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E90/E92/E93 M3 (2008 - 2014)
4th generation E90 M3 sedan, E92 M3 coupe and E93 M3 convertible. The last of the naturally aspirated M3s, powered by a 4.0 liter V8 making 414hp and 295 lb-ft of torque.

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  #76  
Old 03-06-2012, 02:27 PM
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enigma enigma is offline
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Originally Posted by logicalthought View Post
I'll betcha (but haven't confirmed this) that top down, the 911 cab has more room in its storage boot (up front) than the top-down M3 has in its trunk.
I agree that there is probably less storage space in the top-down M3. However, we are comparing hardtop vs. ragtop. I would preferred to have ragtop on the M3 personally.

I frankly find the whole 911 vs. M3 a moot point. The M3 is in a difference price class, and more importantly, in a different practicality class. Obviously, the M3 is an exercise in compromise between practicality and fun, whereas the 911 is heavily tilted toward the latter.

I don't try to compare my Z4M to the M3 because they were built for different purposes, and I think the same applies here.
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  #77  
Old 03-06-2012, 02:34 PM
logicalthought logicalthought is offline
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Originally Posted by enigma View Post
I agree that there is probably less storage space in the top-down M3. However, we are comparing hardtop vs. ragtop. I would preferred to have ragtop on the M3 personally. I frankly find the whole 911 vs. M3 a moot point. The M3 is in a difference price class, and more importantly, in a different practicality class.
Actually, the new 911 cab's roof apparently has all the advantages of a hardtop with none of the (weight and bulk) disadvantages, as it's made from some kind of magnesium. Also, I'm not sure that the "practicality class" is so different now, considering the increased room in the new model. Regardless, though (and perhaps most importantly), you are (unfortunately!) VERY right about the "different price class," lol... But hey, you can't kill a guy's dreams!
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  #78  
Old 03-07-2012, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Kurt_OH View Post
I'd say BMW has the larger opportunity for improvement, given how light the P cars already were.

But I don't expect it. I expect larger, softer cars throughout the range.


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Meant profit margin. A 911 costs a lot more so Porsche can afford to spend more on weight savings. It's also not trying to be as practical as an m3
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  #79  
Old 03-08-2012, 05:52 AM
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Meant profit margin. A 911 costs a lot more so Porsche can afford to spend more on weight savings. It's also not trying to be as practical as an m3
Gotcha. Agreed.

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I just love how a 4 year old car/design is STILL the benchmark which other automakers aspire to reach. Still winning comparisons . Still very much in the conversation. Is the E9x M3 a legend? You bet your @ss it is.
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  #80  
Old 03-08-2012, 06:22 AM
allegretto allegretto is offline
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driven the "new" 911 twice now

sorry, but any increase in size of the rear seat is very very small indeed.

IMHO Porsche (err. VW) screwed the pooch with this one. I have owned many 911's. This car is notable for nothing particular, and as with the 996 the whole is less than the sum of the parts. Open the door and you'd think you were in a Caddy. MEH

Will be keeping my M3 cab. No thanks to the triple-charged 6. Looking for a fun 91-97 Turbo Porsche for a Sunday car.

yeah, magnesium roof, just like a hardtop.... Right! the most notable thing about the new 911 will be the profit it makes for VW
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  #81  
Old 03-08-2012, 10:16 AM
bmw325 bmw325 is offline
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Originally Posted by allegretto View Post
driven the "new" 911 twice now

sorry, but any increase in size of the rear seat is very very small indeed.

IMHO Porsche (err. VW) screwed the pooch with this one. I have owned many 911's. This car is notable for nothing particular, and as with the 996 the whole is less than the sum of the parts. Open the door and you'd think you were in a Caddy. MEH

Will be keeping my M3 cab. No thanks to the triple-charged 6. Looking for a fun 91-97 Turbo Porsche for a Sunday car.

yeah, magnesium roof, just like a hardtop.... Right! the most notable thing about the new 911 will be the profit it makes for VW
Isn't the m3 cab also a "fun Sunday car" though?
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  #82  
Old 03-08-2012, 12:09 PM
allegretto allegretto is offline
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Isn't the m3 cab also a "fun Sunday car" though?
sure cold be. It's my DD however
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  #83  
Old 03-08-2012, 05:12 PM
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Isn't the m3 cab also a "fun Sunday car" though?
It could be, but it's much more practical.

The rear seats can be used for adults (though not comfortable for long journeys) unlike those in the 911. With the hardtop up, it's a relatively quiet (but heavy) car.

My manual M3 Cab is also my daily commuter.
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  #84  
Old 03-10-2012, 02:09 PM
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Where is Dave Has he decided.

I have only seen and sat in the 991, the good and bad news is apparently it is easier to drive fast than the 997. And if they did increase the rear seat room it would be just to make it more tolerable for the kids, and now there are Latch points.
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  #85  
Old 03-11-2012, 06:40 AM
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I drove the 991 yesterday and the changes are quite sweeping.
The car has nice low end torque, seems fast and well footed on the highway.
For the price, I am not worried the M3 will go away at all.
I am very interested in the 991 GT3 and the turbo S. Watch out GT-R!
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  #86  
Old 03-11-2012, 08:35 AM
allegretto allegretto is offline
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Originally Posted by dalekressin View Post
I drove the 991 yesterday and the changes are quite sweeping.
The car has nice low end torque, seems fast and well footed on the highway.
For the price, I am not worried the M3 will go away at all.
I am very interested in the 991 GT3 and the turbo S. Watch out GT-R!
you bring up an interesting point. How will these cars appear in sport dress?

put a wing of size on these pups and they will appear as large as a '64 Impala. But I'll reserve true judgement until I see it.

Between the uninspired rear end, the flatter looking sides and the drone cone non-exhaust note literally piped into the interior (good grief, I never expected them to think the simulacrum of an exhaust would suffice for an enthusiast) I'm very disappointed in what P/VW thinks of the intellect and sense of style of the typical consumer.
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  #87  
Old 03-11-2012, 11:02 AM
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you bring up an interesting point. How will these cars appear in sport dress?

put a wing of size on these pups and they will appear as large as a '64 Impala. But I'll reserve true judgement until I see it.

Between the uninspired rear end, the flatter looking sides and the drone cone non-exhaust note literally piped into the interior (good grief, I never expected them to think the simulacrum of an exhaust would suffice for an enthusiast) I'm very disappointed in what P/VW thinks of the intellect and sense of style of the typical consumer.
No question there is a move to increase market share with PDK as sole option in many models. Attain market share or expire (die). It's evolution for better or worse. I can wait for the electric cars though.
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  #88  
Old 03-13-2012, 02:32 PM
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Interesting conversation…..As I previously mentioned, I grew up in a family that worshiped 911s and I drove Porsches for a number of years. I have always considered Porsche to be a psychological touchstone when evaluating sports cars. I anticipated I would be returning to Porsche last year with the purchase of a 997 Carrera PDK. Evaluating my M3 back to back, I exorcised my 997 demon. Initially I was taken aback by the M3's weight, but I found the weight to be a non-issue. The M3 is heavy but the car possesses billet like solidity and very secure predictable handling. The M3's defining V8 and sublime song reinforces the M3's "athletically robust" tactile feel.

The Porsche experience is usually defined in terms of "visceral". If visceral means less comfortable, more Spartan interior finishes, less smooth shifting PDK, less interesting exhaust note, in general, a less substantial feel, than the 997 was more visceral. I should note, when I test drove a 911 Cab v. an E93 335i MT a few years ago, I was also underwhelmed by that Porsche experience. The BMW was solid while the 911 exhibited cowl shake.

I recently viewed the new 991 -- 911 redefined for a new age. There was always a cadre within Porsche that wanted to go beyond the limits inherent in the 911 but the market's support for the 911 ruled. Porsche has transformed the 911 into a car that will have a broader appeal beyond die hard 911 enthusiasts. Perhaps the 991 represents a Faustian bargain - Porsche gains market share but loses it's soul in the process?
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  #89  
Old 03-25-2012, 09:22 AM
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I've had all them all at one point... various generations of M3, 997.1 Turbo and 997.1 C4S
My favorite is the current 997.1 C4S - best blend of power, performance and daily living.
Honestly in my opinion, you really can't compare a standard M3 to a 911 because the 911 is purposely built as a sports car whereas the M3 is a hybrid - it starts the chassis creation for the global masses, then tweaked and updated to appeal to sports car enthusiast.
Ok... if I was to compare stock for stock, my C4S will run circles around any of my M3's in overall performance (not just 0-60)
I took both cars to the race track and the dominance of the C4S shows up fairly quickly - it's able to handle the onslaught of the track much better.
The 997.1 Turbo was insanely fast with sportschrono and will run circles around both.

I drove the new 991S for 20-30 miles, amazing car. It takes daily super car expectations, to new levels.
The latest PDK is utterly butter smooth and extracts most out of the engine at any speed.
The attention to detail is the best of any car I've owned.
If money is no object, I would get a properly equipped 991 version, over many other sports car.
In a couple of years probably trade in my 997's, and move to a new 991 C4S but its probably going to be $130K+

If I was in the market for a 2011+ 997 in any flavor and with a budget of $100K+, I would be patient and get either a used 991 or 991S!
And for those who haven't driven a 997 and 991 back to back...they are both good drives, the 991 is more refined and allows you to extract more performance at the limits. With that said, I will probably never be able to extract the full potential of my 997's - it's that good.

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  #90  
Old 03-25-2012, 04:40 PM
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Well Mark, with the slightest wink to hyperbole I would agree with most of your assesmsnt.

However, after two test drives you and I diverge on the 991;

First, would challenge that you took a 991 to its "limits" on a test drive. If you did, I'm happy that I wasn't anywhere near. I find this especially difficult to swallow considering your last sentence...

Second, I'm confused as to: "...The attention to detail is the best of any car I've owned...". What did you mean? Honestly, I'm not sure of the context. Could you expand?

Finally, let's get serious. Every gen from now on of every car commonly available will be dictated first by bean counters. A prime example is the new 991. Do you think, for a NY minute, that that car is actually more expensive to produce than say, a 993 in today's dollars (Euros)? Do you think the interior (shamelessly derived from a Panamera and Cayenne) is more, or less expensive than previous designs. Cross-platform parts are just that, and decease costs considerably.

The 991 is a very competent car. NOT a supercar. No way, no how.

Sadly, the new M3 shall be the same, no doubt.

Yes, it may be faster, and the ringers may take it around the 'Ring faster (which would be important if I drove the 'Ring... fast) but I'm sure things will be lost too.
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  #91  
Old 03-25-2012, 05:07 PM
mark_12345 mark_12345 is offline
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Well Mark, with the slightest wink to hyperbole I would agree with most of your assesmsnt.

However, after two test drives you and I diverge on the 991;

First, would challenge that you took a 991 to its "limits" on a test drive. If you did, I'm happy that I wasn't anywhere near. I find this especially difficult to swallow considering your last sentence...

Second, I'm confused as to: "...The attention to detail is the best of any car I've owned...". What did you mean? Honestly, I'm not sure of the context. Could you expand?

Finally, let's get serious. Every gen from now on of every car commonly available will be dictated first by bean counters. A prime example is the new 991. Do you think, for a NY minute, that that car is actually more expensive to produce than say, a 993 in today's dollars (Euros)? Do you think the interior (shamelessly derived from a Panamera and Cayenne) is more, or less expensive than previous designs. Cross-platform parts are just that, and decease costs considerably.

The 991 is a very competent car. NOT a supercar. No way, no how.

Sadly, the new M3 shall be the same, no doubt.

Yes, it may be faster, and the ringers may take it around the 'Ring faster (which would be important if I drove the 'Ring... fast) but I'm sure things will be lost too.
No...absolutely I didn't take the 991 to its limits but I was implying based on my own test drive and from other 991 owners feedback on 6speedonline.
I took it out for 20-30 miles with the rep and push it a little but not much.
I certainly know the difference between my 997's and the 991.
The 991/991S may not be super car status - perhaps follow on iterations of the 991 will have super car status...like the GT2, Turbo S.
The current Turbo S from the factory runs 0-60 in about 2.7 sec.

Attention to detail - My own personal opinion... I like how the 997 is designed (and 991), it has a single purpose of being a great all around sports car and the interior reflects it. My 997's are the best quality cars I've personally owned. No rattles, interior / exterior bits and pieces fit and finish is excellent (knock on wood)
I had good experience with my E46 M3 as well. Not so good with E92 - transmission and interior rattles that BMW couldn't really fix.
My wife's current 2011 E91 wagon has been good so far. We love the practicality and AWD of the E91

In terms of bean counting... I believe Porsche wants their interiors to have some sort of cohesiveness across all their cars... plus the current design is really nice. Name a a car company that doesn't do this?

By the way, I'd be curious to know your definition of "super car". The easy ones that come to my mind are Veyron, McLaren, Lambo, Ferrari, Porsche GT2/GT, etc. come to my mind. When you drove the 991, what was your impression? (You did test drive it?)

Last edited by mark_12345; 03-25-2012 at 05:21 PM.
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  #92  
Old 03-25-2012, 06:49 PM
mark_12345 mark_12345 is offline
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Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Interesting conversation…....As I previously mentioned, I grew up in a family that worshiped 911s and I drove Porsches for a number of years. I have always considered Porsche to be a psychological touchstone when evaluating sports cars. I anticipated I would be returning to Porsche last year with the purchase of a 997 Carrera PDK. Evaluating my M3 back to back, I exorcised my 997 demon. Initially I was taken aback by the M3's weight, but I found the weight to be a non-issue. The M3 is heavy but the car possesses billet like solidity and very secure predictable handling. The M3's defining V8 and sublime song reinforces the M3's "athletically robust" tactile feel.

The Porsche experience is usually defined in terms of "visceral". If visceral means less comfortable, more Spartan interior finishes, less smooth shifting PDK, less interesting exhaust note, in general, a less substantial feel, than the 997 was more visceral. I should note, when I test drove a 911 Cab v. an E93 335i MT a few years ago, I was also underwhelmed by that Porsche experience. The BMW was solid while the 911 exhibited cowl shake.

I recently viewed the new 991 -- 911 redefined for a new age. There was always a cadre within Porsche that wanted to go beyond the limits inherent in the 911 but the market's support for the 911 ruled. Porsche has transformed the 911 into a car that will have a broader appeal beyond die hard 911 enthusiasts. Perhaps the 991 represents a Faustian bargain - Porsche gains market share but loses it's soul in the process?
Great insight! I lot of folks thought the M3 lost it's soul when it moved from inline 6 to V8.
I hear the next M3 might be tri-turbo. Remember several years ago when the head of the M division said M cars will never be turbo charged?
I think it's cool that the next M3 is evolving and putting in a turbo will not make the next M3 less of an M car.
It's interesting point of view that the interior of the 997 is spartan, "less substaintial feel" than a E92 - I thought just the opposite
My E92 was loaded but didn't feel no more special than my wife's E91.
I think my favorite exterior and interior M3 design is the E46 - I think it's a timeless design I wished we would've kept it!

Personally, I like that cars evolve. And each new model, the cars have better technology, use better materials, better performance and continues to be refined based on customer feedback. With the exception of Honda/Acura, every car maker I think, has done a good job of evolving their cars... sorry Honda/Acura - your biggest problem is boring exterior design! Look at the shnozzle on the TL/MDX/RDX... Good 'ole days of NSX, Legend are gone!

Last edited by mark_12345; 03-25-2012 at 06:55 PM.
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  #93  
Old 03-25-2012, 06:55 PM
logicalthought logicalthought is offline
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Sadly, the latest issue of "Car" magazine pretty much eviscerates the 991 (relatively speaking, of course, as even they acknowledge that it's still a great car), blaming it on the electric steering and the (optional) dynamic chassis control. Although the latter can be deleted, the electric steering is what it is (at least for now), and has completely turned me off to the car (as well as to the new Boxster, the steering for which has had equally bad reviews). The "alive feeling" of the steering in a 911 had always been one of its best features, and it seems that in an attempt to save a few bucks Porsche may have truly alienated its most loyal group of buyers. Unlike a $40,000- $60,000 BMW 3-series which has become equally "softened" as time progresses and yet has picked up hundreds of thousands of "mass market" buyers, a 911 is a $100,000+ car for which true enthusiasts probably make up a significant slice of its buyers. I doubt that by deadening the steering Porsche will pick up a single "conquest sale" from, say, a Mercedes SL or Jaguar XK, and yet it may very well LOSE its most important core group of buyers. Now we'll just have to see if those engineers in Weissach can refine that new steering mechanism enough to put some real life back into it, or if they instead decide to go back to the hydraulic system. Meanwhile, I guess I may be keeping my M3 a lot longer than I thought I would, as that new 911 no longer seems worth its 60% price premium to me.
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Old 03-25-2012, 07:01 PM
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Sadly, the latest issue of "Car" magazine pretty much eviscerates the 991 (relatively speaking, of course, as even they acknowledge that it's still a great car), blaming it on the electric steering and the (optional) dynamic chassis control. Although the latter can be deleted, the electric steering is what it is (at least for now), and has completely turned me off to the car (as well as to the new Boxster, the steering for which has had equally bad reviews). The "alive feeling" of the steering in a 911 had always been one of its best features, and it seems that in an attempt to save a few bucks Porsche may have truly alienated its most loyal group of buyers. Unlike a $40,000- $60,000 BMW 3-series which has become equally "softened" as time progresses and yet has picked up hundreds of thousands of "mass market" buyers, a 911 is a $100,000+ car for which true enthusiasts probably make up a significant slice of its buyers. I doubt that by deadening the steering Porsche will pick up a single "conquest sale" from, say, a Mercedes SL or Jaguar XK, and yet it may very well LOSE its most important core group of buyers. Now we'll just have to see if those engineers in Weissach can refine that new steering mechanism enough to put some real life back into it, or if they instead decide to go back to the hydraulic system. Meanwhile, I guess I may be keeping my M3 a lot longer than I thought I would, as that new 911 no longer seems worth its 60% price premium to me.
Yeah, I agree to some extent. When I drove the 991, it didn't feel any less than my 997's. In fact, I thought the 991 steering was quite good. I think 98% of the drivers out there including myself , will never really know the difference. I think the difference can only probably really felt on track or when the car is taking to it's limits. One thing is for sure, the new 991 is much more quieter and refine than my 997's. But I love my 997 (see attachment)

I a lot of new 991 owners including those who track their cars, say the 991 is just as good...check it out 6speedonline.com.

Hang in there, I hear the next M3 should be good...lighter, turbo, etc

I'm curious, if you were in charge of designing the next M3 and 911, what would you have done?
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  #95  
Old 03-25-2012, 07:10 PM
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I a lot of new 991 owners including those who track their cars, say the 991 is just as good...check it out 6speedonline.com. Hang in there, I hear the next M3 should be good...lighter, turbo, etc :thumb up:
I'm sure-- thanks to all the electronic aids-- that the 991 is considerably faster around the track than the 997, but I'm equally sure that it's lost a great deal of visceral thrill. At that point (and this was "Car" magazine's conclusion, too) one may as well get the Nissan GT-R, which is equally over-gizmo'd and way faster (and cheaper) than the 991. Yes, the Porsche has a huge weight advantage over the Nissan, but if one can no longer feel that via the lightness in the steering then it becomes significantly less important. Now, if only that GT-R came in a convertible...

As for the next M3, I'll be shocked if it's lightened by any more than 50 pounds or so, which means it will still be quite heavy.

Last edited by logicalthought; 03-25-2012 at 07:12 PM.
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  #96  
Old 03-26-2012, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by logicalthought View Post
Sadly, the latest issue of "Car" magazine pretty much eviscerates the 991 (relatively speaking, of course, as even they acknowledge that it's still a great car), blaming it on the electric steering and the (optional) dynamic chassis control. Although the latter can be deleted, the electric steering is what it is (at least for now), and has completely turned me off to the car (as well as to the new Boxster, the steering for which has had equally bad reviews).
Maybe I am missing something but the new Boxster reviews I have read/seen have been very glowing, yes the steering may be a weak point but...

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Old 03-26-2012, 05:51 PM
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Maybe I am missing something but the new Boxster reviews I have read/seen have been very glowing, yes the steering may be a weak point but...
Here's one that stood out in mind; read the sixth from last and fifth from last paragraphs:
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...e/viewall.html

I know that his conclusion almost seems to contradict those paragraphs, but it's been my experience that the #1 priority of car magazines is not to offend advertisers, so for him to write what he did in those two paragraphs strikes me as pretty significant.

I guess one problem is that it's all relative; i.e., as dead as the new Boxster's (or 991's) steering may be, it's still probably better than anything you'd get for under $100,000 except maybe on a Lotus.
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  #98  
Old 04-01-2012, 01:05 AM
allegretto allegretto is offline
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Mark, yes drove the 991 twice. Felt the same. I don't really damn the steering separately. It's "OK". It's numb though

As far as an Elise vs. anything.... different feel entirely due to the unique physical characteristics (mass and roll centers) of the car. Nothing is like an Elise.
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  #99  
Old 04-13-2012, 01:12 PM
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Capobranco Capobranco is online now
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I recently got to spend a little time with a 991 Carrera PDK.

The 991 from all outward appearances is a 911, but the stretched wheelbase and significantly wider track, have endowed the 991 with the comfort of a luxury GT. The interior finishes have been significantly upgraded. I am 6"3" and the 991 has room to spare. The ride remains firm but is less punishing. I could not really push the car, but the car gave me the impression it was fast. One of the defining characteristics of past 911s was their braille-like steering feedback - the 991 does damp out some of the "graininess" of prior 911s. I agree with many that the 991 maybe slightly less "visceral" but I view it as a more refined car generally.

Even among Porsche faithful, the BMW M3 is often regarded as a better daily driver, but is deemed the lesser sports car. (After test driving a 997 and my M3 back to back, I preferred the M3 as both daily driver and as the more engaging sports/GT). I notice on Porsche Forums that many are bemoaning the 991. Most complain about its less visceral, less challenging, driving experience, and especially the steering. In general, IMO the 991 is less "raw" but remains an engaging car, and is a more viable daily driver than the 997.

The 991 looks like a 911 but I’m not sure it really is a “911”. It seems like it has morphed into its own unique thing. In a weird way the 991 seems more BMWish. I prefer the real deal.
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  #100  
Old 04-13-2012, 01:28 PM
logicalthought logicalthought is offline
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>>In a weird way the 991 seems more BMWish. I prefer the real deal.<<

The first part of this is (sadly) undoubtedly true, but your preference for "the real deal" when "the real deal" underperforms the 991 in every metric except "rear legroom" doesn't make sense to me (assuming that we're leaving "price" out of the equation, which I admit is a huge assumption).
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