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  #26  
Old 03-16-2012, 01:04 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
They deleted MY words. The words don't belong to hatesand. They are in my email box, they are on google, they are public record.

I suppose the OP could take down his comments, and leave others- but mods didn't have the energy to edit- understandable. But if you read the thread, hatesand had the opportunity to back down with his rhetoric at MULTIPLE times, and did not. This was not a 'i posted out of line' issue, it was "I used Bimmerfest and the members to get what I wanted, now would you help me pay the piper by censoring everyone".

BF so far has said "Yes, we let BMW censor is a member wants it". Pragmatic, but IMO shortsighted.

You fail to understand that my issues is at a much higher plane than your whiny "the owners says" level. I am engaging the moderators at a policy level, which you refuse to discuss. You'd rather spare with me personally as opposed to participate in a community discussion.

I see this has been moved to obscurity, maybe a moderator will comment on why they allow BMW to coerce them into censorship.

It is conversations like these that make differences. Something the "its the rules" crowd, of which you are a member. cannot fathom. Speaking of which, what is in it for you? What are you trying to achieve from your first little post, to the follow-ups, to the report and now tracking this...WHY ARE YOU SO INTERESTED IN ME AND THIS TOPIC?

I didn't expect the thread to last, I don't expect a reversal- the discussion is what mattered.

A
You could care less about the discussion. Otherwise you wouldn't have written that I was arguing for the sake of arguing. I was engaging you in discussion. You just didn't like what I had to say. How dare someone challenge the mighty Ard! Your posts to me reeked of condescension. Someone interested in discussion doesn't engage in the behavior you've exhibited.

The ironic thing being I agree with a lot of what you've written. But I accept the forum owner has the right to remove content for whatever reason they choose to do so. Regardless if I agree with it or not. And I accept it's not my obligation to do an end run around their actions because I disagree with them.

Last edited by sunny5280; 03-16-2012 at 01:07 PM.
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  #27  
Old 03-16-2012, 01:30 PM
PropellerHead PropellerHead is offline
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1. Emission and I are in contact and in support of one another's actions. I would not have moved the second thread if he hadn't said why he moved the first.

2. Then stop suggesting that the job of moderation is done without the full value of the context. When you suggest you know better of a situation than you do, you will find yourself in conflict.

3. Emission moved the original thread and said why he did before he moved it. That is all the communication needed to know that the topic will not last if rehashed. I support his action and the reasons for it. You don't. I'm sorry you feel that way. Perhaps Emission is the best person to answer (again) why he moved the thread in the first place.

4. The OP started a thread. He wanted the thread removed. Yes. Emission followed his wishes. By the way, once you submitted the words to Bimmerfest, they were no longer yours. They were subject to the same actions as the OP. Why they were removed is not as important as the fact that they were and that Bimmerfest was within its rights- and Emission within reason- to do so.

5. I am afraid that I just don't see the connection between you, Bimmerfest and BMW WRT Emission removing this thread. Again: I'm not here to judge why the OP wanted the thread moved and no member is either. Once he asked for it to be removed and Emission complied, I simply followed through on his wishes and Emission's original actions. Again, we're in contact- (why wouldn't we be?) and we understand what's going on.

As for keeping it impersonal, might I once again suggest that you refrain from allowing the negative perception-as-fact of how moderation at Bimmerfest works. You insult the efforts of good people like Emission and myself and you go so far as to include the other very hard working moderators here. You suggest the ways that it would have, and should have been handled. Then, after insulting the very people who have been so helpful to the content within these forums, you expect not to be invited to discuss the X5 topic where you can moderate and ensure its sustainability? What more might you suggest we offer? The point is that the content of the OP's issue is no longer one for which Bimmerfest will provide a medium.

Once again, I cannot stress enough that the 'discussion' to which I refer is not Emission's moderation or my support of it, but of the original X5 post. The person who submitted the topic simply does not want it on Bimmerfest. They contacted Emission and he moved it after he posted why. I am sure Emission will respect that wish once again if the subject connected to his experience is submitted again. Once again, I stand in full support of his actions.


Edit:
----------------------
I don't know why Emission didn't reply back to you within the time that you thought was appropriate. I don't think that the absence of communication equates to the approval of your action to revive the thread. He had already said and you had already acknowledged why he removed the original thread. Why would you assume that it's ok to make the thread again, completely disregarding Emission's courtesy to the OP? I can't say that I would have found the need to write again explaining why I'd done something I'd already explained. Why should Emission explain himself twice?

Last edited by PropellerHead; 03-16-2012 at 01:55 PM.
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  #28  
Old 03-16-2012, 02:05 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
Glad this is now in 'feedback' so I will not get a warning or ban for being OT... Are we all OK with having a discussion about moderating in the form for Site Feedback??? Without getting personal, OK? Don't tell me to go back to where I moderate when I am bringing up valid points about how a site can (maybe should) make decisions

1. I know what a supermoderator is, global mod, admin, etc, etc. The problem is that while you have the POWER to mod, you cannot read all the threads as they are being discussed. I've seen how you guys mod here- a 'report' gets kneejerk reactions. It's not perfect anywhere, we know that- just a reality. Were you reading the thread in question as it developed? Have you discussed this with Emissions NOW? I would bet money the answer to both is no.

2. I know what soft delete is. ("you profess to know so much about."????No need to be rude to me personally- lets discuss the topic at hand.)

3. You note I bolded your comment above about discussion. Zero discussion, I tried. I would have been HAPPY to have a substantive discussion in PMs with you, Emission, other mods.... but no...so we have it here in public, where you are forced to defend the actions and not engage on point.

4. You (Emissions at first and then you with the edit/ lock/ delete) deleted MY posts, and others posts along with the OPs. Are you now saying, effectively, that the OP 'owns' the remainder of the thread??? And deleting a thread is "simply" following the OPs wishes?

5. I commend you on keeping confidential information private- had the OP not been coerced by BMW through a financial arrangement, this would be less of an issue- but I personally chafe at the idea that BMW can censor my words- indirectly for sure, but with Bimmerfest's blessing.

Happy to discuss the role of moderating, content, OPs' ownership of public posts, etc... bimmerfests responsibility to ALL members, not just posters- but readers who trust this is a forum for the free discussion of ideas.

But lets not make it personal, OK?
A
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
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  #29  
Old 03-16-2012, 02:21 PM
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Emission Emission is offline
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I just read the whole thread on my iPad... But I am not going to reply as I type faster on a real keyboard. I'll be in front of my computer in 45 minutes.

- Mike
__________________
I am fortunate to have unique press cars delivered weekly, but I own:

'13 Audi Q5 2.0T Quattro 8AT
'86 Porsche 911 Turbo 4MT


Gone, but never forgotten... my E70 X5 35d, E90 335i, E46 330i, E36 328i, E70 X5 3.0si, E53 X5 3.0i.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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  #30  
Old 03-16-2012, 02:35 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emission View Post
I just read the whole thread on my iPad... But I am not going to reply as I type faster on a real keyboard. I'll be in front of my computer in 45 minutes.
The new iPad?
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  #31  
Old 03-16-2012, 02:49 PM
weasel_atty weasel_atty is offline
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Am I the only one that finds it amusing that the entire thread is readily available? It is the first hit if one googles "x5d electrical issues." Whatever the reason the OP wants it gone, the internet is forever.
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  #32  
Old 03-16-2012, 03:06 PM
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Emission Emission is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
The new iPad?
No. It is the old 1st-Gen.

- Mike
__________________
I am fortunate to have unique press cars delivered weekly, but I own:

'13 Audi Q5 2.0T Quattro 8AT
'86 Porsche 911 Turbo 4MT


Gone, but never forgotten... my E70 X5 35d, E90 335i, E46 330i, E36 328i, E70 X5 3.0si, E53 X5 3.0i.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Read my work as West Coast Editor for Autoblog!
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  #33  
Old 03-16-2012, 03:22 PM
PropellerHead PropellerHead is offline
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If any concerned member would like to follow up directly with me on my support of Emission's moderation via PM, please feel free to do so. I've offered all I am able.
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  #34  
Old 03-16-2012, 03:25 PM
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Emission Emission is offline
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Okay, let me clarify a few things here.

* I have a job (aka a real life) outside Bimmerfest. Whether this comes as a shock to some, I don't come here daily. In fact, when I am on the road I may not visit the Fest for up to a week. (I am out of town Sun-Mon and Wed-Thur of next week, so don't look for me.) Of course, if there is a "reported post" I usually jump in and shoot off a few rounds of my 'moderator power' and clean up the town. That said, I don't read my PMs all the time (even though I do get e-mail notification). I'd rather spend my valuable time answering a reply to Porsche, Chevrolet, Fisker, etc... as that is how I pay my mortgage.

* I am an unpaid volunteer around here. My family, my friends and my career come first. Sorry Bimmerfest.

* I am a passive moderator. I don't actively read threads looking for infractions or issues. Report a post, or send me a PM (assuming I read it ) and I will take a look.

* I respect each and every member around here equally, but I give special preferential treatment to the "OP" on a thread. If they are being attacked, I protect them the most. If they ask for a thread to be removed, I remove it.

* With regards to the thread in question, the OP asked me to remove the post after I suggested it. Yes, I asked the OP if they wanted the post removed. Why? Because I have been around here for more than a decade and I have seen countless posts removed because the OP gets into 'discussions' with BMWNA re an issue. I don't consider it censorship or unusual. It is done all the time. If someone other than the OP had made that request, it would likely have been denied. Again, I give special treatment to an OP.

* This is Bimmerfest. We all drink gallons of BMW Kool-Aid, so we will tend to protect our brand. Whether intentional or not, we do it. Removing the post in question was not an attempt to protect the brand. (For the record, I have never intentionally removed a post to make BMW look good.)

* Everything posted on the Internet is there forever. I remove posts knowing full well they are still indexed somewhere else. I do what I can to help the OP and then move on.

* I am not the world's greatest moderator. Not even close.

- Mike
__________________
I am fortunate to have unique press cars delivered weekly, but I own:

'13 Audi Q5 2.0T Quattro 8AT
'86 Porsche 911 Turbo 4MT


Gone, but never forgotten... my E70 X5 35d, E90 335i, E46 330i, E36 328i, E70 X5 3.0si, E53 X5 3.0i.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Read my work as West Coast Editor for Autoblog!

Last edited by Emission; 03-16-2012 at 03:32 PM.
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  #35  
Old 03-16-2012, 03:26 PM
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Emission Emission is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PropellerHead View Post
If any concerned member would like to follow up directly with me on my support of Emission's moderation via PM, please feel free to do so. I've offered all I am able.
Thanks, but no worries as I don't feel like I am being attacked. Honestly.

This is good we are having this discussion in an open forum.

- Mike
__________________
I am fortunate to have unique press cars delivered weekly, but I own:

'13 Audi Q5 2.0T Quattro 8AT
'86 Porsche 911 Turbo 4MT


Gone, but never forgotten... my E70 X5 35d, E90 335i, E46 330i, E36 328i, E70 X5 3.0si, E53 X5 3.0i.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Read my work as West Coast Editor for Autoblog!
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  #36  
Old 03-16-2012, 11:58 PM
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Emission Emission is offline
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Location: North of Los Angeles, CA
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Mein Auto: Schnelle Autos
Wow. My post put out all the fires?

- Mike
__________________
I am fortunate to have unique press cars delivered weekly, but I own:

'13 Audi Q5 2.0T Quattro 8AT
'86 Porsche 911 Turbo 4MT


Gone, but never forgotten... my E70 X5 35d, E90 335i, E46 330i, E36 328i, E70 X5 3.0si, E53 X5 3.0i.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Read my work as West Coast Editor for Autoblog!
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  #37  
Old 03-17-2012, 03:34 PM
ard ard is offline
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Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
I was talking to Propellerhead...

YOU are a way different story.
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  #38  
Old 03-17-2012, 03:50 PM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emission View Post
Okay, let me clarify a few things here.

* I have a job (aka a real life) outside Bimmerfest. Whether this comes as a shock to some, I don't come here daily. In fact, when I am on the road I may not visit the Fest for up to a week. (I am out of town Sun-Mon and Wed-Thur of next week, so don't look for me.) Of course, if there is a "reported post" I usually jump in and shoot off a few rounds of my 'moderator power' and clean up the town. That said, I don't read my PMs all the time (even though I do get e-mail notification). I'd rather spend my valuable time answering a reply to Porsche, Chevrolet, Fisker, etc... as that is how I pay my mortgage.

* I am an unpaid volunteer around here. My family, my friends and my career come first. Sorry Bimmerfest.

* I am a passive moderator. I don't actively read threads looking for infractions or issues. Report a post, or send me a PM (assuming I read it ) and I will take a look.

* I respect each and every member around here equally, but I give special preferential treatment to the "OP" on a thread. If they are being attacked, I protect them the most. If they ask for a thread to be removed, I remove it.

* With regards to the thread in question, the OP asked me to remove the post after I suggested it. Yes, I asked the OP if they wanted the post removed. Why? Because I have been around here for more than a decade and I have seen countless posts removed because the OP gets into 'discussions' with BMWNA re an issue. I don't consider it censorship or unusual. It is done all the time. If someone other than the OP had made that request, it would likely have been denied. Again, I give special treatment to an OP.

* This is Bimmerfest. We all drink gallons of BMW Kool-Aid, so we will tend to protect our brand. Whether intentional or not, we do it. Removing the post in question was not an attempt to protect the brand. (For the record, I have never intentionally removed a post to make BMW look good.)

* Everything posted on the Internet is there forever. I remove posts knowing full well they are still indexed somewhere else. I do what I can to help the OP and then move on.

* I am not the world's greatest moderator. Not even close.

- Mike
Thanks Mike-

Would have been much easier if we did this by PM a few days ago... I know, I know- real life, busy, etc. I frankly thought I'd given it a LONG time before acting. I suppose it was in 'internet time' but not in real time.

I will leave you mods with a thought: if an OP needs something taken down, I look at WHY. Indeed, I consider that I moderate for ONE and for ALL THE REST with almost every decision....

- Someone contacts me about an old post saying he had an accident, or something that might indicate to a future buyer something about the car today, I refuse. They do not get to re-write history.

- An OP has a telephone number in a thread? Yes, I edit it.

- An OP insulted someone and now regrets it, I'll consider it.

- I almost never will remove a thread with other members following comments- an old for sale, etc- just edit out personal info, lock it. The comments back and forth are part of the record. They belong to the community.

- Is BMW coercing the owner to remove true comments? nope. The OP may have a legal obligation, but me, and my board, don't.

Different philosophy from BF, fine- worthy of discussion and consideration? I'd think so. The kind of thing that is a topic in the Admin section elsewhere- everyone should be thinking about this to create a unified moderator front.

Food for thought....

Again, anyone need the original thread PM me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by PropellerHead View Post
If any concerned member would like to follow up directly with me on my support of Emission's moderation via PM, please feel free to do so. I've offered all I am able.

Well, put it like that, no.

I am more that happy to have a healthy conversation with Mike (in PM) as he is someone I respect. While I disagree with the actions in the thread, he has earned the right in my book.
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Last edited by ard; 03-17-2012 at 03:53 PM.
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  #39  
Old 03-17-2012, 03:55 PM
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Emission Emission is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
Thanks Mike-

Would have been much easier if we did this by PM a few days ago... I know, I know- real life, busy, etc. I frankly thought I'd given it a LONG time before acting. I suppose it was in 'internet time' but not in real time.

I will leave you mods with a thought: if an OP needs something taken down, I look at WHY. Indeed, I consider that I moderate for ONE and for ALL THE REST with almost every decision....

- Someone contacts me about an old post saying he had an accident, or something that might indicate to a future buyer something about the car today, I refuse. They do not get to re-write history.

- An OP has a telephone number in a thread? Yes, I edit it.

- An OP insulted someone and now regrets it, I'll consider it.

- I almost never will remove a thread with other members following comments- an old for sale, etc- just edit out personal info, lock it. The comments back and forth are part of the record. They belong to the community.

- Is BMW coercing the owner to remove true comments? nope. The OP may have a legal obligation, but me, and my board, don't.

Different philosophy from BF, fine- worthy of discussion and consideration? I'd think so. The kind of thing that is a topic in the Admin section elsewhere- everyone should be thinking about this to create a unified moderator front.

Food for thought....

Again, anyone need the original thread PM me.






Well, put it like that, no.

I am more that happy to have a healthy conversation with Mike (in PM) as he is someone I respect. While I disagree with the actions in the thread, he has earned the right in my book.
You know, in the future I will take a second look at requests to remove posts. I honestly never thought much about it, but you make very good points.

This has been very educational, and I thank you for your very frank comments (and compliments).

And, I will try to answer my PMs within 24 hours. My bad.

- Mike
__________________
I am fortunate to have unique press cars delivered weekly, but I own:

'13 Audi Q5 2.0T Quattro 8AT
'86 Porsche 911 Turbo 4MT


Gone, but never forgotten... my E70 X5 35d, E90 335i, E46 330i, E36 328i, E70 X5 3.0si, E53 X5 3.0i.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Read my work as West Coast Editor for Autoblog!
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  #40  
Old 03-18-2012, 09:00 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
I was talking to Propellerhead...

YOU are a way different story.
I know who you were talking to. It changes nothing of what I said.
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  #41  
Old 04-24-2012, 03:09 PM
dreamerx5 dreamerx5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
Standby- I have the entire thread saved and will recreate it for the record... There was a lot of good advice in there that should NOT be lost to others.

I assume hatesand has signed a confidentiality agreement that precludes HIM from making any statements. Doesn't preclude ME.
Got my car Lemoned and BMW has agreed to Purchase car back.
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