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E36/7 Z3 (1996-2002)
E36/7 Z3 Roadster, Z3 coupe, Z3 M Roadster and Z3 M Coupe talk with our gurus here.

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  #26  
Old 04-10-2012, 04:00 PM
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mark_m5 mark_m5 is offline
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My folks have 2 Jaguars. They used to have 3, but mom finally got my dad to sell one. They joke about the Lucas Electronics; the running joke is "Lucas is the Prince of Darkness"

So will the Z3 become a classic? I think it already is, but mainly because of the classic lines. What competition does it have? Can any of these cars boast the combination of styling, technology, and reliability, as well as handling and performance that can be found in the Z3? Sure - the Z8 can. For 5-10 times the price.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin-Healey_3000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Cobra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_Spider
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_E-Type
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_XK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_MX-5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_Spitfire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_TR6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Z8_(E52)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_Daytona
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvette (C1)
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  #27  
Old 04-10-2012, 04:10 PM
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So will the Z3 become a classic? I think it already is, but mainly because of the classic lines. What competition does it have?
Er, the same competition it had when new? The Porsche Boxster (986) and Mercedes-Benz SLK, with the Honda S2000 and Mazda Miata lower on the scale.

There's "classic" (just old) and there's "collectible" (appreciating in value, typically exceeding original MSRP). I don't see the Z3 ever going up like that.
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  #28  
Old 04-10-2012, 07:09 PM
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mark_m5 mark_m5 is offline
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Originally Posted by epbrown View Post
Er, the same competition it had when new? The Porsche Boxster (986) and Mercedes-Benz SLK, with the Honda S2000 and Mazda Miata lower on the scale.

There's "classic" (just old) and there's "collectible" (appreciating in value, typically exceeding original MSRP). I don't see the Z3 ever going up like that.
If you're gonna put Boxter on the list, then you'd have to add convertible VW Beetle, and I don't think we want to go there. It's not a front engine roadster, so it's not in the game.

Merc is just a Chrysler with a different badge. Yuck. Honda S2000 - definitely in the running.

It's interesting that you define "Classic" the way you do. I thought it meant "A work of the highest order, traditional; serving as a standard of excellence; characterized by simple lines; historically memorable; archetypal; quinessential."

Awards for the Z3:

The BMW Z3 won the "Super Reggie" award for the best promotional marketing campaign of 1995. The campaign was co-sponsored by the United Artist unit of Credit Lyonnais and by BMW of North America. Efforts included James Bond Edition Z3's sold through the Neiman Marcus catalogue.
The BMW Z3 2.8 made Editor's Most Wanted Vehicle for 1999 Edmunds.com
The M Coupe/M Roadster made Car and Driver magazine's Ten Best list for 1999.
The 2000 BMW 2.3 made "The Best Overall Value of the Year" - "Base Sport" category winner by Intellichoice
AUTOMOBILE Magazine awarded the BMW M coupe its 1999 Design of the Year.
The BMW Z3 M Coupé became Top Gear's "Driver's Car of the Year" in 2000.
The 2002 BMW Z3 M Coupe became Top Gear Car of the Year

The only problem with insisting that a model "go up in value" as it ages in order to qualify as "classic" is that there's a supply/demand equation involved. 300,000 standard Z3s were built; so they are by no means "rare". For them to go up in value significantly, 290,000 of them would have to go to a scrap yard. There were only 15000 Z3 M Roadsters made, so there's a better chance they'll become collectible as they dwindle in number.

I'm hoping mine goes up in value. But even if it doesn't, I still consider it a classic.
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  #29  
Old 04-10-2012, 08:32 PM
Harry2002z3m Harry2002z3m is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dans View Post
Just got through watching Barret Jackson and thought will the Z3 ever be a sought after car. The more I drive it and look at it I think it will. It is in a class of its own Call me crazy.
I think you can compare the future the Z3 to present BMW 2002 1967-1976, after reaching it's low point where they were not worth fixing and guys just parked them, it is now really hard to find a original unmolested car. A truly restored carb 2002's are $10 to 13 grand and the Tii fuel injected 15 to 30 grand and the rare turbo 40 to 60 grand. They built many more 2002"s than Z3's
I have a 2000 M roadster (Z3m) , I think in the future 1.9 ,2.5,2.8 and 3.0 Z3 will follow the carb 2002,s as a cult car and following. The M cars will fall somewhere between the Tii and turbo as a cult car with a following , if you want a investment buy a Z8 and keep it in dry storage it will be better than money in the bank. I bought my 2000 Z3m roadster about 2 years ago it is a beast and I love it and it was crazy cheap 10 grand all original 112,00 mi, replace everything that was normal wear and have about 14 grand in it. I think the m cars have hit bottom as far as cost and have started to increasing , only about 9000 were made world wide so they a a bit rare ,buy one now, bring it back to factory spec. , you will have a very fast car that handles and stops to match and will hold it,s value into the future for less than a used Prius

Harry
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  #30  
Old 04-11-2012, 07:03 AM
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The point was, WHY would you want to take the time to rebuild a switch, when a good switch rarely fails and then only costs a few bucks
to replace.
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  #31  
Old 04-11-2012, 10:35 AM
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...because switches tend to fail in locations where replacements are not readily available for 50 year old British cars!
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  #32  
Old 04-11-2012, 11:05 AM
chickdr chickdr is offline
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Originally Posted by mark_m5 View Post
If you're gonna put Boxster on the list, then you'd have to add convertible VW Beetle, and I don't think we want to go there. It's not a front engine roadster, so it's not in the game.

Merc is just a Chrysler with a different badge. Yuck.
Two comments:

The Boxster is most certainly a Z3 competitor. How could it not be? Similar price, design and demographics. The engine being in the middle makes no difference at all. Both are RWD sportscars. The VW Beetle Cabrio is a FWD car(and not a roadster as it has back seats) and is not even remotely similar to either the Z3, or Boxster. The MX-5, yes. The Skystice, yes. The 350z roadster, yes. The S2K, yes. The MR-S, yes.

The SLK was not a rebadged Chrysler, the Crossfire was a rebadged SLK. In any event BOTH are Z3 competitors(being 2 seat RWD roadsters).

Last edited by chickdr; 04-11-2012 at 11:06 AM.
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  #33  
Old 04-11-2012, 11:09 AM
crappyattitude1 crappyattitude1 is offline
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  #34  
Old 04-11-2012, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_m5 View Post
The only problem with insisting that a model "go up in value" as it ages in order to qualify as "classic" is that there's a supply/demand equation involved. 300,000 standard Z3s were built; so they are by no means "rare". For them to go up in value significantly, 290,000 of them would have to go to a scrap yard. There were only 15000 Z3 M Roadsters made, so there's a better chance they'll become collectible as they dwindle in number.
Depends on how you define classic. Typically, a classic is a car over 20 or 25 years old. A collectible is a car that's appreciating in value, typically exceeding its original purchase price. Simply by some of them surviving, the Z3 will be a classic. Of the range, only the M Coupes seem to have a shot at being collectible.

As far as the Boxster not being a competitor - someone already addressed the salient points. I'd ask you to take the issue up with BMW - the company marketing materials for the Z3 and Z4 make frequent reference to the Boxster, SLK and TT as their competition and offer talking points for swaying customers from each.
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  #35  
Old 04-12-2012, 05:09 AM
dougmcintyre dougmcintyre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epbrown View Post
Depends on how you define classic. Typically, a classic is a car over 20 or 25 years old. A collectible is a car that's appreciating in value, typically exceeding its original purchase price. Simply by some of them surviving, the Z3 will be a classic. Of the range, only the M Coupes seem to have a shot at being collectible.
That's why I like the term cult car. "Classic" doesn't capture the intensity of the owners' emotional involvement.
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  #36  
Old 04-12-2012, 05:56 PM
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That's why I like the term cult car. "Classic" doesn't capture the intensity of the owners' emotional involvement.
I'd go with that. In my experience with cult classics, the defining metric is that many members have multiple examples of said car - not just parts cars but running cars they switched among;from what I've seen here that would apply.
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  #37  
Old 04-13-2012, 01:17 PM
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I also love the lines and the big hood over the Z4 that's why we bought it. Actually I convinced the wife she wanted a mini pooper. She is also glad I talked her out of it. They are everywhere and can't compare I think.
Careful on the mini "pooper" comment. I have a 2012 MINI Cooper and it's the best handling, fun to drive FWD car I've ever driven, not to mention the 35+ MPG I regularly achieve with it!

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  #38  
Old 04-14-2012, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by epbrown View Post
I'd go with that. In my experience with cult classics, the defining metric is that many members have multiple examples of said car - not just parts cars but running cars they switched among;from what I've seen here that would apply.
^This.
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  #39  
Old 04-15-2012, 05:56 PM
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How many Z3's were made anyway? I know I have the only Z4M coupe in a 90 mile radius. I could throw a rock up in the air here and it has a good chance of hitting a Z3. If rarity has any impact on classic or collectable, I cant see the Z3 making it. The Z3M? Different story.
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  #40  
Old 04-15-2012, 07:51 PM
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i think someone already opined that rarity makes no difference regarding classic. in fact, it may be just the opposite because a rare car is seldom seen and a classic needs to stimulate the imagination of a large number of people. the z3 roadster fits that bill.

as far a collectibility, rarity makes a difference in value, the top of the line model usually bringing the highest price.
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  #41  
Old 04-17-2012, 02:38 PM
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How many Z3's were made anyway? I know I have the only Z4M coupe in a 90 mile radius. I could throw a rock up in the air here and it has a good chance of hitting a Z3. If rarity has any impact on classic or collectable, I cant see the Z3 making it. The Z3M? Different story.
Location is important. I know that having a Z3M means I have a relatively rare car. That said, I know that there are 4-5 Z3M's in this area (roughly a population of 350K in a 1 hour driving radius - 120miles). One of these vehicles is a near replica of mine and is owned by a good friend of mine who purchased it rather than a Porsche as he felt it drove better. At one time locally there were 6, but 1 (a predicessor near duplicate of mine being a '98) moved to San Diego and then Houston. I believe that a red '01 has also since moved on.

Based on personal experience, I would not base a notation of rarety soley upon local environment.
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  #42  
Old 04-17-2012, 04:10 PM
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mark_m5 mark_m5 is offline
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How many Z3's were made anyway? I know I have the only Z4M coupe in a 90 mile radius. I could throw a rock up in the air here and it has a good chance of hitting a Z3. If rarity has any impact on classic or collectable, I cant see the Z3 making it. The Z3M? Different story.
Wikipedia says:
300,000 standard Z3s made
15,000 Z3 M Roadsters made
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  #43  
Old 04-17-2012, 11:49 PM
tohbi tohbi is offline
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Wikipedia says:
300,000 standard Z3s made
15,000 Z3 M Roadsters made
now there's an interesting number. anyone notice how few m roadsters were built compared to the standard z3, yet how high the number of posts are about repairing the m?
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  #44  
Old 04-18-2012, 06:34 AM
wrench13 wrench13 is offline
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Either the M's in being more complex need more massaging to keep them in top shape or
The M motors were pretty much experiments, failed , on the part of BMW or
M owners, being in possesion of the more collectable cars, are obsessive in fixing the ordinary issues that come up in any 12 yr old car.

I tend to think the third.
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  #45  
Old 04-18-2012, 10:06 AM
tohbi tohbi is offline
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Originally Posted by wrench13 View Post
Either the M's in being more complex need more massaging to keep them in top shape or
The M motors were pretty much experiments, failed , on the part of BMW or
M owners, being in possesion of the more collectable cars, are obsessive in fixing the ordinary issues that come up in any 12 yr old car.

I tend to think the third.
probably both. horsepower costs. racers talk about engine size in cubic dollars. putting 300+ hp in a chassis that flexs with less than 200 is certainly going to cause issues.

a major reason i chose my 97 over a 2000 m model were maintenance issues. for the track, horsepower is king but, for the street, there are other considerations.
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  #46  
Old 04-18-2012, 02:07 PM
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IMO, it is that M owners are more likely to be car people than non-M owners.

And car people work on their cars, join forums to talk about cars, and such things. Non-car people do not. They put in gas and drive. If something goes wrong, they take it to a shop and pay the bill. They do not know, care or understand what went wrong and what got fixed. If the cost to repair is too high, they get rid of the car and get another one. To them, a car is a commodity, like a loaf of bread.
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  #47  
Old 04-18-2012, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by pinecone View Post
imo, it is that m owners are more likely to be car people than non-m owners.

And car people work on their cars, join forums to talk about cars, and such things. Non-car people do not. They put in gas and drive. If something goes wrong, they take it to a shop and pay the bill. They do not know, care or understand what went wrong and what got fixed. If the cost to repair is too high, they get rid of the car and get another one. To them, a car is a commodity, like a loaf of bread.
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  #48  
Old 04-18-2012, 04:09 PM
tohbi tohbi is offline
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so, the m model isn't less dependable? not disputing anyone's opinion [at least not yet], this discussion is taking an interesting direction.

i wonder how many m owners subscribe to the list vs how many z3 owners? that may be a better indication of so many maintenance issue posts with the m than the 20 times more z3 models sold
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  #49  
Old 04-18-2012, 05:58 PM
dadmog dadmog is offline
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I've had a '98 M Roadster for 12 years. I haven't had any issues that I would consider 'M-specific' ; things like dead batteries, water pumps, an O2 sensor, and a door lock actuator are pretty much the same in all Z3's (OK, water pumps are a 6-cylinder issue)
That said, the S54 engined M cars may be slightly more prone to issues than the S52 given the higher internal stresses of 100 bhp/liter, and some number of them had main bearing issues.
It could be that we see more 'M" repair issues cited because they tend to be tracked more and/or driven harder, which does tend to chew up things a lot faster.
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  #50  
Old 04-20-2012, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_m5 View Post
Wikipedia says:
300,000 standard Z3s made
15,000 Z3 M Roadsters made
Quote:
Originally Posted by tohbi View Post
now there's an interesting number. anyone notice how few m roadsters were built compared to the standard z3, yet how high the number of posts are about repairing the m?
You'd see similar on an E46 forum between regular 3-series owners and M3 owners. The nature of the beast. Someone was recently commenting on a Z4 forum about how the Ms generate much more discussion than the base Z4s.
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