-stat (electronically controlled) will fail more often, once the fan clutch fails due to internal fluid loss (no more catching, low cooling ability, and the higher static/idling temps) which will NOT trigger the needle, although the temp will be 3-4C higher than normal. Also this slightly higher temp will destroy also the plastics and rubbers sooner.
At the end, the cooling system is more balanced, and actually your only worry would be fan & fan clutch and the belt + pullies. Which have NOTHING TO DO with NPG+.
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  #263  
Old 08-12-2011, 07:45 AM
98540iA 98540iA is offline
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Thanks doru, this does make sense. Perhaps when it's time for me to work on my cooling system again I will go this route. Thanks for educating me a little more, always good to learn something new!
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  #264  
Old 08-12-2011, 11:19 AM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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98540iA, my post about the water pump was not an attack on you but perhaps I should've elaborated. Pressure doesn't drive the coolant through the system, the waterpump does. Pressure is directionless in a way, only thing it does is keep the water in the coolant from boiling and causing cavitation in the cooling jackets around the cylinders. Remove water and use a coolant with a much higher boiling point and you don't need the pressure any more. You probably already know all that.

My other point was given an identical cooling system, removing the need for high pressure should reduce the chances for failure. I agree with you that a well-maintained e39 system shouldn't have a catastrophic failure but it's the pressure that usually causes the aging plastic to give way, eventually. And of course, we all have different luck at the individual level.

If you skim the first few pages of this thread you'll see that pretty much all of the points yay and nay have been covered by a lot of thoughtful people.
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  #265  
Old 01-10-2012, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefwej View Post
Well, I decided that if I run a zero pressure cooling system, I may not have to do that next cooling system overhaul. No pressure, no exploding radiator.

So I ordered a case of Evans NPG+ waterless coolant. Not cheap at about $120, but if it saves an overhaul............... The case was 4 gallons. It took 12 liters (or about 2 3/4 gallons) to fill the system. That leaves over a gallon for top-ups, since you can't add water or any other kind of coolant with Evans.

I fully drained the system, radiator, lower hose, block drains, and ran the heater pump to get it out of there. I must have got it all because Bentley says it holds 12 liters and that is exactly what I got in it. So everything must have been out and there can't be any air trapped in there. After the NPG+ fill I changed the 2 bar cap for a 1.4 bar one.

With a boiling point of 375 degrees there should never be any pressure in the system now.
Hi mate, how did you go with this system? any issues?
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  #266  
Old 03-02-2012, 11:20 AM
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I've been running NPG in my 540 for two summers here in the desert with temps over 100 most days. Mountain runs at altitudes well over 8,000 ft. No pressure, no overheating, no issues what so ever. I did notice that the slight weeping of the valley pan gasket that stopped when the NPG went in and pressure was removed. Other than that, soft radiator hoses, and the fact that you can spin the cap off at full operating temp there has been no change. Run what you want in your radiators, but I love the stuff. No more exploding radiators for me.

BBTW: Evans now sells a reformulated version that combines the lower viscosity of the Race formula with the longer life cycle of the NPG+. It is labeled as NPG+C. If converting now, I reccomend you look for that product.
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  #267  
Old 03-02-2012, 12:43 PM
nsogiba nsogiba is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefwej View Post
I've been running NPG in my 540 for two summers here in the desert with temps over 100 most days. Mountain runs at altitudes well over 8,000 ft. No pressure, no overheating, no issues what so ever. I did notice that the slight weeping of the valley pan gasket that stopped when the NPG went in and pressure was removed. Other than that, soft radiator hoses, and the fact that you can spin the cap off at full operating temp there has been no change. Run what you want in your radiators, but I love the stuff. No more exploding radiators for me.

BBTW: Evans now sells a reformulated version that combines the lower viscosity of the Race formula with the longer life cycle of the NPG+. It is labeled as NPG+C. If converting now, I reccomend you look for that product.
thanks for all your input. i converted to NPG+ last night while doing the valley pan. i still have a leak, but that is due to an existing defective radiator. i am changing the radiator tonight and will post feedback. i am expecting no leaks with a brand new radiator and 0 pressure.

on a side note i got 3 gallons to go into the system.
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  #268  
Old 06-30-2012, 06:49 PM
dvae74123 dvae74123 is offline
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I am about to order 3 gallons of NPG+C, and I cant wait to put it in the car.
Did any of you that have done the conversion use the prep fluid?
If the engine gets properly drained, I dont see a need to use the prep fluid, but I might be wrong.
Any thoughts on the prep fluid?
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  #269  
Old 06-30-2012, 07:43 PM
franka franka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvae74123 View Post
I am about to order 3 gallons of NPG+C, and I cant wait to put it in the car.
Did any of you that have done the conversion use the prep fluid?
If the engine gets properly drained, I dont see a need to use the prep fluid, but I might be wrong.
Any thoughts on the prep fluid?
You live in FL so you don't have much fear of freezing temperatures. And rarely does in get over 102F. But.... on the other-hand,... using a prep fluid to rinse in all out is good insurance. It would be a pain if you didn't use it and it doesn't work properly and you have start all over with new fluid.

There are plenty here on this vary subject. I am sure you will hear from them.
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  #270  
Old 06-30-2012, 07:58 PM
dvae74123 dvae74123 is offline
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Frank,

I guess i must have missed the temps on their website, but why did you pout 102F?
I am planning on moving to Austin, TX sometime in November.
Is NPG not good in temps over 100F?
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  #271  
Old 06-30-2012, 09:36 PM
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Makes me wonder if there was ever a BMW engineer that bought an E39.
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  #272  
Old 07-01-2012, 08:48 AM
franka franka is offline
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Originally Posted by dvae74123 View Post
Frank,

I guess i must have missed the temps on their website, but why did you pout 102F?
I am planning on moving to Austin, TX sometime in November.
Is NPG not good in temps over 100F?

You'll never see very cold temps in FL (therfore no worry about -50 F)

NPG is meant for hot temp. Hotter than in AZ.

In summary no worry
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  #273  
Old 07-01-2012, 04:43 PM
Chisum Chisum is offline
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I did not user the prep fluid when I switched over to NPG+. I just flushed the system until clear water came out then used the aux pump to pump out as much water as I could.

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  #274  
Old 07-01-2012, 06:19 PM
dvae74123 dvae74123 is offline
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Thanks for the replies.
How did you use the aux pump? Does it turn on automatically?

Thanks again
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  #275  
Old 07-02-2012, 04:41 AM
Chisum Chisum is offline
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Set the heat all the way up then turn the key to the second setting the aux pump will turn on.

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